Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Delana]

Does the US belonging to the UN let its citizens say fuck you to the constitution?

The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Nothing the UN says, or any part of the UN charter, supersedes the US constitution within US borders. No elected US official would have the authority to enter into an agreement that came into conflict with the constitution. If there are instances where the constitution is in conflict with some international agreement, the constitution wins every time.

[Zoibert the Bear]

The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Nothing the UN says, or any part of the UN charter, supersedes the US constitution within US borders. No elected US official would have the authority to enter into an agreement that came into conflict with the constitution. If there are instances where the constitution is in conflict with some international agreement, the constitution wins every time.

Thanks for the confirmation.

That is exactly the case in Spain as well. The Constitution states how a Referendum is instantiated and acted upon. Whatever the UN says, the Constitution has preference, and the EU will position itself behind said constitution every time; thus, this referendum is completely unlawful under Spanish law until amended or properly executed.

Why would breaking the law be regarded as democratic? Is it because of the current mindset of western culture? It breaks the whole concept of rule according to higher law and is by definition fascist, the referendum should be cancelled unless they want accusation of secession to keep standing

[Deleted]

What if it was Bavaria that didn't want the political solution and instead violated the law by calling said referendum in the funniest of ways.

Say the political powers in Bavaria have a vote to pass a law that goes against the constitution and would let them have a referendum, then given every member of said vote 20 days off work so there is no politically appropriate way to counter that law for being illegally approved.

This is what happened in Cataluña.

But it didn't. There's always been willingness to find a political solution from Catalonia's part and you know it. Remember what happened with the Estatut? Even when Spain blatantly broke its promise to keep the bill intact if voted by the Catalan parliament, there was a will to negotiate afterwards from the Catalan side. A few years ago there was a push to renegotiate the region's financing, and that was instantly shot down by the Spanish government with zero negotiation. There's a simple reason for that: Spain only negotiaties with Catalonia when the central government is in minority and they need the Catalan votes to pass bills. If they don't need Catalan support, they just block every single initiative so they have something to offer them if they need their votes in the future.

That's politics 101 really, and it can kinda work with the right dosage and if done properly, but if there's a reckless and heavy handed approach people feel cheated and ignored. When you piss off a population repeatedly, especially after 40 years of repression under Franco by blocking all their propositions to use them as a bargaining chip further down the line, are you surprised that they eventually grow tired of the situation? That's what happened with Drumpf in the US: If you ignore and dismiss a large part of the population, don't be surprised when they eventually bite back.

[Zoibert the Bear]

But it didn't. There's always been willingness to find a political solution from Catalonia's part and you know it. Remember what happened with the Estatut? Even when Spain blatantly broke its promise to keep the bill intact if voted by the Catalan parliament, there was a will to negotiate afterwards from the Catalan side. A few years ago there was a push to renegotiate the region's financing, and that was instantly shot down by the Spanish government with zero negotiation. There's a simple reason for that: Spain only negotiaties with Catalonia when the central government is in minority and they need the Catalan votes to pass bills. If they don't need Catalan support, they just block every single initiative so they have something to offer them if they need their votes in the future.

That's politics 101 really, and it can kinda work with the right dosage and if done properly, but if there's a reckless and heavy handed approach people feel cheated and ignored. When you piss off a population repeatedly, especially after 40 years of repression under Franco by blocking all their propositions to use them as a bargaining chip further down the line, are you surprised that they eventually grow tired of the situation? That's what happened with Drumpf in the US: If you ignore and dismiss a large part of the population, don't be surprised when they eventually bite back.

Oh you are absolutely right about the Estatut, don't get me wrong. But threatening with secession each time they don't get what they want is hardly the right choice. There is and has always been a sense of victimhood in Catalonia, a sentiment that has been exploited to no avail and has churned out a whole lot of uninformed citizens thinking that Spain is the root of all their problems.

That still does not make the current situation right, neither the referendum nor the central governments overreaction. There is no going back anyway, the damage is already done, and whatever happens in October will result is a large percentage of the population being extremely angry.

[Deleted]

when Spain blatantly broke its promise to keep the bill intact if voted by the Catalan parliament
Spain only negotiaties with Catalonia when the central government is in minority
That's politics 101 really

That wasn't Spain: that was a former candidate to the Presidency, later President, and now cloud supervisor.
Spain doesn't negotiate with Catalonia. Catalonia is Spain, despite the silly rhetoric.
But yes, it's politics 101: Catalonia is periodically granted privileges that the rest of the nation rarely enjoys. Whoop-de-doo.

That's what happened with Drumpf in the US: If you ignore and dismiss a large part of the population, don't be surprised when they eventually bite back.

