One Killed, Seven Wounded in Church Shooting in Tennessee

[Ghostpanther]

Even, for all the fans of quoting MOLON LABE, you are aware that Greeks and Romans had extremely stringent laws about weapons in civic places ?

Greeks and Romans? lol. You are speaking of thousands of years ago and when those same societies also had slavery and brutality supreme.

[Draco-Onis]

That depends on your definition of "pretty quickly." The media beat that drum for months.

It was gone from main headlines in a matter of weeks, people always keep reporting about it but it's not big enough of a story to put it upfront.

[Ghostpanther]

damn another terrorist attack...oh wait.....CHRISTIAN dude shooting up his church....never mind....just a nut case!!! at least he was not from the religion of peace right!!

He was not a Christian. They do not do crap like that and still be a Christian. You shall know them by their deeds. People from all religions have done horrible stuff in the name of their religion. There is a huge difference.

[Shalidor]

It was gone from main headlines in a matter of weeks, people always keep reporting about it but it's not big enough of a story to put it upfront.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. You're saying people are still on about Dylan Roof?

[Draco-Onis]

What are you actually talking about with those three points? How much money? To do what? Exactly how strict is this training supposed to be? As far as I know, the NICS background check system is computerized. Are you talking about a national gun registry?

The ATF doesn't have enough staff to keep track of gun sellers, their budget is gutted to the point where they are worthless. I am not talking about a national gun registry I am talking about basic paperwork that keeps track of what gun shops sell, their inventory problem etc all of this right now is being done by hand and on paper. As I said the ATF may as well not exist there is no gun oversight in the US period.

"Fine with kids getting slaughtered [...]" You don't have any respect or empathy for the people you disagree with, do you?

When these things happen over and over again and people say that nothing can be done of course I have no respect for the let's do nothing stance.

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I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. You're saying people are still on about Dylan Roof?

There are always sub headlines no one cares about those, I am disagreeing with you Dylan roof was gone pretty quick from being a main story.

[mireigi]

"Fine with kids getting slaughtered [...]" You don't have any respect or empathy for the people you disagree with, do you?

I don't think it's a lack of empathy, but rather whole-hearted bafflement over some people's reluctance in considering an alternative.

Some years ago, also in the US, a father lost his 8 year old boy, due to, and excuse my language here, dumb crap related to guns. The kid had, at such a low age already been shooting and firing small handguns at his home, with the father watching and supervising. Then, at a gun faire, the kid is allowed to test fire an Uzi. The father is there, the owner/seller of the Uzi is there, and both are watching. Watching as the kid fires the Uzi, can't handle the recoil, and ends up shooting himself in the head.

Now, I get that some fathers, or mothers for that matter, wish to share their hobby with their children. I also find it perfectly reasonable that, under supervision, an 8 year old kid can be allowed to fire small caliber, low-recoil handguns. But when a kid, without any training at all, can be allowed to use and discharge a sub-machinegun, with it being deemed "safe" because he is under supervision, something is wrong. Especially when it is at a crowded place like a faire, and the slightest mishandling the weapon could result in others getting hit, then something is wrong.

So is it a lack of empathy that some people might over-exaggerate something? Probably not. Just bafflement.

Did I, and do I still, feel empathy for the kid's family (from the story above)? Sure I do. But I also believe, regardless of how anyone might feel about the matter, that the father acted stupidly, and was rewarded in kind. He can now spend the rest of his life contemplating the consequences of his actions.

And just so anyone don't think I'm making this up, here is a link to the news article about it back then:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-chri...ry?id=12565132

[Shalidor]

The ATF doesn't have enough staff to keep track of gun sellers, their budget is gutted to the point where they are worthless. I am not talking about a national gun registry I am talking about basic paperwork that keeps track of what gun shops sell, their inventory problem etc all of this right now is being done by hand and on paper. As I said the ATF may as well not exist there is no gun oversight in the US period.

I'm pretty sure at least some of what you said isn't true. The NICS system is all digital. They have all class 3 and FFL on a database. They are keeping track of who sells what, and they use a digital system to do it. I know that for a fact. You say the ATF has no budget; well, how much money do they have? They might very well need more. I don't know what the numbers are there.

As I said the ATF may as well not exist there is no gun oversight in the US period.

Do you live in the US and have you purchased a firearm within the United States before?

When these things happen over and over again and people say that nothing can be done of course I have no respect for the let's do nothing stance.

