So how much has attendance collapsed?

[Keltas]

I just came back after a break (guild fell apart at end of NH) and I have to reroll for my new guild since they have 5 of the class I was.

The legendary grind is soul crushing and I couldn't imagine any returning players willingly doing this just to get into raiding right now. Previous expansions was a lot better feeling, you could at least know in 8 weeks you'd have the ring/cloak with minimal grinding, and you would "definitely" have it by then. This new system you have to just grind against an endless wall with no idea when it'll end.

If this guild told me I needed better legendaries than the two garbage ones I got after 3 weeks of hardcore grinding, I would've just quit again.

I think that's a good real example of where all the returning players went.

[Hahyestwo]

The legendary grind is soul crushing and I couldn't imagine any returning players willingly doing this just to get into raiding right now. Previous expansions was a lot better feeling, you could at least know in 8 weeks you'd have the ring/cloak with minimal grinding, and you would "definitely" have it by then. This new system you have to just grind against an endless wall with no idea when it'll end.

If this guild told me I needed better legendaries than the two garbage ones I got after 3 weeks of hardcore grinding, I would've just quit again.

I think that's a good real example of where all the returning players went.

I agree with this 100%. I keep wanting to come back because I enjoy raiding and like the players in my guild, but facerolling outdated/piss easy (like m0 being "optimal" for leggo farming) content every week to fish for 1 item isn't fun to me. I just run a weekly m+, do normal tos, and say screw it.

[Siglius]

Already rerolled, as I said before. It's very funny to be forced into the bullshit legendary grind all over again. Apparently Blizzard can dumpster your class and it's fine, damn if you dare to complain about it.

Few weeks passed and your DH tank switched to druid. Coincidence? I think not.

Yeah, he rerolled cause he got luffas on his bear and decided it would be beneficial for the raid. He's both GM and raidleader, so nobody forced his hand, per say.

Point about warrior still stands tho.

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I just came back after a break (guild fell apart at end of NH) and I have to reroll for my new guild since they have 5 of the class I was.

The legendary grind is soul crushing and I couldn't imagine any returning players willingly doing this just to get into raiding right now. Previous expansions was a lot better feeling, you could at least know in 8 weeks you'd have the ring/cloak with minimal grinding, and you would "definitely" have it by then. This new system you have to just grind against an endless wall with no idea when it'll end.

If this guild told me I needed better legendaries than the two garbage ones I got after 3 weeks of hardcore grinding, I would've just quit again.

I think that's a good real example of where all the returning players went.

Please teach me how you maxed your ring in WoD with "Minimal grinding".

[Keltas]

Yeah, he rerolled cause he got luffas on his bear and decided it would be beneficial for the raid. He's both GM and raidleader, so nobody forced his hand, per say.

Point about warrior still stands tho.

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Please teach me how you maxed your ring in WoD with "Minimal grinding".

The ring requires a single clear of one difficulty per week when on boss killing steps, and other steps were generally quick to catch up on. It was inifinitely less grindy than current legendaries (If you're returning and trying to get them as quickly as possible).

[Siglius]

The ring requires a single clear of one difficulty per week when on boss killing steps, and other steps were generally quick to catch up on. It was inifinitely less grindy than current legendaries (If you're returning and trying to get them as quickly as possible).

I meant actually maxing it, the part requiring you to kill archimonde every week for like 2 months. Maybe less grindy in nature, but still to ages to catch up.

[Keltas]

I meant actually maxing it, the part requiring you to kill archimonde every week for like 2 months. Maybe less grindy in nature, but still to ages to catch up.

It was a lot less important, and was definitely not grindy like current legendaries. It was just kill one boss a week. It was also guaranteed. That's a big part of what makes the current system hurt so much as a returning player. With that, I knew every week I caught up more just by actually raiding.

[Greyvax]

attendance has collapsed since you can get better gear from WQ's, veiled argunite and mythic+ than you can from ToS right now.

[cface]

I meant actually maxing it, the part requiring you to kill archimonde every week for like 2 months. Maybe less grindy in nature, but still to ages to catch up.

I have no idea when I will get that one legendary that boosts my ST by a good margin. Atleast the archimonde grind was slowly progressing, now I don't know if my ST will suffer for months or if it drops today. Its pure cancer

[david0925]

attendance has collapsed since you can get better gear from WQ's, veiled argunite and mythic+ than you can from ToS right now.

that's only true if you do normal, and considering how crucible has trivialized the already really easy heroic it's really just about people not getting cold feet. WQ caps at 895 base, argunuite at 910 base, and m+ at 915 base. Raids also has smaller loot table and access to tier bonus. If you're going to bring lucky titanforge into the equation, higher base is still going to give you chance for better ilvl.

The issue is always risk versus reward, and the difficulty jump from normal to heroic outside of avatar and KJ is basically negligible.

[Deleted]

The raiding scene on my server seems as active as ever.

If your raiders quit over new progression on professions (not a reset), it was probably long in the making.

And time spent in-game grows by the quarter, so "what you can do about it" is either recruit more, or join a guild that isn't falling apart. This held true for every iteration of the game, FYI.

AP catchup is extremely potent, "new players" not "having AP" is bullshit. Concordance is easy to reach, and going beyond that is made easier with every week as new AK is added automatically.