It doesn't escape anyone that the situation is exactly that:
That the Catalan elite live in a post-truth scenario where referendums can be held in defiance of the law, where accession to the EU is automatic, or where self-determination grantees the right to secede.
That the Catalan elite is using culture as a tool for division, and encourage division and xenophobia.
That the Catalan peoples are being fed lie after lie by the institutions that should seek their well being.
Nobody is surprised

There's always been willingness to find a political solution from Catalonia's part and you know it.

Takes two to tango.
There's always been willingness to create a problem. The statute being a massive one. The Catalonia elite knew it would not fly. They put it to the vote of the Catalan people. And when it was challenged, the Catalan elite choose to rally the Catalan people against the central government. Any person with, how do you say it... 2 dedos de frente? would be upset at the people who wrote such atrocity in the first place. Or upset at Zapatero for making such absurd promises. But in the crazed mind of the very parochial Catalan nationalism, the promise was done by Spain (lol), and their elites poisoning the well is just fine.

You've been had.

And so has every Spaniard. It's all bread and circus. Very little bread though.

[Blosc]

This is not about self determination or Catalonian sentiment. It is about indoctrination and economics though; see in it what you fit, keep thinking that this is yet another example of oppression if you will. The pressed here are those who live or have family in Cataluña who have not been sucked by the Catalonian independence machine. Even though I am all for the referendum to happen, the way its being handled is simply terrible, no matter the result, the damage is already done.

The Catalonian government has spent public funds on pro-independent propaganda and has illegally accessed public citizen records going against data protection laws in the EU. They have given public money to pro-independence businessmen while simultaneously hurting unionist enterprises. They call for democracy and fine shops that do not use Catalan as their main language (Spanish being equally official). They have ignored procedures and taken every step to ensure that the political talk was closed off, and crimes such as the committed deserve punishment, no one is immune to this.

The "money problem" is VERY old. Just look how they, for the past two years, Spain promissed more money for Catalonia and the independence is still a thing. Just a week ago, Spain minister promised to resurrect the economical issue (which catalans asked in 2011) if they forget the referendum. And what is the people doing? still in the streets, demanding a referendum.

There IS a money problem, because a lot of € are send to madrid to redistribute to other automonies and less money is send back to Catalonia. You can say "solidarity", but you then take a look on less productive regions and they have a lot of privilegies because all of the money they recieve every year...not a single € is destined to improve their production. An example: in Extremadura you can buy a new asset of furnitures for your house at 50% the price because the goverment there pays you the other half. And no, the money doesn't come from them.

Indoctrination? Yes. There is. I can assure you. I studied at Barcelona University and they told me a tale of catalan nacionalism. But you would be wrong if you think that Spain doesn't do the same.

You could show me dozens of pictures of children at pro-independence meetings, or children with catalan flags. But i could do the same with spanish children being indoctrinated in spanish nationalism. And i could even say that there is more indoctrination in Spain because there are more childrens there....but that would be a shitty argument.

Money for pro-independence propaganda? Yes. But...this money comes from...where? Catalans. Spanish Minister of Finances, Montoro, admited a 10.000 milions € of money that never returns to Catalonia. Catalans are paying the same police that is opressing them. You should investigate how many money costs to maintain that many police (people, cars/jeeps, tanks and ships) in Catalonia. THAT is the money that catalans...and spanish people are paying....just to stop a vote, an idea.

[Deleted]

You contradict yourself. You say that Franco organising referendums is not true democracy, because they were staged under an undemocratic regime / constitution anyway. But at the same time you say that not allowing a referendum under the current, democratic regime / constitution isn't democracy either, because the constitution says so.

So in Franco's time, nothing was democratic because Franco, but today everything is democratic because democracy. That's not how it works. Spain repeatedly fucks Catalonia over (I'm not saying it is one-sided but still Catalonia is pulling the shorter end of the rope) and the fact that a referendum is not allowed by the constituion doesn't make the fact democratic. Every nation has the right for self-determination, which of course does not guarantee secession for any nation any time they want, but it warrants dialogue, which the Spanish side refuses to lead.

Not everything is democratic by the mere fact of it happening under a constitution, no.
Just like not every action taken against a non-democratic institution is democratic, by virtue of challenging a non-democracy.
Democratic things need to happen under rule of law. This one referendum is not democratic because it's happening in clear defiance of the rule of law; not because it happens within the Spanish democracy.
I'm only pointing out how this:
It's kind of sad how many places seem to favour democracy, until it no longer benefits them lol.
is a throwaway statement with little to no regard for reality: many atrocious regimes have concealed their rhetoric behind the word "democratic". Voting is simply not a sufficient aspect of it.