I don't think people are saying there's nothing that can be done. I just think there are a lot of solutions being floated that a large chunk of the right doesn't much care for. For example, a few years ago, Diane Feinstein floated a new super-Brady bill, something to ban all "assault weapons." The bill targeted long guns, specific kinds of long guns that were used in less than 1% of firearm-related homicides. That bill, which they were touting as the thing that was going to end gun violence, would have made a variety of sporting arms illegal, and would have very likely had no appreciable effect at all. See the Bureau of Justice Statistics for more information.

Another example has been a push to ban high capacity magazines, as in, anything over ten rounds. As many have shown in videos, anyone with a modicum of expertise can do what some people call a "tac reload" and continue spraying led with barely a break in their firing. You can do a "New York" reload and just grab another loaded gun you're carrying. It's not a real solution, and it's still going to come out as a wash anyway because you're hurting people who carry for defensive purposes just as much or as more than mass shooters. Average is 7-10 shots to stop an assailant, for a trained marksman. Most people need more. For that reason, most people who do carry for defensive purpose, carry more than one magazine.

I personally have floated solutions before too, but so far, the only solutions the left seems interested in are ones that prevent defensive carry and blanket-ban all of a certain type of firearm that is almost never used to kill people, vs. the cheap, mass-produced, easily available handguns that are used in most firearm-related homicides. Maybe it's the left who only cares about dead kids insofar as they can use them as a political prop?

There are always sub headlines no one cares about those, I am disagreeing with you Dylan roof was gone pretty quick from being a main story.

I'm pretty sure even those lesser headlines have stopped for quite a while now in most papers...but it was more than a few weeks.

[Zan15]

He was not a Christian. They do not do crap like that and still be a Christian. You shall know them by their deeds. People from all religions have done horrible stuff in the name of their religion. There is a huge difference.

sorry he was a member of that church and a devout Christian.....wait do you mean we have a different definition for them when they are ....say....a guy who is a devout muslim?

[Ghostpanther]

I don't think it's a lack of empathy, but rather whole-hearted bafflement over some people's reluctance in considering an alternative.

Some years ago, also in the US, a father lost his 8 year old boy, due to, and excuse my language here, dumb crap related to guns. The kid had, at such a low age already been shooting and firing small handguns at his home, with the father watching and supervising. Then, at a gun faire, the kid is allowed to test fire an Uzi. The father is there, the owner/seller of the Uzi is there, and both are watching. Watching as the kid fires the Uzi, can't handle the recoil, and ends up shooting himself in the head.

Now, I get that some fathers, or mothers for that matter, wish to share their hobby with their children. I also find it perfectly reasonable that, under supervision, an 8 year old kid can be allowed to fire small caliber, low-recoil handguns. But when a kid, without any training at all, can be allowed to use and discharge a sub-machinegun, with it being deemed "safe" because he is under supervision, something is wrong. Especially when it is at a crowded place like a faire, and the slightest mishandling the weapon could result in others getting hit, then something is wrong.

So is it a lack of empathy that some people might over-exaggerate something? Probably not. Just bafflement.

Did I, and do I still, feel empathy for the kid's family (from the story above)? Sure I do. But I also believe, regardless of how anyone might feel about the matter, that the father acted stupidly, and was rewarded in kind. He can now spend the rest of his life contemplating the consequences of his actions.

And just so anyone don't think I'm making this up, here is a link to the news article about it back then:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-chri...ry?id=12565132

Well said. And yeah, that was total stupidity of the father. No kid under the age of say 12, should be shooting anything more powerful than a .22 rifle in my opinion. Firearms need to be treated with respect for what they can do. But you see the same stupidity going on with automobiles, trucks, mopeds, 4 wheeler, motorcycles, etc.

[vindicatorx]

Who is Dylan Roof?

Have yet to hear this guy went after people in this churchh due to their race. That and you people make it sound like a minority hasn't shot up a church before.

[Ghostpanther]

sorry he was a member of that church and a devout Christian.....wait do you mean we have a different definition for them when they are ....say....a guy who is a devout muslim?

