Why does T20 only have 9 bosses?

[Deleted]

EN and NH were both developed in Legion beta, share the same armour pieces and its Glory of the Legion raider achivement covers both raids. They are part of the same raid tier, Nighthold was simply delayed by six months to reduce the duration of the end of the expansion content draught we'll be suffering from in a couple of months.

http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=1...-legion-raider

The fact that you're willing to accept EN as its own raid tier is worrying to me, that you would be satisfied with a whole raid tier of only 7 bosses with no tier pieces? Imagine what Blizzard could get away with if more people had your standards.

There is no such god damn thing as raid tiers anymore for old gods sake

It doesn't matter if they share the same achievement...

It's like saying we could get flying day one because we started the progression on the achievement...

Nighthold was released MUCH LATER than Emerald Nightmare...

EN was simply an introductionary raid like Highmaul or Mogu'shan Vaults the first TIER RAID of Legion was Nighthold NOT EN or ToV...

[Deleted]

What models existed in previous expansions?
T20 is a re-imagining of T6, it doesn't actually use any of the same models

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"I have this source, but I won't actually link it"
- You, just now

Actually I don't care if you want to live in oblivion. It's not my job to educate you

Also I am writing from my iPad. It's hell to find and post links from it.

If you want to take part in these kind of discussions it's your own responsibility to have all the info before posting nonsense

[mrinvisable2]

shouldnt there be 1 additional boss but they couldnt get tech to work till start, so they scraped 10th boss

[SenpaiDean]

Raid tiers in the last 5 years have had an average of 15 raid bosses per tier. However the latest tier, T20, is 40% below average, with only 9 raid bosses.

T20 - 9 bosses
T19 - 20 bosses
T18 - 13 bosses
T17 - 17 bosses
T16 - 14 bosses
T15 - 12 bosses
T14 - 16 bosses

And this trend seems to be continuing with T21 which is only offering a pitiful 11 raid bosses. Which should be very alarming for any raider out there.

What is the reason for the sudden reduction in raid content? What is Blizzard planning to do to rectify this situation?

9 bosses means the next expansion is closer than you think. and this tier isnt going to last over a year like hfc and siege

[Deleted]

There is no such god damn thing as raid tiers anymore for old gods sake

It doesn't matter if they share the same achievement...

It's like saying we could get flying day one because we started the progression on the achievement...

Nighthold was released MUCH LATER than Emerald Nightmare...

EN was simply an introductionary raid like Highmaul or Mogu'shan Vaults the first TIER RAID of Legion was Nighthold NOT EN or ToV...

NH being released later has no bearing on whether or not it's part of the same raid tier. The two raids sharing achievements, gear, tier gear as well as development and testing does.

[Bloodmagix]

Because most people don't even reach the end of Mythic now? Idk.

[Twilight Cultist]

What is the reason for the sudden reduction in raid content? What is Blizzard planning to do to rectify this situation?

I've made a post related to this over a year ago. There has been no reduction in content.

It is pretty obvious that new dungeons pretty much equals smaller raids. In TBC there was 1 new dungeon, along with a 5 boss raid. WotLK launched with only 2 new bosses (Sarth and Malygos) along with scaled up old raid. Then we got the amazing raid that was Ulduar. After that we got 1 new dungeon that takes place in a single arena, along with a 5 boss raid that takes place in that exact same arena plus an extra room for the final boss. We then got 3 new dungeons and a large raid. But the only reason we were able to get those new dungeons was because they put very little resources into Naxx/ToC.

Now moving on to Cata. It launches with 3 raids with a total of 13 bosses. After that we get a rehashed ZA and a completely remade ZG in 4.1. In 4.2, we get a 7 boss raid. And then to finish it off, we get 3 new dungeons with an 8 boss raid.

Now lets look at MoP and WoD. No new dungeons throughout both expansions, but all raids had 12+ bosses.

TBC

Raid Bosses: 41
New Dungeon Bosses: 4

Total Bosses: 45

Wrath

Raid Bosses: 34 (excluding Naxx)
New Dungeon Bosses: 11

Total Bosses: 45

Cata

Raid Bosses: 28
New Dungeon Bosses: 17 (excluding ZA)

Total Bosses: 45

MoP

Raid Bosses: 43

Total Bosses: 43

WoD

Raid Bosses: 30

Total Bosses: 30

Now lets look at Legion. Karazhan. It is more like ZG than ZA from back in Cata because it is a complete remake. Even the Lower Kara bosses are different from their TBC counterparts. They have the same name and abilities are inspired by their old versions, but they are very different mechanically. Opera is completely different (which can be considered 3 different encounters).

Legion

Raid Bosses: 40

New Dungeon Bosses: 19 (if Opera is considered as 3 separate encounters). 17 (if Opera is considered as 1 encounter)

Total Bosses: 59 (57)

Now, that is significantly more than any previous expansion. But look back at WoD. 30 total bosses.

WoD/Legion Total Boss Average: 44.5 (43.5)

The pattern is the same.