Catalonia is among the most privileged regions in the country; they're not pulling any short end of any rope. The country is in deep shit throughout. Less now than a few years ago, but still. They've seen their services diminished, and they're bitching, naturally. They simply have a lager base to voice their concerns than other regions.
There's also no Spanish "side". There's a central government elected by all Spaniards, and a Catalan government elected by a few Spaniards (the Catalan Spaniards).

The response is framed in the context of "allowing a referendum". This is not something the Spanish government can allow, as things stand, like I said. I'm all for dialogue, though ^^.

[Blosc]

This is not about self determination or Catalonian sentiment. It is about indoctrination and economics though; see in it what you fit, keep thinking that this is yet another example of oppression if you will. The pressed here are those who live or have family in Cataluña who have not been sucked by the Catalonian independence machine. Even though I am all for the referendum to happen, the way its being handled is simply terrible, no matter the result, the damage is already done.

The Catalonian government has spent public funds on pro-independent propaganda and has illegally accessed public citizen records going against data protection laws in the EU. They have given public money to pro-independence businessmen while simultaneously hurting unionist enterprises. They call for democracy and fine shops that do not use Catalan as their main language (Spanish being equally official). They have ignored procedures and taken every step to ensure that the political talk was closed off, and crimes such as the committed deserve punishment, no one is immune to this.

The "money problem" is VERY old. Just look how they, for the past two years, Spain promissed more money for Catalonia and the independence is still a thing. Just a week ago, Spain minister promised to resurrect the economical issue (which catalans asked in 2011) if they forget the referendum. And what is the people doing? still in the streets, demanding a referendum.

There IS a money problem, because a lot of € are send to madrid to redistribute to other automonies and less money is send back to Catalonia. You can say "solidarity", but you then take a look on less productive regions and they have a lot of privilegies because all of the money they recieve every year...not a single € is destined to improve their production. An example: in Extremadura you can buy a new asset of furnitures for your house at 50% the price because the goverment there pays you the other half. And no, the money doesn't come from them.

Indoctrination? Yes. There is. I can assure you. I studied at Barcelona University and they told me a tale of catalan nacionalism. But you would be wrong if you think that Spain doesn't do the same.

You could show me dozens of pictures of children at pro-independence meetings, or children with catalan flags. But i could do the same with spanish children being indoctrinated in spanish nationalism. And i could even say that there is more indoctrination in Spain because there are more childrens there....but that would be a shitty argument.

Money for pro-independence propaganda? Yes. But...this money comes from...where? Catalans. Spanish Minister of Finances, Montoro, admited a 10.000 milions € of money that never returns to Catalonia. Catalans are paying the same police that is opressing them. You should investigate how much money costs to maintain that much police (people, cars/jeeps, tanks and ships) in Catalonia. THAT is the money that catalans...and spanish people are paying....just to stop a vote, an idea.

[Blosc]

This is not about self determination or Catalonian sentiment. It is about indoctrination and economics though; see in it what you fit, keep thinking that this is yet another example of oppression if you will. The pressed here are those who live or have family in Cataluña who have not been sucked by the Catalonian independence machine. Even though I am all for the referendum to happen, the way its being handled is simply terrible, no matter the result, the damage is already done.

The Catalonian government has spent public funds on pro-independent propaganda and has illegally accessed public citizen records going against data protection laws in the EU. They have given public money to pro-independence businessmen while simultaneously hurting unionist enterprises. They call for democracy and fine shops that do not use Catalan as their main language (Spanish being equally official). They have ignored procedures and taken every step to ensure that the political talk was closed off, and crimes such as the committed deserve punishment, no one is immune to this.

The "money problem" is VERY old. Just look how they, for the past two years, Spain promissed more money for Catalonia and the independence is still a thing. Just a week ago, Spain minister promised to resurrect the economical issue (which catalans asked in 2011) if they forget the referendum. And what is the people doing? still in the streets, demanding a referendum.

There IS a money problem, because a lot of € are send to madrid to redistribute to other automonies and less money is send back to Catalonia. You can say "solidarity", but you then take a look on less productive regions and they have a lot of privilegies because all of the money they recieve every year...not a single € is destined to improve their production. An example: in Extremadura you can buy a new asset of furnitures for your house at 50% the price because the goverment there pays you the other half. And no, the money doesn't come from them.

Indoctrination? Yes. There is. I can assure you. I studied at Barcelona University and they told me a tale of catalan nacionalism. But you would be wrong if you think that Spain doesn't do the same.