Being a member of a church and even being perceived by others as being devout, does not prove you are faithful to the teachings. And it matters little what religion they belong to if it teaches forgiveness and having compassion for others. You ether do that or not and randomly just shooting people indicates you are not. :P

[vindicatorx]

He was not a Christian. They do not do crap like that and still be a Christian. You shall know them by their deeds. People from all religions have done horrible stuff in the name of their religion. There is a huge difference.

uh yeah he is just as much a christian as any other one. I mean that's kind of one of the big ones, forgivness and shit, right? All he has to do is say "Sorry Jebus, I done fucked up. Can you forgive me?" and he is back in right? I mean hell, they even have a handy How to Repent site with nifty pictures for all the Christians who have a hard time reading. http://www.wikihow.com/Repent
That and didn't god forgive King David for murder? Pretty sure you may want to check up on that.

[Shalidor]

I don't think it's a lack of empathy, but rather whole-hearted bafflement over some people's reluctance in considering an alternative.

Some years ago, also in the US, a father lost his 8 year old boy, due to, and excuse my language here, dumb crap related to guns. The kid had, at such a low age already been shooting and firing small handguns at his home, with the father watching and supervising. Then, at a gun faire, the kid is allowed to test fire an Uzi. The father is there, the owner/seller of the Uzi is there, and both are watching. Watching as the kid fires the Uzi, can't handle the recoil, and ends up shooting himself in the head.

There was also this thing that happened too.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/ari...ent/index.html

I just wanted to bring this up to show commonalities between these two cases, and look at why both people here died. I'd argue the girl had a happier outcome though. Instead of dying, she only killed her instructor.

Now, I get that some fathers, or mothers for that matter, wish to share their hobby with their children. I also find it perfectly reasonable that, under supervision, an 8 year old kid can be allowed to fire small caliber, low-recoil handguns. But when a kid, without any training at all, can be allowed to use and discharge a sub-machinegun, with it being deemed "safe" because he is under supervision, something is wrong. Especially when it is at a crowded place like a faire, and the slightest mishandling the weapon could result in others getting hit, then something is wrong.

So is it a lack of empathy that some people might over-exaggerate something? Probably not. Just bafflement.

Did I, and do I still, feel empathy for the kid's family (from the story above)? Sure I do. But I also believe, regardless of how anyone might feel about the matter, that the father acted stupidly, and was rewarded in kind. He can now spend the rest of his life contemplating the consequences of his actions.

And just so anyone don't think I'm making this up, here is a link to the news article about it back then:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-chri...ry?id=12565132

As you said, stupid gun crap. In fact, it's pretty much the pinnacle of stupidity. Or ignorance. The parents of these children learned the hard way, that you do not get to be ignorant about weapons if you're going to go around and fuck with them. When people don't understand how guns work, or they lack some critical details or information, they're going to make very poor decisions with disastrous, unforeseen consequences. I'm obviously not just talking about these two cases anymore. I'm talking about the issue of firearm ownership and regulation in general.

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Being a member of a church and even being perceived by others as being devout, does not prove you are faithful to the teachings. And it matters little what religion they belong to if it teaches forgiveness and having compassion for others. You ether do that or not and randomly just shooting people indicates you are not. :P

You do realize, that according to Christian theology, all he has to do is admit he fucked up and he's golden, right?

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Have yet to hear this guy went after people in this churchh due to their race. That and you people make it sound like a minority hasn't shot up a church before.

Didn't you hear? In the event of a murder, the only thing that matters is what skin pigment shot the other skin pigment. A Black Liver Matter activist told me this. So did Michael Kimmel, the leading voice of progressive academic activism in the United States, founder of NOMAS, friend to NOW, and many other leftist, progressive causes.

Hell, that poor marksman was probably just punching up. Man deserves a medal.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm pretty sure at least some of what you said isn't true. The NICS system is all digital. They have all class 3 and FFL on a database. They are keeping track of who sells what, and they use a digital system to do it. I know that for a fact. You say the ATF has no budget; well, how much money do they have? They might very well need more. I don't know what the numbers are there.

NICS is not the ATF, they are prohibited by congressional law to use a computerized system out of fear of a national gun registry. There is also no real data on gun deaths and violence by design. There are 65K gun dealerships in the US and only 800 investigators at the ATF so the odds of a gun dealer getting busted due to inspections are slim to none.

Do you live in the US and have you purchased a firearm within the United States before?

yes and yes why?

I don't think people are saying there's nothing that can be done. I just think there are a lot of solutions being floated that a large chunk of the right doesn't much care for. For example, a few years ago, Diane Feinstein floated a new super-Brady bill, something to ban all "assault weapons." The bill targeted long guns, specific kinds of long guns that were used in less than 1% of firearm-related homicides. That bill, which they were touting as the thing that was going to end gun violence, would have made a variety of sporting arms illegal, and would have very likely had no appreciable effect at all. See the Bureau of Justice Statistics for more information.

