Net nerf for Havoc next week

[oneclosetothesun]

It does not matter if i parse @95 percentile or 75 or 50. Most dps specs currently out there will do bigger numbers at the same percentile, and the specs that do even worse than us, have better spec to switch to if they so desire. I don't think there are a lot of people here who claim to play perfectly. no one does.

Well it might kinda mean that the problem is in you and not the class. However, and I already mention this before, people keep forgetting there are more factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay. And that's why they should use WCL and SIMS more informative, not written in the stone!!!

And then again, unless you belong to the world elite, there are fair gaps in players skill. If you happen to not being exactly at the top of dps meter in your raid, it might as well be because of you have someone else playing really well, not even you being bad, or your class.

I can be first on ST fights, if I am not, I did underperformed, RNG rekt me with mechanics/crit or someone else just happen to have really good pull. It has nothing to do with class design.

You guys are so negative, I was trying to talk some sense into you, but I am really starting to feel sorry for you. How you ever gonna improve yourself, if you go raid with this "my class is bad it's ok to have low dps" in your mind. Just play what you like then and stop QQ on forums. Do you like to be first on logs in dps for entire raid? No problem go ahead and reroll boomie, but should I meet you in raid on pure ST fight with my DH, I am gonna send you straight to druid forums to QQ, that your spec suck in ST fights.
Or you like to have wings, beaming stuff and turning into demon... *drop mic*

[Shutyertrap]

Well it might kinda mean that the problem is in you and not the class. However, and I already mention this before, people keep forgetting there are more factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay. And that's why they should use WCL and SIMS more informative, not written in the stone!!!

There is too much wrong in what you said here, so I didn't even make it past the above quote. SIMs and WCL are THE only objective measurement tool we have to benchmark for class performance. They are not the most accurate (RNG can make a spec show as top dps for a given encounter), but they DO take into these " factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay" because your dps varies because of those factors. If you ignore these logs/sims then you are down to anecdotal " oh I see DHs at the top of meters all the time, so they must be good " situation.. or you are putting blind faith in blizzard devs for class balance, and they have been wrong so many times before that it is laughable.

I don't think you are thinking this through. When I parse 95% and do the same dps as a warlock or hunter parsing 78% then there is something wrong with the spec and not with me.

[Shirofune]

Well it might kinda mean that the problem is in you and not the class. However, and I already mention this before, people keep forgetting there are more factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay. And that's why they should use WCL and SIMS more informative, not written in the stone!!!

And then again, unless you belong to the world elite, there are fair gaps in players skill. If you happen to not being exactly at the top of dps meter in your raid, it might as well be because of you have someone else playing really well, not even you being bad, or your class.

I can be first on ST fights, if I am not, I did underperformed, RNG rekt me with mechanics/crit or someone else just happen to have really good pull. It has nothing to do with class design.

You guys are so negative, I was trying to talk some sense into you, but I am really starting to feel sorry for you. How you ever gonna improve yourself, if you go raid with this "my class is bad it's ok to have low dps" in your mind. Just play what you like then and stop QQ on forums. Do you like to be first on logs in dps for entire raid? No problem go ahead and reroll boomie, but should I meet you in raid on pure ST fight with my DH, I am gonna send you straight to druid forums to QQ, that your spec suck in ST fights.
Or you like to have wings, beaming stuff and turning into demon... *drop mic*

Your mentality is fine and so on, but you're still wrong.

It's true we shouldn't use sims as something that's set on stone because sims can't replicate boss mechanics perfectly, but what they do, is show how classes perform on ST on a boss with no mechanics and 100% uptime.

That alone should give us a very good idea on how are classes balanced.

Now, if you go to logs and check actual data gathered from players in the actual raid, you'll see that in bosses in which ST is predominant, like f.e. Goroth or Sisters, we're at best mid-pack.

As I said, it's fine going into the raid thinking you should do your best and so on, but there's no discussion atm that we're not at the level of other classes.

We're not even talking about cleave/AoE, of course. We're just bad at everything and average at ST, and that's a fact at this point.

[Deleted]

Right, being sat out even on heroic progress by a guild because why take DH over everything else it sucks.

I don't think that the spec is the reason, you can clear heroic with - whatever - and get curve.

[aGit]

Well it might kinda mean that the problem is in you and not the class. However, and I already mention this before, people keep forgetting there are more factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay. And that's why they should use WCL and SIMS more informative, not written in the stone!!!

And then again, unless you belong to the world elite, there are fair gaps in players skill. If you happen to not being exactly at the top of dps meter in your raid, it might as well be because of you have someone else playing really well, not even you being bad, or your class.