You could show me dozens of pictures of children at pro-independence meetings, or children with catalan flags. But i could do the same with spanish children being indoctrinated in spanish nationalism. And i could even say that there is more indoctrination in Spain because there are more childrens there....but that would be a shitty argument.

Money for pro-independence propaganda? Yes. But...this money comes from...where? Catalans. Spanish Minister of Finances, Montoro, admited a 10.000 milions € of money that never returns to Catalonia. Catalans are paying the same police that is opressing them. You should investigate how much money costs to maintain that much police (people, cars/jeeps, tanks and ships) in Catalonia. THAT is the money that catalans...and spanish people are paying....just to stop a vote, an idea.

[Blosc]

This is not about self determination or Catalonian sentiment. It is about indoctrination and economics though; see in it what you fit, keep thinking that this is yet another example of oppression if you will. The pressed here are those who live or have family in Cataluña who have not been sucked by the Catalonian independence machine. Even though I am all for the referendum to happen, the way its being handled is simply terrible, no matter the result, the damage is already done.

The Catalonian government has spent public funds on pro-independent propaganda and has illegally accessed public citizen records going against data protection laws in the EU. They have given public money to pro-independence businessmen while simultaneously hurting unionist enterprises. They call for democracy and fine shops that do not use Catalan as their main language (Spanish being equally official). They have ignored procedures and taken every step to ensure that the political talk was closed off, and crimes such as the committed deserve punishment, no one is immune to this.

The "money problem" is VERY old. Just look how they, for the past two years, Spain promissed more money for Catalonia and the independence is still a thing. Just a week ago, Spain minister promised to resurrect the economical issue (which catalans asked in 2011) if they forget the referendum. And what is the people doing? still in the streets, demanding a referendum.

There IS a money problem, because a lot of € are send to madrid to redistribute to other automonies and less money is send back to Catalonia. You can say "solidarity", but you then take a look on less productive regions and they have a lot of privilegies because all of the money they recieve every year...not a single € is destined to improve their production. An example: in Extremadura you can buy a new asset of furnitures for your house at 50% the price because the goverment there pays you the other half. And no, the money doesn't come from them.

Indoctrination? Yes. There is. I can assure you. I studied at Barcelona University and they told me a tale of catalan nacionalism. But you would be wrong if you think that Spain doesn't do the same.

You could show me dozens of pictures of children at pro-independence meetings, or children with catalan flags. But i could do the same with spanish children being indoctrinated in spanish nationalism. And i could even say that there is more indoctrination in Spain because there are more childrens there....but that would be a shitty argument.

Money for pro-independence propaganda? Yes. But...this money comes from...where? Catalans. Spanish Minister of Finances, Montoro, admited a 10.000 milions € of money that never returns to Catalonia. Catalans are paying the same police that is opressing them. You should investigate how much money costs to maintain that much police (people, cars/jeeps, tanks and ships) in Catalonia. THAT is the money that catalans...and spanish people are paying....just to stop a vote, an idea.

[Deleted]

I think you missed my point. You are saying the referendum is undemocratic because it is happening against the constituion - I am saying it is the consitution that is undemocratic for not allowing the referendum, while the referendum is democratic, because it is done in the spirit of self-determination of the Catalan nation, which is guaranteed by international law.

EDIT: Maybe you mean that the referendum is unlawful, which is completely true.

I'd say it's both unlawful and not democratic: I don't think you can do anything democratic in defiance of the rule of law.

About the constitution being undemocratic
earlier you said this:

Every nation has the right for self-determination, which of course does not guarantee secession for any nation any time they want, but it warrants dialogue

And I agree. I've said it several occasions through the thread.
I don't think there's anything undemocratic or against international law in not contemplating a secessionist referendum.

I don't think doing things "in the spirit of" a right recognized by international law to be democratic, given that kind of law does encompass all kids of regimes, not all of which are democratic. These are unrelated topics.

[Deleted]

That sounds nice but in history and practice, the more territory and people a central governing body controls, the worse the lives of the people it's ruling. It's why the US was born.

Humans evolved to exist in tribes of around ~50 people with a solid hierarchy that's fulfilling to participate in for each of its members. Any time an organization gets bigger than this, it generally gives more power to the top, and less power to the bottom.

We've done a good job expanding from that number in modern times, but it's still a reason why we have people making decisions negatively impacting peoples lives from 10,000 miles away.

In the US in particular we're trying to basically have a bunch of smaller tribes like local governments, that make up a medium tribe of state governments, and then a larger tribe in the federal. Could even make the argument the UN is an attempt at another level hierarchy but it's simply just a power broker thing.


ANyway I went on too long.