Another example has been a push to ban high capacity magazines, as in, anything over ten rounds. As many have shown in videos, anyone with a modicum of expertise can do what some people call a "tac reload" and continue spraying led with barely a break in their firing. You can do a "New York" reload and just grab another loaded gun you're carrying. It's not a real solution, and it's still going to come out as a wash anyway because you're hurting people who carry for defensive purposes just as much or as more than mass shooters. Average is 7-10 shots to stop an assailant, for a trained marksman. Most people need more. For that reason, most people who do carry for defensive purpose, carry more than one magazine.

I personally have floated solutions before too, but so far, the only solutions the left seems interested in are ones that prevent defensive carry and blanket-ban all of a certain type of firearm that is almost never used to kill people, vs. the cheap, mass-produced, easily available handguns that are used in most firearm-related homicides. Maybe it's the left who only cares about dead kids insofar as they can use them as a political prop?

when it comes to gun control we don't even do the basics. It's more likely the right doesn't give a dam how many dead bodies are thrown their way in the name of the second amendment because anything and everything seems to be "THEY GUNNA TAKE AWY UR GUNS".

[Ghostpanther]

uh yeah he is just as much a christian as any other one. I mean that's kind of one of the big ones, forgivness and shit, right? All he has to do is say "Sorry Jebus, I done fucked up. Can you forgive me?" and he is back in right? I mean hell, they even have a handy How to Repent site with nifty pictures for all the Christians who have a hard time reading. http://www.wikihow.com/Repent
That and didn't god forgive King David for murder? Pretty sure you may want to check up on that.

We can do not get into a deep discussion of religion on this forum, it is not allowed. But I will stand by my opinion this shooter was not a Christian. It is a simple case of some radical thinking dumbass wanting to hurt others for some I am sure unworthy reasons. Maybe he felt offended over something. *Shrugs. You can disagree, which is fine. But not going to change my mind.

[Draco-Onis]

i could find more articles of pewdiepie saying a naughty word then articles about this shooting

Australian news media won't even show the guys picture and none of your links mention terrorism

Why would Australian news care about US mass shootings?

[greaseflub]

such a shame to hear this stuff going on

[Shalidor]

NICS is not the ATF, they are prohibited by congressional law to use a computerized system out of fear of a national gun registry.

Well, shit, maybe I should go tell my local guns and ammo store that because they use their computer for NICS checks all the fucking time. Apparently they're breaking the law.

There is also no real data on gun deaths and violence by design.

Ah, now that the "30,000 firearm-related deaths per year" stat has become inconvenient, we're throwing that out? My source is the BJS.

There are 65K gun dealerships in the US and only 800 investigators at the ATF so the odds of a gun dealer getting busted due to inspections are slim to none.

Oh so you want inspections. How many per year, and at what intervals?

yes and yes why?

How long ago?

when it comes to gun control we don't even do the basics.

What are "the basics?"

It's more likely the right doesn't give a dam how many dead bodies are thrown their way in the name of the second amendment because anything and everything seems to be "THEY GUNNA TAKE AWY UR GUNS".

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/the_...ium=socialflow

Nope. No attempt to take away our guns here. That is a hysteric lie perpetuated by the insane right-wing NRA who just wants to brainwash you and sell you death machines so you ca-what? No, no there's no link to an article there. No. No! NO DON'T FUCKING CLICK ON THAT YOU DIRTY GUNHUMPING AMMOSEXUAL!!!!

I don't make this shit up.

[vindicatorx]

We can do not get into a deep discussion of religion on this forum, it is not allowed. But I will stand by my opinion this shooter was not a Christian. It is a simple case of some radical thinking dumbass wanting to hurt others for some I am sure unworthy reasons. Maybe he felt offended over something. *Shrugs. You can disagree, which is fine. But not going to change my mind.

I mean your response is the go to response Christians use every time another Christian does something horrible. "He/she wwasn't a real Christian"
I mean maybe he heard her use the lord's name in vain and just did what the bible says to do? Or maybe she disobeyed her parents right? I mean maybe to this guy, you aren't a real Christian as you aren't carrying out the bibles directions ever think about that?

[Ghostpanther]

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You do realize, that according to Christian theology, all he has to do is admit he fucked up and he's golden, right?

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I realize that such theology is wrong to the extent all is golden. :P