I can be first on ST fights, if I am not, I did underperformed, RNG rekt me with mechanics/crit or someone else just happen to have really good pull. It has nothing to do with class design.

You are looking at this subjectively and not the big picture. Your personal anecdotes mean absolutely nothing. In WCL, you can assume equal skill level, on your personal dps meters you cannot. Due to the nature of our single target damage burst, mythic maiden is the only encounter in ToS that we are topping the charts and even that requires some luck with the orb stacks.

Edit: i don't mean to imply that we should top all of them, or even any of them. i just don't like being the dead last spec with no alternative specs to switch to

You guys are so negative, I was trying to talk some sense into you, but I am really starting to feel sorry for you. How you ever gonna improve yourself, if you go raid with this "my class is bad it's ok to have low dps" in your mind. Just play what you like then and stop QQ on forums. Do you like to be first on logs in dps for entire raid? No problem go ahead and reroll boomie, but should I meet you in raid on pure ST fight with my DH, I am gonna send you straight to druid forums to QQ, that your spec suck in ST fights.
Or you like to have wings, beaming stuff and turning into demon... *drop mic*

Jesus christ you're thick. Nothing in this thread has anything to do with a players ability to play the game or will to improve. Take mistress sassz'ine, a DH at 90 percentile is doing the dps of a warlock @ 20 percentile. Now tell me there is not something wrong with that? There are many encounters like this in ToS. If the DH played perfectly, executed every fel rush in a perfect manner, timed every blade dance to maximize cleave, without missing a single BD in the encounter, he would still be nowhere near any of the other classes who actually manage to do cleave dps. Yet, your argument in every single post in this thread is "play better and improve!", which is a nice sentiment but utterly unimportant to the subject at hand. Assuming equal skill level, gear and rng, DHs are doing a lot less dps than most other classes. No amount of soul searching, meditating and l2p sessions will currently change that.

[HeiAggra]

You are looking at this subjectively and not the big picture. Your personal anecdotes mean absolutely nothing. In WCL, you can assume equal skill level, on your personal dps meters you cannot. Due to the nature of our single target damage burst, mythic maiden is the only encounter in ToS that we are topping the charts and even that requires some luck with the orb stacks.

Edit: i don't mean to imply that we should top all of them, or even any of them. i just don't like being the dead last spec with no alternative specs to switch to



Jesus christ you're thick. Nothing in this thread has anything to do with a players ability to play the game or will to improve. Take mistress sassz'ine, a DH at 90 percentile is doing the dps of a warlock @ 20 percentile. Now tell me there is not something wrong with that? There are many encounters like this in ToS. If the DH played perfectly, executed every fel rush in a perfect manner, timed every blade dance to maximize cleave, without missing a single BD in the encounter, he would still be nowhere near any of the other classes who actually manage to do cleave dps. Yet, your argument in every single post in this thread is "play better and improve!", which is a nice sentiment but utterly unimportant to the subject at hand. Assuming equal skill level, gear and rng, DHs are doing a lot less dps than most other classes. No amount of soul searching, meditating and l2p sessions will currently change that.

This is so true!
I defend play what you enjoy but it's true that if a DH goes 90+ on logs witch is not bad we are outdpsed by classes doing 50 or 60 like Bommie, Arms, UH Dk, Locks, Rogues and so on... it's not cool.
Usually in my raid im top 3 dps in 7 fights because i have to put more effort, more AP farmed, i have to study the fights 3 times more and think when i should use my cd's to max the dps while other just hit flashing stuff.
I will stick with my DH because i enjoy the class, it's fast paced, great mobility and we TURN into badass DEMONS!

[BoomX2]

If you're in a casual guild, then your guild won't care which spec you play

[ssviolett]

If you're in a casual guild, then your guild won't care which spec you play

Right. But they do care about dps\hps you perform.

[Deleted]

Don't worry boys, I bet we're getting more nerfs next patch! Yee baby! Gotta kill off all DHs before next expac comes! Who needs DHs when Burning Legion is gone, right?

[HeiAggra]

Don't worry boys, I bet we're getting more nerfs next patch! Yee baby! Gotta kill off all DHs before next expac comes! Who needs DHs when Burning Legion is gone, right?

Sorry could not resist hehehe

[neocount]

When they killed the momentum spec, I lost interest in WoW altogether. I was having a blast with it in raiding. Now it's not a viable raiding spec, so no reason for me to play.

[HeiAggra]

When they killed the momentum spec, I lost interest in WoW altogether. I was having a blast with it in raiding. Now it's not a viable raiding spec, so no reason for me to play.