Humans had lots of odd behaviour in the past.

And also at the moment.

[Deleted]

This is wrong IMO, or at least as I see it, "democratic" means excercising your rights to govern yourself, and this can, and often has to, be done in defiance of law. For example, are dissidents in dictatorships undemocratic, when they fight for democracy, violating the laws that forbid the discussion of certain political topics?

I don't think the act of dissidence is democratic or undemocratic.
To address that angle, I said earlier that not every action taken against a non-democratic institution is democratic, by virtue of challenging a non-democracy.
And also this
This referendum is set against the rule of law: it cannot be democratic. It's, a best, a revolution; but since they don't actually have any military power to enact it, it looks more like sedition.
That exercise of external rights in defiance of law that the West so often loves (Marsellesa intensifies) is what I was addressing there. If the world ends up looking good on their secession, it would be one among many of those fancy revolutions. They just don't have the power, or the international disposition, to pull it off.

True, but we have to look at the context here. The Catalonian authorities (as far as I am not mistaken) explicitly stated that the point of the referendum is not actually seceding, but gaining the right to do it. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong and it was just a result of a public poll, where the vast majority of people said this, but the points still stands.

So the Spanish government knows that Catalonians are actually not gonna secede - but they react as if there was a coup d'état being staged in Barcelona, which is just adding fuel to the fire. If Madrid was the bigger man, they would just say "OK guys we get it you're serious about it, we're not recognising your referendum anyway but we can talk about it".

The question of the referendum is secession: Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?
The Catalan government has passed several pieces of legislation, declaring the severeignity of Catalonia, and the one regulating the operation of the referendum as winable by simple majority and binding. They also had an interim constitution at some point. It's all struck down by the constitutional court, but they keep going: according to Puigdemont they live in a "new legality".
It's not a coup. Coups have guns at the parliament, tanks on the street, and kings speaking on television; Spaniards know all about that. It's just sedition, probably.

The "public poll" was in 2014. Advertised as a consultative referendum, and preemptively struck by the constitutional court (sentence still pending, I think). They organized an alternative consult later that year, which is the one that massively purports public support for independence. It was hugely controversial, with low turnout, and it's argued that only the ones very vested in independence would show up.

Madrid is not the bigger man. And nowhere have I argued such thing. I've hinted that their narrative is that they don't have other options. They're pursuing the issue through the judiciary power (instead of through dialogue and politics).
Madrid, today, is the government of Rajoy. Someone who won the latest presidency by doing as little as he could: just wait for the other parties to eat themselves out (and they did, big time).
We could argue that it is overreaction. Maybe it is; but it's generally understood as complete inaction.

[Deleted]

Oh you are absolutely right about the Estatut, don't get me wrong. But threatening with secession each time they don't get what they want is hardly the right choice. There is and has always been a sense of victimhood in Catalonia, a sentiment that has been exploited to no avail and has churned out a whole lot of uninformed citizens thinking that Spain is the root of all their problems.

That still does not make the current situation right, neither the referendum nor the central governments overreaction. There is no going back anyway, the damage is already done, and whatever happens in October will result is a large percentage of the population being extremely angry.

I don't think Catalonia threatens with secession each time they don't get what they want. The Catalan people have been royally fucked up at various stages for the last 300+ years and it's the first time there's a real intention of leaving Spain. While it's true there's a certain degree of victimization, there's also a lot of undeniable historical facts that prove that the Catalan association with Spain and its terms has been largely imposed .

But in essence we do agree about the whole thing: Both sides are being beyond idiotic in their own way. I think that the difference is that in Catalonia there's a very high percentage of the population that feel the need to vote on the issue (a lot of them don't want to leave, but they want to exercise their democratic right), and that does hold a certain degree of legitimacy in a healthy democracy even if the law doesn't support it.

What the Spanish government is doing is an attack on certain civil rights, that regardless to whom they are directed, are a huge step back in a modern society. Today it's against the referendum, but tomorrow it can be against anything they feel that endangers their interests. A lot of Spanish people are turning a blind eye on the gravity of the issue because the offense is directed to something they happen to be against, but they fail to realize that by legitimizing these actions they can easily be the next ones in line to have their rights trampled on at a whim.

Whatever happens after October, referendum or not, the problem isn't going away anytime soon.

- - - Updated - - -

You've been had.

I'm not Spanish or Catalan, so no I haven't.

I think that the general consensus regarding this whole situation is that both sides have handled the issue rather poorly. Both have tried to bend the law and public opinion to suit their own interests, and there's only one way out of this situation and it's neither a declaration of independence, or political repression to uphold a set in stone constitution (or not so set in stone since they change it whenever it benefits them) made 40 years ago in a completely different social and political climate.

