Trumpcare Back From Dead Again: Cassidy-Graham Cruelest Version Yet, Has 49 Votes

[Breccia]

The AARP reports that, under TrumpCare 4.0, that older low-income Americans will pay $16,000 more per year.

Unless they're in Alaska. Then it's double that.

[Eliandal]

The AARP reports that, under TrumpCare 4.0, that older low-income Americans will pay $16,000 more per year.

Unless they're in Alaska. Then it's double that.

Just imagine if you have cancer, and have to renew....now it's $150 000 !

It saddens me that you guys have to go through this YET AGAIN

[Glnger]

Just imagine if you have cancer, and have to renew....now it's $150 000 !

It saddens me that you guys have to go through this YET AGAIN

we're being terrorized by our government.

[Toogoodman]

The solution to the enormous Health Care problems in this country is not to pour federal taxpayer dollars on it. Exactly when is enough enough? Healthcare spending in the budget grows and grows, usually at twice the rate of the rest of the budget. When sequenstration hit four years ago, Healthcare grew when everything else suffered a cut. My favorite number ever is that over the last few years, Medicare grew at such a rate that it added three NASA's worth of spending to it's budget.

It. Must. Stop.

THat's why I laugh when people say dreamy things about NASA. You want to explore space? Sure. First, we gotta cut old sick people off the federal teat. The money's there. An ocean of it. We just spend it on the old.

That is not to say that Grandma can't get her pills. She should. But getting out the credit card to pay for it and cutting back on everything else is not a solution. Taxing more to pay for it, is not a solution. It grows and grows, and the cost curve bends what... a few percent here and there? Back slapping for a few percent change that gets erased in 2019 anyway? It's a fucking joke.

No. No more. Everyone should have access to healthcare. Period. But we have things just as important as that. Infrastructure. Education. Scientific research. Buying weapons. Healthcare should be a thing government plays a role in, but it is not and should not be the purpose of government. As a function of government spending, it might as well be.

A budget is a list of priorities, not a wish list, and Obamacare is executed via a budget. It exists on that list of priorities, along with many other things. It gets it fair share, and not one, cent more.

You want to spend more lavishly? You got a bank account. You pay for it. Me? I want my government buying more SpaceX rockets, paying for more AI research, giving more grants to college students, building more highways and buying more cruise missiles. Grandma's pills share the bag of money with things just as important.

I would actually have to agree with you here. The thing is, I see people here saying we need a single payer system, because the "GoP is trying to kill me". Thing is, under a single payer system, it would be EXTREMELY difficult in the US. There is an insanely large number of obese individuals that other countries with single payer system simply dont have. Having such an obese populace on a single payer system would probably being ridiculously expensive, because what the "anti-body shamers" dont tell you is the insane amount of illnesses and diseases that come with obesity.

1) Heart disease (currently the #1 killer in the USA)
2) Weakened immune system, leading to more illnesses
3) Hyper Tension
4) Organ damage
5) Higher chances of cancer

This is also why the US spends so damn much in the first place on healthcare, because our populace is disgustingly unhealthy. Things we need to fix before a single payer system would be implemented would be:

1) Extreme regulations on fast food and restaurant industry (better ingredients, smaller serving sizes)
2) Campaign for healthier lifestyles, less carbs, less fucking candy, no more fucking BIG GULPS
3) Stop this "fat is okay" bullshit were spreading, because its not, if you're obese you take up a disproportionate amount of health care from others, sometimes 5-10x more, that's not how a "fair society" works.

If we don't fix these things, and we go to a single payer system, people who have "inflicted" damage to themselves should simply not be included This goes for drunks, drug addicts, smokers, obese people who dont have medical issue that caused it... etc. Sounds heartless? Try tripling the budget of a Canadian system because we have to pay WAY more per capita because people need their smokes and 15 big gulps a day.

[cubby]

Stinks of desperation. Besides all the usual people against it -- you know, medical professionals and organizations -- Rand Paul has come out against it. No really, he fucking hates it. Based on what's in and what's out, I don't expect the best band name ever "McCain and the Women" to vote yes, either.

It also faces opposition by the hard conservatives of the House as well, as it is "Obamacare Lite".

And then, even if it passes, the Senators and Reps get to explain to their voters why they just took their health care.