New players not having Legendaries is not a problem, they'll get them by playing the game through bad-luck protection. Will they have a pile of leggos to choose from off the bat like players having stuck with Legion since the start? Probably not, but that's the price of playing an MMORPG where someone's always going to be more progressed. "They have to play a lot" sounds pretty funny, considering they willingly signed up for an MMORPG in the first place, not a single-player game... If they got the drive to raid, they got the drive to progress their characters to an acceptable level.

It is propably beocuse of crossrealm. Withtout it your realm would be dead.

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Guild is dead from constant roster issues

I'm really hoping that they announce the return of 10man at Blizzcon, requirement of 20 players for max content is so bullshit I couldn't give two shits anymore about balance between 20/10man

It will not fix anything. You will have same issues finding players just like for 20man. Maybe Blizzard should rather make mythic raiding more exclusive so people would start actualy care about bosses and loot. I would really love to know how many players mythic raiding scene lost beoucse of how accessible game has become. I have seen so many player quit Mthic just becouse they have far easyer options like LFR and normal. And who would bother do Mythic when it is exact same content.

[Lolsteak]

Guilds pretty much dead, Oh well onto other games

[Krothare]

You can complain all you want the truth is you adapt or you stand and die by your decisions.
It is the same in real life as well.

Don't compare video games to real life. This is 110% totally on Blizzard, if an encounter realistically cannot be handled by every class then it should never have been shipped.

[Deleted]

if they bring back 10-man I think alot of people will resub. I dont even care if the content is harder, easier or shit loots. Just give me 10 man.

[Sakred]

We were realm 2nd and have had to cut 1 or 2 days a week now due to attendance issues.

Blizzard really burned people out and the fact they basically reset the grind on professions and the game with Argus makes recruitment even hard as older players quit and newer players don't have any legendaries or AP.

Sure they can catch up, but they have to play a lot per Legion game design.

Pretty sure the guild will just fall apart in a few weeks. What can you do?

Here is why. We are showered with gear right now. Players can get a full tier set in the first few days of a raids release. Bonus rolls, class hall quests, weekend quests, all contribute to the lightning fast pace of gearing. Most players are fine once they get a full set of heroic gear. The motivation for mythic gear isn't really there. Now there's the opposite side of it. Gearing too slow. I remember my guild killing Rotface the week the plague wing was released. We had a DFO drop. That was in January. We didn't see another DFO. Not a single one until October. And we cleared ICC every week. That was a little ridiculous. Now there has to be a middle ground.

Gearing too fast makes players consume content too fast. The "carrot on the stick" is necessary to keep people playing. People will dispute this, but we're seeing the effects of blizz taking it away right now. Blizz needs to get rid of bonus rolls, class hall raid quests, and lower the amount of gear that drops per boss kill slightly. I know this is an unpopular view, but give players most of what they want quickly, and the motivation to keep running the same content over and over goes away.

[Radaney]

Social aspect of this game is literally in the dumpster. Guild loyalty is non-existant due to people not playing together within guilds outside of like 5 people who regularly play with each other so the other 15+ people have no attachment to the guild. This means guild hopping, players quitting and massive roster and attendance issues which has become a massive more visible problem since WoD.

I've had 4 guilds die on me in this expansion alone when I usually stay in 1 or 2 in an expansion or across expansions. A bit confirmation bias just using my perspective but I've heard and seen similar things across the server and from friends the past 2 expansions.

[Sakred]

if they bring back 10-man I think alot of people will resub. I dont even care if the content is harder, easier or shit loots. Just give me 10 man.

10 man exists right now. Just not on mythic. Making 10 mans will do nothing. The amount of people that have raided the highest difficulty has always been a fraction of the playerbase. The problem isn't 10 man mythic raiding.

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Social aspect of this game is literally in the dumpster. Guild loyalty is non-existant due to people not playing together within guilds outside of like 5 people who regularly play with each other so the other 15+ people have no attachment to the guild. This means guild hopping, players quitting and massive roster and attendance issues which has become a massive more visible problem since WoD.

I've had 4 guilds die on me in this expansion alone when I usually stay in 1 or 2 in an expansion or across expansions. A bit confirmation bias just using my perspective but I've heard and seen similar things across the server and from friends the past 2 expansions.

Why join a guild when you can just pug heroic raids through group finder? My warlock hit 110 2 weeks ago. I'm already at 925 ilvl. You don't need a guild to do things anymore.

[Radaney]

Why join a guild when you can just pug heroic raids through group finder? My warlock hit 110 2 weeks ago. I'm already at 925 ilvl. You don't need a guild to do things anymore.

This only applies if you make your own group and the group doesn't see and announce your ilevel to the raid, you need a guild or friends to get to the ilevel pugs allow, so you're either bullshitting or lucked out.

[Echocho]

Considering there are only 3.7 million subscribers left, finding replacements are getting harder and harder.

[Exotath]

I'd say I burned myself out more than the game burning me out. Was more the raid tier overall too.

[Ebalina]

Don't compare video games to real life. This is 110% totally on Blizzard, if an encounter realistically cannot be handled by every class then it should never have been shipped.

And the decision to quit or continue playing is totally on you/him kinda like you make decisions in real life to stick around for something you like or bail if you think you can't overcome.
Try to see further then your own nose.