All this story of the manipulating elites, children indoctrination, purposefully creating a problem, incitating xenophobia is just a reflection of a hugely biased (and politically controlled I might add) Spanish media. Portraying the Catalan people as a bunch of mindless manipulated fools that obey their supreme overlord in the quest to hate Spain for the sake of it is beyond ridiculous. Catalonia is an economic powerhouse, do you really think one of the best educated and rich regions of Spain got there by being a bunch of idiots?

There's no good guy or bad boy in this story, just a situation that needs to be resolved, hopefully peacefully. Attempting to portray Catalonia as the evil secessionists that want to destroy everything Spain has built and loves will simply get laughed at by anybody who has access to independent sources of press.

[Deleted]

Portraying the Catalan people as a bunch of mindless manipulated fools that obey their supreme overlord in the quest to hate Spain for the sake of it is beyond ridiculous.

You said it yourself: That's what happened with Drumpf in the US. Was just illustrating your point.
So, I mean... if you want to portray "what happened with Drumpf" as anything but manipulated drones, be my guest.
The rest of Spaniards are easily manipulated too, as is most everyone on earth. As I am.

Catalonia is an economic powerhouse, do you really think one of the best educated and rich regions of Spain got there by being a bunch of idiots?

Trump must be the most intelligent man on Earth, then.
They're in the mid-upper section in education, apparently.

There's no good guy or bad boy in this story, just a situation that needs to be resolved, hopefully peacefully. Attempting to portray Catalonia as the evil secessionists that want to destroy everything Spain has built and loves will simply get laughed at by anybody who has access to independent sources of press.

Fortunately, I'm not framing Catalan people as bad. Or good. The entire country is in deep shit. Catalonia just has a bigger platform to express that concern. Their elites are obfuscating the concern. Bigly. Riding the wave of social discomfort at the face of a massive economical crisis, and turning it into petty squabbles: they're failing the Catalan people.

[Deleted]

I don't think Catalonia threatens with secession each time they don't get what they want. The Catalan people have been royally fucked up at various stages for the last 300+ years and it's the first time there's a real intention of leaving Spain. While it's true there's a certain degree of victimization, there's also a lot of undeniable historical facts that prove that the Catalan association with Spain and its terms has been largely imposed .

But in essence we do agree about the whole thing: Both sides are being beyond idiotic in their own way. I think that the difference is that in Catalonia there's a very high percentage of the population that feel the need to vote on the issue (a lot of them don't want to leave, but they want to exercise their democratic right), and that does hold a certain degree of legitimacy in a healthy democracy even if the law doesn't support it.

What the Spanish government is doing is an attack on certain civil rights, that regardless to whom they are directed, are a huge step back in a modern society. Today it's against the referendum, but tomorrow it can be against anything they feel that endangers their interests. A lot of Spanish people are turning a blind eye on the gravity of the issue because the offense is directed to something they happen to be against, but they fail to realize that by legitimizing these actions they can easily be the next ones in line to have their rights trampled on at a whim.

Whatever happens after October, referendum or not, the problem isn't going away anytime soon.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm not Spanish or Catalan, so no I haven't.

I think that the general consensus regarding this whole situation is that both sides have handled the issue rather poorly. Both have tried to bend the law and public opinion to suit their own interests, and there's only one way out of this situation and it's neither a declaration of independence, or political repression to uphold a set in stone constitution (or not so set in stone since they change it whenever it benefits them) made 40 years ago in a completely different social and political climate.

All this story of the manipulating elites, children indoctrination, purposefully creating a problem, incitating xenophobia is just a reflection of a hugely biased (and politically controlled I might add) Spanish media. Portraying the Catalan people as a bunch of mindless manipulated fools that obey their supreme overlord in the quest to hate Spain for the sake of it is beyond ridiculous. Catalonia is an economic powerhouse, do you really think one of the best educated and rich regions of Spain got there by being a bunch of idiots?

There's no good guy or bad boy in this story, just a situation that needs to be resolved, hopefully peacefully. Attempting to portray Catalonia as the evil secessionists that want to destroy everything Spain has built and loves will simply get laughed at by anybody who has access to independent sources of press.

First of all, what I´ve underlined, part of them have just been doing that this past 10 years and no, you are mistaken, Spain can be doing things badly (wich they are) but it is Cataluña who is mainly attacking civil rights when it´s breaking the same law that Cataluña and the rest of Spain voted 40 years ago. Spanish central goverment is doing what the law tells them to do while part of Cataluña is just spitting on everything that ressembles democracy.