[Deleted]

Not sure if trolling you you're <I don't want to get banned for using this word>

Karazhan + Maghteridon's lair + Gruuls Lair are one TIER because loot drops with SAME ILVL and you can find TIER PIECES there

Terrace of the Endless Springs + Heart od Fear are one TIER because loot drops with SAME ILVL and you can find TIER PIECES

Emerald Nightmare is NOT ONE TIER with Nighthold because they drop DIFFERENT ILVL OF LOOT and Nighthold was RELEASED MUCH LATER and DROPS TIER PIECES

Blizzard started delaying raids with MoP. Since WoD that meant that the raids in the same tier have slightly different itemlevels because otherwise delaying them would've caused certain issues, like the delayed raid would not give good rewards anymore. They are still part of the same raid tier.

I mean otherwise it would've been that Highmaul was Tier 17, Blackrock Foundry Tier 18, Hellfire Citadel Tier 19, Emerald Nightmare Tier 20, Nighthold Tier 21, Tomb of Sargeras Tier 22 and Antorus Tier 23. That's not the case though. ToS isn't referred to as Tier 22, but Tier 20.

[Argorwal]

Starting in MoP Blizzard changed the raid model. They release a first raid that doesn't have gear with set bonuses first, and then release subsequent raids with tier.

If you want to compare bossed it should be total, and Legion is looking to end with 40 raid bosses which is pretty high amount, especially when you consider wrath Naxx added 15 bosses with 0 art assets.

[Deleted]

I know you get picked on a lot on these forums so I'm gonna be nice to you for once and tell you that the source is Ion. It's from before gamescon. Think it was when they where discussing patch 7.2. He says that raid tiers are a player made concept that they don't use.

I'm not gonna find it for you but it's spread plenty around these forums.

Stop embarrassing yourself

1) Source
2) They need to refer to the tiers as something just to have a way of understanding what they are talking about... Tier 11 just sounds sexier than "the first Cataclysm tier" or "BoT, BWD and Tot4W"... I'm sure there are examples of them using that exact same terminology

[babyback]

1) Source
2) They need to refer to the tiers as something just to have a way of understanding what they are talking about... Tier 11 just sounds sexier than "the first Cataclysm tier" or "BoT, BWD and Tot4W"... I'm sure there are examples of them using that exact same terminology

I can't confirm or deny what terminology Blizzard use themselves but calling a raid 'tier' is an old MMORPG term that I first came across in Everquest. Maybe it was used before that.

In Everquest tiers was referred to as raids and not the loot. In those raid tier you earned loot from example raid tier 3. Ergo called tier 3 loot.

[Deleted]

I forgot about Rda as well. Nearly 14,000 posts and not a kind word to be found. He's in the other thread right now complaining about greedy Blizz adding another pet to the store.

Yeah, saw that too, didnt even read a single post, blaming blizzard for puting stuff for real money, that add nothing to the game, I think is almost as stupid, as caling blizzard lazy, for puting more bosses this expansion and new content.

[Roshar]

Counting EN, ToV, and Nighthold as one raid tier ROFL.

[BrioWoW]

Problem with ToS is the fights suck.

[cparle87]

Yeah, saw that too, didnt even read a single post, blaming blizzard for puting stuff for real money, that add nothing to the game, I think is almost as stupid, as caling blizzard lazy, for puting more bosses this expansion and new content.

Yeah, apparently the new buzz against the pet is that the money is being given to a "shady ass organization", their words, like the American Red Cross.

[Kazlofski]

I'd rather they NOT crap out poorly designed, poorly tuned filler raids like Trial of Valor just to up boss count, TYVM.

To each his own, I think Trial of Valor has the best encounters in Legion raiding (Well Odyn and Helya to be exact, Guarm is meh of course)

[Argorwal]

Problem with ToS is the fights suck.

Aka ToS is too hard for my guild.

[Zyky]

Maybe you should also complain T19 had too many ...

I mean if you want to be technical his numbers are mostly skewed for example EN and ToV weren't part of T19, Highmaul wasn't part of T17, ect going backwards.

[Deleted]

1) Source
2) They need to refer to the tiers as something just to have a way of understanding what they are talking about... Tier 11 just sounds sexier than "the first Cataclysm tier" or "BoT, BWD and Tot4W"... I'm sure there are examples of them using that exact same terminology

There might very well be examples of them using the terminology in earlier expansions but it just doesn't apply anymore.
If you view them all as seperate raids, maybe unless they where released together, then it all makes more sense here inLegion. I'm at my pic in an hour and i will try and find the interview where Ion explains it

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NH being released later has no bearing on whether or not it's part of the same raid tier. The two raids sharing achievements, gear, tier gear as well as development and testing does.

EN and nighthold do not share gear or tier gear. You can want them to be a part of the same tier all you want, but that's not the way Blizzard sees it. Just know that

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The idea that tiers do not exist is peculiar. It is clear that some raids belong to the same set (Cata release raids, HoF and ToES). It would be fair to say that EN and ToV at least belong together.

A tier that has a small number of bosses like ToS often will suffer with poor difficulty scaling. It is fairly bad in ToS and it was even worse in Firelands (where boss difficulty was in completely random order with the penultimate being one of the easiest bosses on HC and Ragnaros being far harder than everything else).

I agree it's clear that some raids belong together. Like EN and ToV. But the term is player made and is often used wrongly. Like for example a tier of raids is the same until one has tier gear.

[ro9ue]

Quality > Quantity.

Otherwise you get them just fudging in bosses with overdone mechanics (fire puddles/tank swap) to fit a bullshit quota.