Why is the abortion debate framed as pro-choice vs pro-life?

[Total Crica]

Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty

Then strop trying to force pregnant women to remain pregnant against their wills, tyrant. That crap hurts. Source: have been pregnant.

[Halyon]

I guess it's more like 8 weeks where the systems are in place for the baby to feel pain, not 6 like I suggested.

Here is a hearing with this Doctor and who is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah.

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2005232013.pdf

Here are some of her comments based on her research.
“The neural circuitry responsible for the most primitive response to pain, the spinal reflex, is in place by 8 weeks of development. This is the earliest point at which the fetus experiences pain in any capacity.”

“To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development."

“There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced ; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.”

“Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,”

Did you read the part where she says that a very young fetus doesn't register pain like a born human does? The system is so primitive that 'feel pain' doesn't mean what you think it means. There's no person in there to experience that pain. If there is a response, it's automated. Like breathing, or the doctor tapping your knee. Action towards subject = subject responds.

So it might register pain, it doesn't actually feel it, it's physically incapable of experiencing it. That's why we say "it can't feel", because we use our standard of feeling. A fetus does not reach that standard. Not even close until later in the pregnancy, where elective abortion is banned from happening outside of medical emergencies.

[Vankrys]

No, they don't get to demand I remain pregnant no matter how much money they are willing to toss at me. I am not for sale to breed for them, sorry.

it was rhetorical of course. They are using the bleeding heart card, of the poor defenseless fetus they must protect, but the vast majority of the pro-lifer aren't going to give the same amount of care about actual people living nearby.

Mid class people complain about their health coverage premium fee going up, in part because they have to collectively pick the bill for health care insurance forbidden to refuse people with pre-existing condition. That increase the high risk pool, increase the cost for the health insurance company and thus increase premium across the board.

But no, fuck those a..hole with their pre existing, life threatening condition, they make my premium go up, repeal obamcare now, i want more money even if it means kicking millions of healthcare and people dying.

So there you have it, those people some care about others as long as they don't have to pick up the bill. It's completely hypocritical, just like their names are, pro-life. You are not pro life, you are anti freedom.

[pseudodraco]

if you believed someone's life was in danger, wouldnt you try stopping them being killed?

not arguing for or against anything here, but if you genuinely believe that a fetus counts as a living human being, then you dont want them to die, period.

TBh im not a big fan of abortions,but i also dont think you should just flat out forbid them.
it should really only be a last resort.

agreed. that's the problem however. most pro-life proponents want the option flat out removed and the pregnant woman in question to be forced to carry the pregnancy to term. In some cases, even in established medical cases where the pregnancy puts the woman's life at risk. Which is quite ridiculous since even in the orthodox church (very old school christian) they allow for abortions in that situation. possibly some nuance in cases of incest/rape, not sure

[Endus]

I guess it's more like 8 weeks where the systems are in place for the baby to feel pain, not 6 like I suggested.

Here is a hearing with this Doctor and who is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah.

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2005232013.pdf

Here are some of her comments based on her research.
“The neural circuitry responsible for the most primitive response to pain, the spinal reflex, is in place by 8 weeks of development. This is the earliest point at which the fetus experiences pain in any capacity.”

And at this point, it's experiencing "pain" in the same way that, say, a snail or an ant, feels pain. We're explicitly talking about a reaction to negative stimuli, not the inner experience that we generally describe as "pain".

“There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced ; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.”

Right, and most of those are clear that what she's describing doesn't count. Brain-dead patients can react similarly, but they're still corpses that are being kept warm.

“Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,”

And again, at best, this argues that the abortion should be as painless to the fetus as can be managed, and preserve it whole. It is not an argument against abortion in general.

[Tennis]

Plenty of people do not view a fetus as a baby, much less a human being. Why are you trying to make the assumption without evidence that a fetus has the and traits we consider a human to have? You're willfully misrepresenting reasonable views.

If someone had stabbed your mom when she was 9 months pregnant, you wouldn't be here right now. Your life would be over. Hence it's about life.