If the GOP wants to do something, it's clear they need to move quickly. Pushing the budget and debt ceiling off the table for 3 months helps, but this still comes at a time when there's a fair amount going on. The CBO could really slap their shit around by dragging their feet for a day or two before coming out with the same scathing report on this health care cut -- that's what it is, a cut -- that they gave to everything else the GOP came up with.

McCain and the Women indeed. No way McCain, who will die very soon, is going to have his legacy smeared by voting to kill millions of people. I wouldn't be surprised if he walks on the floor to vote and takes a lighter to the bill, literally.

[Kujako]

Rand Paul has come out against it.

Rand Paul is against it for the same reason he was against the previous bills, it doesn't kill enough poor people.

[Vyuvarax]

I would actually have to agree with you here. The thing is, I see people here saying we need a single payer system, because the "GoP is trying to kill me". Thing is, under a single payer system, it would be EXTREMELY difficult in the US. There is an insanely large number of obese individuals that other countries with single payer system simply dont have. Having such an obese populace on a single payer system would probably being ridiculously expensive, because what the "anti-body shamers" dont tell you is the insane amount of illnesses and diseases that come with obesity.

1) Heart disease (currently the #1 killer in the USA)
2) Weakened immune system, leading to more illnesses
3) Hyper Tension
4) Organ damage
5) Higher chances of cancer

This is also why the US spends so damn much in the first place on healthcare, because our populace is disgustingly unhealthy. Things we need to fix before a single payer system would be implemented would be:

1) Extreme regulations on fast food and restaurant industry (better ingredients, smaller serving sizes)
2) Campaign for healthier lifestyles, less carbs, less fucking candy, no more fucking BIG GULPS
3) Stop this "fat is okay" bullshit were spreading, because its not, if you're obese you take up a disproportionate amount of health care from others, sometimes 5-10x more, that's not how a "fair society" works.

If we don't fix these things, and we go to a single payer system, people who have "inflicted" damage to themselves should simply not be included This goes for drunks, drug addicts, smokers, obese people who dont have medical issue that caused it... etc. Sounds heartless? Try tripling the budget of a Canadian system because we have to pay WAY more per capita because people need their smokes and 15 big gulps a day.

I think this approach is fraught with questions about where you draw the line. Do you, for example, deny medical treatment to a kid who acted irresponsibly by climbing and playing in a tree, fell, and broke his arm? Your approach seems at anything but a cursory glance to be incredibly short sighted.

[Toogoodman]

I think this approach is fraught with questions about where you draw the line. Do you, for example, deny medical treatment who acted irresponsibly by climbing and playing in a tree, fell, and broke his arm? Your approach seems at anything but a cursory glance to be incredibly short sighted.

Do you deny the US has an obesity epidemic?

Rank Country Percentage of population
1 Palau 47.10%
2 Nauru 45.10%
3 Marshall Islands 42.30%
4 Samoa 41.60%
5 Tonga 41.10%
6 Qatar 41.00%
7 Kiribati 40.10%
8 Tuvalu 39.60%
9 Kuwait 38.30%
10 Bahamas, The 36.60%
11 Fiji 35.90%
12 United States 35.00%
13 United Arab Emirates 34.50%
14 Bahrain 34.10%
15 Saudi Arabia 33.70%
16 Barbados 33.20%
17 Micronesia, Federated States of 33.20%
18 Vanuatu 32.90%
19 Trinidad and Tobago 32.30%
20 Andorra 32.10%

35% would be the entire country, when you get away from the coasts the # goes into the 40s and 50s. No European country that uses a single payer system shows up until close to the bottom of the list. I 100% want a single payer system, but with how people woefully shit on their own bodies, how do you expect to work? A lot of times the people who are morbidly obese cant even work, so on top of them taking a massively disproportionate amount of healthcare, they aren't even contributing into the system at all (since single payer systems are paid for by tax dollars). This is a big problem to think about, and probably one that could be the most disastrous, this is how a system can fail under its own weight.

Also, the second part of the first post was obviously satire, a large % of drug addicts and alcoholics have mental illness, however smokers are just fucking idiots. For us to "buy into" a society driven healthcare system, society needs to be accountable for its own actions, and that starts with actually being healthy.