It was fun like hell true but in raid as they are designed now it's just to possible to use the momentum build. Oh the panic on Maiden hehehe

[Deleted]

After reading all this, I feel like the biggest asshole with my 945 moonglaives. Sad though, that even with them it's hard to out-dps certain classes on aoe bosses.

[aGit]

If you're in a casual guild, then your guild won't care which spec you play

this is true, i can always respec to one of the other DH dps specs that aren't bottom of the barrel.

jokes aside, we raid 3x3h a week and are currently progressing M kiljaeden, most of us don't have geared alts to hop on to. Your argument is really silly when the encounter design requires certain amount of dps/hps just to meet requirements.

[Deix-EU]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

See what I did there ?

[Delandel]

It was fun like hell true but in raid as they are designed now it's just to possible to use the momentum build. Oh the panic on Maiden hehehe

I agree there's a couple bosses where Momentum is just a bad idea. However I'd argue most bosses it's fine; at least where my guild is at in 4/9 M ToS, only Sisters would it be at all annoying. Maiden probably not possible, but everything else seems fine?

I wish Momentum was just as viable as the current spec. Then we could actually swap between the two specs depending on the fight. As a Fire Mage main it's normal for me to swap talents from fight to fight, but for Havoc it's the same talents every time. You'd think a class with a single DPS spec would have more variety?

[Pigglix]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

See what I did there ?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

See what i did there ?

Am i playing this right?

[BiggestNoob]

After reading all this, I feel like the biggest asshole with my 945 moonglaives. Sad though, that even with them it's hard to out-dps certain classes on aoe bosses.

I have 950, still rerolling.

[Deleted]

If DHs were so bad people would have rerolled.

Havoc is still the most played melee spec in mythic raids and even on Fallen Avatar mythic there are still more Havocs than Unholy+Frost DKs combined (only rogues and warrs ahead).
There are currently more DHs than Enhancers, ferals, windwalkers combined...

Additionally high mobility + immunity = high raid utility. Our DH has to solo soak at Goroth, handle mistress ink, solo soak on FA. Stuff, which often costs dps but is very important to kill the boss (often more important than cleave damage).

- - - Updated - - -

There is too much wrong in what you said here, so I didn't even make it past the above quote. SIMs and WCL are THE only objective measurement tool we have to benchmark for class performance. They are not the most accurate (RNG can make a spec show as top dps for a given encounter), but they DO take into these " factors to be taken in count when it comes to actual gameplay" because your dps varies because of those factors. If you ignore these logs/sims then you are down to anecdotal " oh I see DHs at the top of meters all the time, so they must be good " situation.. or you are putting blind faith in blizzard devs for class balance, and they have been wrong so many times before that it is laughable.

I don't think you are thinking this through. When I parse 95% and do the same dps as a warlock or hunter parsing 78% then there is something wrong with the spec and not with me.

What actually matters the most is the whole package. Top guilds gravirate to whats best for the raid, including rerolls. I followed enhancers population. At the beginning of NH, there were as many enhancers as arms+fury combined. At the end of NH it was 4 times more warrs than enhancers.

This isnt happening currently. If i look at warcraftlogs and KJ mythic, there are still more Havocs than Enhancers+Windwalkers+Ferals+Retpalas (+fury+outlaw+frost) combined...

The single target is still high, but the utility is still huge. Thats the reason why highend guilds still prefer Havocs over anything but rogues and warriors atm.

[HeiAggra]

I agree there's a couple bosses where Momentum is just a bad idea. However I'd argue most bosses it's fine; at least where my guild is at in 4/9 M ToS, only Sisters would it be at all annoying. Maiden probably not possible, but everything else seems fine?

I wish Momentum was just as viable as the current spec. Then we could actually swap between the two specs depending on the fight. As a Fire Mage main it's normal for me to swap talents from fight to fight, but for Havoc it's the same talents every time. You'd think a class with a single DPS spec would have more variety?

The problem is momentum build is build around you spend your movement to increase the dps! in Goroth if you would rush to active the buff and then had to run back a pillar o run away from the raid you could be to far away and die.
Demonic I, cant see that boss working for momento build
Harjatan maybe it would work! Not to problematic.
The naga, i forgot her name Lady gellyfish not going to happen. Moment is a big no for that one.
Sister also no you need movement to change sides and to avoid shit.
EoSouls: Some mecanics need those rush available, you could run and kill half of the raid.
Avator could work more or less i think.
Kiljaden big no!

They would need to rework the momento thing i enjoyed it in EN and ToV.