Cataluña is breaking civil rights when they are making a referemdum and not allowing the rest of the Catalunian goverment get involved becouse they know they don´t have the support to move the independence. Here, take a look by yourself and you´ll see how much support they have inside their own goverment.

https://www.parlament.cat/web/compos...ons/index.html

So in reallty its a referemdum that the only ones that are doing it are the ones that want independence in the goverment, there is not any type of validation to know how to verify who voted or how many people voted, there is no way to know even if some votes are just made up or not, there is no way to know anything. That it is not even the worst thing done, carles puigdemont is doing a coercion on all goverment officials to move foward an illegal referemdum even if they support it or not and you think that is not an attack on civil rights? When he is making them to either follow one law or another? And I am not even speaking about all the supression done these 3 months.

Here is the thing, both goverments have fucked up in a huge way. There is no plan on how Cataluña will work alone, there is no plan for anything, all the CDC is doing is making sides just for the shake of it becouse they have promised something they know they cannot deliver but if there is actually a side that has the reason just a bit ( and it´s pretty hard to say this becouse I´ve been anti-PP all my life) it´s the central goverment.

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You said it yourself: That's what happened with Drumpf in the US. Was just illustrating your point.
So, I mean... if you want to portray "what happened with Drumpf" as anything but manipulated drones, be my guest.
The rest of Spaniards are easily manipulated too, as is most everyone on earth. As I am.

When I used the Drumpf example, it wasn't implying that the cultural or economic background was the same, I was merely using the scenario to represent a situation where a large percentage of the population feel ignored and how throwing them to the side doesn't solve the problem; it makes it bigger. I despise the Donald with a passion, but I also understand the reasons why he's in office.

There's also the argument that the average Trump voter comes from a far lower socioeconomic class than the average Catalan voter, which also influences their susceptibility to manipulation. Remember that compared to Spain, the Catalan region has two vastly different medias spinning their different agendas and viewpoints, yet Spain has only one very uniform message across the media. It's far harder to influence people that have access to the two sides of the coin, regardless of how rusted it is.

They're failing the Catalan people.

The Spanish government failed their people long ago. The Catalans are the ones (along with the Basques) that feel that they have legitimate reasons to break away, and in a country where systematic corruption has taken hold of the deepest foundations of the state, and even if I can't jusfity the way they've gone about it, I honestly can see where they're coming from.

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Cataluña is just spitting on everything that ressembles democracy.

Voting is not spitting on democracy, quite the contrary. What Catalonia is doing is breaking the law. In my opinion, laws should be used to serve the will of the people, not to suppress it when it happens to be inconvenient.

Cataluña is breaking civil rights when they are making a referemdum and not allowing the rest of the Catalunian goverment get involved becouse they know they don´t have the support to move the independence. Here, take a look by yourself and you´ll see how much support they have inside their own goverment.

https://www.parlament.cat/web/compos...ons/index.html

The pro independence parties have the majority of parliament. The people have voted for that outcome. Whether you, me, or anybody else agree with them or not, it's simply democracy.

If there is actually a side that has the reason just a bit ( and it´s pretty hard to say this becouse I´ve been anti-PP all my life) it´s the central goverment.

We can agree to disagree then. I think the Catalans have a bit more (although not by much) moral high ground in all of this. If the Spanish government had any advantadge, they lost it the moment they began this "operation" riddled with police searches (also illegal because apparently a lot of them were done without the proper warrants) and arrests.

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I honestly can see where they're coming from.

So can everyone: that's the point.
It's transparent and very simple. Just like in the case for the average Trump voter: the see their privileges diminishing, and see an opportunity to "get back" at the political class that let them down.

But you'll note that what the Catalan people do is just that: protest. And they have every right to do so. From the rooftops. Shouting their lungs out.
We're however discussing a referendum. Which is a political tool. One that the elite is presenting as "what the people want". Which is manipulative as it gets. The problem is not the Catalan people being easily manipulated: we all are. The problem is the ones that pull the strings: populist scumbags, like Trump, like Maduro, like Tsipras, like Duterte or, yes, like Puigdemont and Oriol Junqueras.

I'm consistently appealing to what these scumbags do:
That the Catalan elite live in a post-truth scenario where referendums can be held in defiance of the law, where accession to the EU is automatic, or where self-determination grantees the right to secede.
That the Catalan elite is using culture as a tool for division, and encourage division and xenophobia.
That the Catalan peoples are being fed lie after lie by the institutions that should seek their well being.
Nobody is surprised

You're displacing the blame from the Catalan elite towards the central elite, using the people as proxy.
The central elite may be a bunch of morons. But this is about the referendum, which rests exclusively on the Catalan elite's shoulders. And it's not just an illegal procedure. It's morally corrupt: they're robbing every Spaniard, and every Catalan, from their legitimate place in the constitutional order that they voted, also in referendum, with massive participation and support. It's abrogating their entire democracy, for a fistful of euros in concessions.