[Vyuvarax]

Do you deny the US has an obsity epidemic?

It doesn't matter if I agree the US has an obsity epidemic or not. This absurdly long post didn't even address my single rebuttal to your claim. Your entire response is therefore a strawman. Please address how you decide to punish those who are fat due to being irresponsible and not those who injure themselves due to being irresponsible.

[Toogoodman]

It doesn't matter if I agree the US has an obsity epidemic or not. This absurdly long post didn't even address my single rebuttal to your claim. Your entire response is therefore a strawman. Please address how you decide to punish those who are fat due to being irresponsible and not those who injure themselves due to being irresponsible.

Okay, people are out being active are doing something completely different than someone who sits around, doing nothing, while stuffing their face with 1000s of empty calories. Do i think people should be punished for climbing trees? why would we? thats an essential part of growing up, or if its their job to cut down dying trees, cant fault them for that. People rock climbing? theyre out doing what they love, and be active living a healthy and sustainable life style. The big difference her is this, maybe 1 out of 1000 people doing these activities will get hurt, but being morbidly obese WILL cause long term health issues, its not an if, its an eventuality. Is someone being chubby a problem? not really, or even a little fat, but obesity, by definition is greater than 30% body fat, is willfully destroying your own health, while being physically active 95% of the time leads to better quality of life.

I hope that answers your question, also, you should ready my "long straw man", as it is very relevant.

[Felya]

Okay, people are out being active are doing something completely different than someone who sits around, doing nothing, while stuffing their face with 1000s of empty calories. Do i think people should be punished for climbing trees? why would we? thats an essential part of growing up, or if its their job to cut down dying trees, cant fault them for that. People rock climbing? theyre out doing what they love, and be active living a healthy and sustainable life style. The big difference her is this, maybe 1 out of 1000 people doing these activities will get hurt, but being morbidly obese WILL cause long term health issues, its not an if, its an eventuality. Is someone being chubby a problem? not really, or even a little fat, but obesity, by definition is greater than 30% body fat, is willfully destroying your own health, while being physically active 95% of the time leads to better quality of life.

I hope that answers your question, also, you should ready my "long straw man", as it is very relevant.

It's not relevant to his current point and you are building a straw man. How do you punish people for injury? Not just injury because they are living an active life style. Include those who imitate jack ass and those who think they are master crafts man. How do you punish willful carelessness of being obese and not willful carelessness of acting like a moron?

[Vyuvarax]

Okay, people are out being active are doing something completely different than someone who sits around, doing nothing, while stuffing their face with 1000s of empty calories. Do i think people should be punished for climbing trees? why would we? thats an essential part of growing up, or if its their job to cut down dying trees, cant fault them for that. People rock climbing? theyre out doing what they love, and be active living a healthy and sustainable life style. The big difference her is this, maybe 1 out of 1000 people doing these activities will get hurt, but being morbidly obese WILL cause long term health issues, its not an if, its an eventuality. Is someone being chubby a problem? not really, or even a little fat, but obesity, by definition is greater than 30% body fat, is willfully destroying your own health, while being physically active 95% of the time leads to better quality of life.

I hope that answers your question, also, you should ready my "long straw man", as it is very relevant.

So in your view you can punish people by denying them healthcare due to their lifestyle, but only if it's a lifestyle you view as unacceptable. Seems extremely subjective for making fair laws. Tell me, is someone who is very sexually active and gets HIV worthy of government funded medical care?

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It's not relevant to his current point and you are building a straw man. How do you punish people for injury? Not just injury because they are living an active life style. Include those who imitate jack ass and those who think they are master crafts man. How do you punish willful carelessness of being obese and not willful carelessness of acting like a moron?

Another excellent point about how short sighted this view point is.

[Toogoodman]

It's not relevant to his current point and you are building a straw man. How do you punish people for injury? Not just injury because they are living an active life style. Include those who imitate jack ass and those who think they are master crafts man. How do you punish willful carelessness of being obese and not willful carelessness of acting like a moron?

How many people "imitate jackass" vs the obese population? That's like saying "we should cut welfare because all poor people are drug addicts", which is false. In "countering" my "straw man", you rebuttal with one yourself, congratulations. Punishing people for being reckless? I don't think that would be necessary considering there would be such a small handful of cases, as opposed to over 1/3rd of the population....