[Halyon]

If someone had stabbed your mom when she was 9 months pregnant, you wouldn't be here right now. Your life would be over. Hence it's about life.

9 months is right around birth...far above when elective abortion is even relevant.

[Vyuvarax]

If someone had stabbed your mom when she was 9 months pregnant, you wouldn't be here right now. Your life would be over. Hence it's about life.

Your claim here is incredibly disingenuous. Why are you going to nine months where no one is arguing over? Also has no bearing on responding in any logical fashion how a fetus is a baby as you've claimed. Your strawman makes you appear extremely foolish.

[Zeth Hawkins]

K. I murder my eggs, gotcha.

An impossibility in every sense of the word. Where have you acquired the idea that this is possible, and a reasonable argument for or against something?

[Total Crica]

Where have you acquired the idea that this is possible

Every-time I take an abortion pill, I flush my fertilized egg down the toilet a few days later. I am assuming it's not going to survive down there.

[Zeth Hawkins]

...that makes it unreliable.

I would say that the braking system in my Jeep is reliable. Should someone cut the brake cable, the reliability of it is not swapped to a polar negative, it is simply circumvented by an outside force.

Abstinence is reliable. Rape and abstinence are not one and the same.

- - - Updated - - -

K. Still waiting on YOU to remain pregnant with all these pregnancies you want to remain alive! Murderer!

This is not how reality works. Attempting to make an argument outside the realm of physical possibility only expresses the bigotry you hold toward ideas that do not run parallel to your own. If you wish to have reasoned discussion, we would all be more than welcoming to it.

[Coffeh]

someone got it into their head that they should decide what another person should do.

Or they're trying to speak for someone who can't speak for themselves.

[Total Crica]

If you wish to have reasoned discussion...

Me? I am not the one wanting to force people to remain pregnant against their wills, I am quite reasonable when I discuss this topic.

When YOU wish to, let ME know.

[Zeth Hawkins]

Nobody uses it as birth control! BC aims to PREVENT a pregnancy from happening. A pregnancy MUST be present for abortion to be a consideration. And many people who seek abortions already use BC and/or have children.

Semantically, based solely on the name "birth control", abortion could be considered as such, but it is a stretch.

[Total Crica]

Or they're trying to speak for someone who can't speak for themselves.

As soon as THEY are the one pregnant, they can speak for THEIR pregnancy all they want to.

[Halyon]

I would say that the braking system in my Jeep is reliable. Should someone cut the brake cable, the reliability of it is not swapped to a polar negative, it is simply circumvented by an outside force.

Abstinence is reliable. Rape and abstinence are not one and the same.

And that's why abstinence only sex ed is so effective, oh wait, it isn't. It raises pregnancy rate. People can be impulsive. People are impulsive. Sex is healthy for people. You can use the same argument about BC. BC is reliable. Much more reliable than abstinence. Until you have sex and the very low probability of pregnancy happens anyway. Same as being abstinent and tempted into having some fun anyway.

No method is 100% effective either way.

Or they're trying to speak for someone who can't speak for themselves.

There's a reason why it can't. It's not developed enough to do so, let alone form any kind of thought. So what's the point of speaking for it, other than appeal to emotion and/or special pleading?

[Zeth Hawkins]

Why is it a baby and not part of mother? What's the criteria?

The baby, or whichever term you would prefer, is its own being. I would ask if a parasite or leech is a "part of" the creature it is attached to.

[Antiganon]

The baby, or whichever term you would prefer, is its own being. I would ask if a parasite or leech is a "part of" the creature it is attached to.

I have a strong suspicion you wouldn't be advocating the leech's right to life as being more than (or even equal to) the bodily autonomy of the host.

[Zeth Hawkins]

If a corpse isn't a human being, because it lacks coherent brain activity, then an early-term fetus, by the same measure, cannot possibly be considered a human being.

A human corpse is still a human.

[Coffeh]

This really just boils down to the typical hypocrisy of the left.

Convicted rapist, murderer...don't execute that person. All life is precious!
Unborn baby...kill that little bugger!