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Voting is not spitting on democracy, quite the contrary. What Catalonia is doing is breaking the law. In my opinion, laws should be used to serve the will of the people, not to suppress it when it happens to be inconvenient.

Don't remove context. This is not just "voting": it's voting in defiance of the rule of law.
All together, not just in pieces:
voting? - ok
breaking a law? - meh
voting in defiance of the rule of law? - ring the undemocratic alarm

If the laws don't fit the will, the laws can be changed. The Catalan elite is choosing not to pursue a change to the laws (the constitution in this case), and are choosing to promulgate their own different new laws, that don't fit in any democratic arrangement.

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We're however discussing a referendum. Which is a political tool. One that the elite is presenting as "what the people want". Which is manipulative as it gets.

You can argue that for every government policy on earth: "All of these people have willingly voted X who has Y policy, but it's not what they really want, they're just being manipulated". Could you be right? Maybe, but that isn't how democracy works. Sometimes people vote the wrong option and have to pay the price, but that doesn't give anybody the authority to blow up democratic legitimacy because they think the result is fruit of a manipulation or they simply don't agree with it. It's just one of the flaws of democracy itself, and it's almost impossible to fix.

Nevertheless, and trying to approach the whole situation from a more pragmatic angle, what solution would you propose? Over 75% of the Catalan population want to vote (both the Yes and the No camps), and that's a whooping 5 million people. How do you tell 5 million people that live in a democracy that they should just shut up and obey? Ignoring the issue altogether has clearly made it worse. Do you try to suppress it? Do you jail their democratically elected representatives? (that would look spectacular in the eyes of the international community). If there's no referendum, will everything magically go away afterwards?

Remember that any solution that doesn't involve reforming the constitution will only fuel the independence movement, and the Spanish goverment won't touch the constitution.

Regardless of who started the mess, it's here and it has to be dealt with in a civilised manner.

What would you do?

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Sometimes people vote the wrong option and have to pay the price, but that doesn't give anybody the authority to blow up democratic legitimacy

This is a problem indeed: the Spanish people voted a series of ridiculous governments for Madrid (Zapatero, then Rajoy). But that doesn't give the Catalan government the authority to piss all over democracy, as they're currently doing.
You are, again, displacing blame: the Catalan elite is the one undemocratically challenging the rule of law.

What would you do?

Several options:

Wait for Brexxit to happen. Rally a massively pro-EU base across the nation meanwhile. Argue that progress is looking over across the pyrenees. That Spain is the 4th economic power of the union. That they need to sit where the decisions are made, along with the France-Germany axis. That the issue of sovereignty is not about how to fracture it. But that further integration into Europe necessitates that sovereignty be transferred towards the EU in selected areas. And that they should be a decisive partner in a position of European leadership, instead of the usual "EU told us to do this and that". Optional: rally the same idea in Portugal (they have their differences, but their interests often align) and present a pan-Iberian union in common interests; not necessarily a merge of countries: just a political block much like V4.

Prep up a nation-wide party with the promise of such a constitutional reform. This could be Podemos, but it comes with a thousand strings attached, as they're just another protest party. Or it could be the socialists, which want to federalize the country already, but their support for the king makes it all a bit complicated.
Nevertheless, the will to have the possibility is not just a Catalan sentiment: many people across the country share the idea (some have posted in the thread). Modern Spain is a young country; they're yet to make any serious change to their constitution, and are still testing the waters of what these freedoms mean. It takes time and effort (unlike what the Catalan government are doing today, which is speedy route and 0 effort: just ignore that the rule of law exists).

Wait it out and forget. Eventually the economy will get better, and the central government will go back to their periodic granting of privileges and concessions to Catalonia.
They're special in that they waited for their dictator to die peacefully. And that was a terrible regime; surely they can wait for this one to get better.
Remarkably, they didn't even break with the old regime: they passed a law that worked within the Francoist regime to abolish the other Francoist laws, and then let the Francoist heir (the King, named by Franco himself) call for the referendum on the constitution. They called it "from the law to the law through the law". They like their laws, and they like not breaking them. I suspect this is why their constitution is funny in that in conflates the peoples with the nation, and the regions with the nationalities; but it's remarkably progressive anyway.

I think they should take the high road and go with the first. But my guess is they'll try the second, and revert on the last.