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So in your view you can punish people by denying them healthcare due to their lifestyle, but only if it's a lifestyle you view as unacceptable. Seems extremely subjective for making fair laws. Tell me, is someone who is very sexually active and gets HIV worthy of government funded medical care?

Another excellent point about how short sighted this view point is.

I am going to assume you missed the entire part of the second half of the original post be satire, my main argument being, for single payer to work (a system i want), our populace needs to be healthier, or else we risk bankrupting the society.... I see that you just simply dont care about that, and wish to push the typical "fat shaming" narrative or "their life choices". Sorry to say, however, that when you make the society as a whole pay for their "personal choices" it becomes more than their problem, it becomes everyones problem. Why would you be against a healthier population? are big gulps and cheetos so important to you that you would risk death to have them?

[Vyuvarax]

How many people "imitate jackass" vs the obese population? That's like saying "we should cut welfare because all poor people are drug addicts", which is false. In "countering" my "straw man", you rebuttal with one yourself, congratulations. Punishing people for being reckless? I don't think that would be necessary considering there would be such a small handful of cases, as opposed to over 1/3rd of the population....

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I am going to assume you missed the entire part of the second half of the original post be satire, my main argument being, for single payer to work (a system i want), our populace needs to be healthier, or else we risk bankrupting the society.... I see that you just simply dont care about that, and wish to push the typical "fat shaming" narrative or "their life choices". Sorry to say, however, that when you make the society as a whole pay for their "personal choices" it becomes more than their problem, it becomes everyones problem. Why would you be against a healthier population? are big gulps and cheetos so important to you that you would risk death to have them?

Why are you so dedicated to obfuscation instead of answering simple questions? As has been pointed out by myself and others, the premise of your "we can't have single payer if there's too many fat people" claim is illogical if you ignore all these logical inconsistencies that I and others have raised. No one has missed any point of yours. Your position is simply not very well thought out or nuanced like you've convinced yourself it is.

The U.S. simply pays way more for simple medical practices than other countries do because of how medical practioners can upcharge insurance companies. Solve that and the cost of taking care of all these people you dislike is far, far lower than how much of a deal you're making.

[Toogoodman]

Why are you so dedicated to obfuscation instead of answering simple questions? As has been pointed out by myself and others, the premise of your "we can't have single payer if there's too many fat people" claim is illogical if you ignore all these logical inconsistencies that I and others have raised. No one has missed any point of yours. Your position is simply not very well thought out or nuanced like you've convinced yourself it is.

The U.S. simply pays way more for simple medical practices than other countries do because of how medical practioners can upcharge insurance companies. Solve that and the cost of taking care of all these people you dislike is far, far lower than how much of a deal you're making.

I have answered your questions multiple times... You're conflating a tiny fraction of incidents (injuries from "jackass stunts" and injuries from extreme sports) with a 35% Obesity nationwide.

a complex new study says that the lifetime societal and public health cost of obesity is on average $92,235 per person when compared with the costs associated with a person of normal weight.
Citation: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/0...s-92235-person

$92,235 additional cost for being obese vs "normal weight", currently there at 78 Million people in the US who are obese, which is body fat % greater than 30%
That would be 719 Billion additional dollars spent on our population for simply being obese, due to the slew of complications that comes with it, thats just ADDITIONAL costs, that is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money because people are obese. Conflating an extremely small minority of sports injuries to nearly the majority of the populations that obese is insane.

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I do agree however that the cost of medical treatment is ridiculously high, but there are so many factors that go into that... Cost of medical school, cost of facilities, cost of RnD for drugs and treatments, cost of getting drugs thtrough clinical trials.... etc.

[Vyuvarax]

I have answered your questions multiple times... You're conflating a tiny fraction of incidents (injuries from "jackass stunts" and injuries from extreme sports) with a 35% Obesity nationwide.

a complex new study says that the lifetime societal and public health cost of obesity is on average $92,235 per person when compared with the costs associated with a person of normal weight.
Citation: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/0...s-92235-person

$92,235 additional cost for being obese vs "normal weight", currently there at 78 Million people in the US who are obese, which is body fat % greater than 30%
That would be 719 Billion additional dollars spent on our population for simply being obese, due to the slew of complications that comes with it, thats just ADDITIONAL costs, that is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money because people are obese. Conflating an extremely small minority of sports injuries to nearly the majority of the populations that obese is insane.

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I do agree however that the cost of medical treatment is ridiculously high, but there are so many factors that go into that... Cost of medical school, cost of facilities, cost of RnD for drugs and treatments, cost of getting drugs thtrough clinical trials.... etc.

No you certainly have not addressed why you believe you can punish certain lifestyles and not others. All you've said is the size of those groups was too small to be significant, i.e. the cost of treating someone with HIV might be the same as someone who is obese, but less people have HIV so we can pay for their lifestyle choice but not the obese person's. Your position is immoral and illogical.

[Toogoodman]

No you certainly have not addressed why you believe you can punish certain lifestyles and not others. All you've said is the size of those groups was too small to be significant, i.e. the cost of treating someone with HIV might be the same as someone who is obese, but less people have HIV so we can pay for their lifestyle choice but not the obese person's. Your position is immoral and illogical.

Okay, you have to be trolling at this point, I never said "punish obese people", i said

If we don't fix these things, and we go to a single payer system, people who have "inflicted" damage to themselves should simply not be included This goes for drunks, drug addicts, smokers, obese people who dont have medical issue that caused it... etc.

Which was clearly satire, because I believe that with the state of our nations health, there is no way could implement single payer. Unfortunately with something like single payer, you have to allocate resources, because there is only a finite amount. you might think its immoral, but isnt it immoral to consume far more than you put into a system? What defines the morality in this situation? Breaking an arm? thats what health care is for, a life time of medical care due to your body rapidly deteriorating due to food consumption? thats immoral.

[DarkTZeratul]

Which was clearly satire

And yet it took you what, six posts worth of obfuscation and deflection to say that?

[Vyuvarax]

Okay, you have to be trolling at this point, I never said "punish obese people", i said

If we don't fix these things, and we go to a single payer system, people who have "inflicted" damage to themselves should simply not be included This goes for drunks, drug addicts, smokers, obese people who dont have medical issue that caused it... etc.

Which was clearly satire, because I believe that with the state of our nations health, there is no way could implement single payer. Unfortunately with something like single payer, you have to allocate resources, because there is only a finite amount. you might think its immoral, but isnt it immoral to consume far more than you put into a system? What defines the morality in this situation? Breaking an arm? thats what health care is for, a life time of medical care due to your body rapidly deteriorating due to food consumption? thats immoral.

Lol what part of that is satire when you just reiterate the entire thing as your view one paragraph later?

Also, if it's immoral to consume more than you put into a system, who exactly is left that is moral? Bob, the guy who spends every day composting, planting trees, and not buying any product that releases C02 emissions? Again, your line is 100% arbitrary, inconsistent, and not an impediment for any other developed country to have national healthcare.

[Shkar]

Do you deny the US has an obesity epidemic?

Rank Country Percentage of population
1 Palau 47.10%
2 Nauru 45.10%
3 Marshall Islands 42.30%
4 Samoa 41.60%
5 Tonga 41.10%
6 Qatar 41.00%
7 Kiribati 40.10%
8 Tuvalu 39.60%
9 Kuwait 38.30%
10 Bahamas, The 36.60%
11 Fiji 35.90%
12 United States 35.00%
13 United Arab Emirates 34.50%
14 Bahrain 34.10%
15 Saudi Arabia 33.70%
16 Barbados 33.20%
17 Micronesia, Federated States of 33.20%
18 Vanuatu 32.90%
19 Trinidad and Tobago 32.30%
20 Andorra 32.10%

C'mon man, don't just arbitrarily cut off the list.

21 Libya 31.90%
22 Antigua and Barbuda 31.00%
23 Lebanon 30.80%
24 New Zealand 30.60%
25 Canada 30.10%
26 Australia 29.90%
27 United Kingdom 29.80%
28 Turkey 29.40%
29 Czech Republic 29.10%

(Source)

A ~16% increase in the obesity rate of Canada/UK isn't going to bankrupt us. 30% to 35% just isn't that big of a jump. Yes, it would be far better if said jump wasn't there, but this isn't some astronomical hike.