Upcoming nerf to Resto Druid T19 4P set bonus

[Deleted]

Relative to HPal/Disc on Avatar/KJ, Druid was overnerfed. Relative to MW/HPriest on Avatar/KJ, Druid is nowhere near nerfed enough.
It's easy to whine about not topping meters when your raid spot is already guaranteed anyway.

[roi]

Doesn't matter at all, with the same patch ilvl cap will be 985, making t19 entirely irrelevant anyway.

Also t21 is looking pretty good?

[Leafcast]

Doesn't matter at all, with the same patch ilvl cap will be 985, making t19 entirely irrelevant anyway.

Also t21 is looking pretty good?

If current PTR goes live as is for Rdruid T21, it will be a massive upgrade.

[procne]

I gave up my t19, cos ilevel was getting too low.
T20 is complete trash, so i stay with the high ilevel non-set until blizz fixes this shit set.

Actually, T20 has its uses. On bosses like mythic Harjatan my healing from efflorescense jumps above 20% of my overall healing. But that fight is perfect for it. For other bossses are around 10-15%

[SafariDiscoLion]

I am perfectly happy with T19 getting dumpstered. It should have happened at the same time as everyone else's, with T20 made to not be garbage. I remember when the t20 set bonuses were leaked and the entire Discord thought the bonuses were just placeholders and would just be replaced with something else before release. Then it got closer and closer and we're like "hahaha nice placeholders, now where are the real bonuses? guys? hello? blizz are you there?"

The fact that we've gone this long with the vast majority of higher end RDruids sticking with 4pc 19 and pretending t20 doesn't exist is asinine. t19 was stupidly powerful in a raid tier where RDruids were already strong, yes, and it was a lot of fun to play at the time. I'd really like to move on to something else now, especially for a healing class that has stayed almost entirely the same since MoP except losing the Efflo explosion thing. I'm really hoping the next expansion changes things up a little bit, otherwise I'm probably going feral/guardian out of sheer boredom.

[Tiberria]

So, with the huge buffs to the set bonuses of other healers tonight, can we dismiss the argument that T21 will somehow correct the overall issue? It appears they are tuning the bonuses to be about equal with each other.

Disc 2 pc +50%
Disc 4 pc +112%
MW 4 pc +1200%
RShaman 2 pc +450%
RShaman 4 pc +33%

[kooz]

Actually, T20 has its uses. On bosses like mythic Harjatan my healing from efflorescense jumps above 20% of my overall healing. But that fight is perfect for it. For other bossses are around 10-15%

Efflo with t20 will jump high on many fights, does not mean t20 will perform better than t19+shoulders on all of them

In fact, I only use t20 for Host, don't see any other use otherwise.

[Zan15]

So, with the huge buffs to the set bonuses of other healers tonight, can we dismiss the argument that T21 will somehow correct the overall issue? It appears they are tuning the bonuses to be about equal with each other.

Disc 2 pc +50%
Disc 4 pc +112%
MW 4 pc +1200%
RShaman 2 pc +450%
RShaman 4 pc +33%

Tier never fixes class balance issues. has been proven time and time again they will nerf of buff them before live and after if they are that big of an impact. they would rather do that through spell changes.

[Pokas]

I really don't understand the point on many of these balance discussions. A while ago, druid had to have the best HPS of all classes because of "low quality healing" (which makes absolutely no sense, different patterns of healing serve different patters of damage, a HoT heal is way more valuable to heal constant low damage than ST, would you holy shock a character missing 5% life?), but now the point is that "you never wipe due to lack of healing". If you take this point, druids are still absolutely nuts. Zero mobility limitation, little affected by no-stack bosses, excellent survivability, the very best single target CD in the game, excellent and consistent raid CD. Take a Holy Priest, for example, how can you compete with these when you have the worst mobility in the game, the worst survivability in the game, a worse version of tranquility and a single target CD with a reasonable effect, but an insanely high cooldown. Monks face an even worse scenario. Now, just imagine if, with all of these effect going against you, you still had a worse output. That's exactly what happened in NH, in which the distance between the aggregated parses between the best (druids) and the second best (HPriest) where bigger than the distance between the best now (DPriests) and the worst (RDruid) parsing.
Druid absolutely need to have a worse output than other healers, due to the excellent toolkit. And I am talking about raids, if we start to talk about M+, it just get hilarious absurd.

[Pokas]

I really don't understand the point on many of these balance discussions. A while ago, druid had to have the best HPS of all classes because of "low quality healing" (which makes absolutely no sense, different patterns of healing serve different patters of damage, a HoT heal is way more valuable to heal constant low damage than ST, would you holy shock a character missing 5% life?), but now the point is that "you never wipe due to lack of healing". If you take this point, druids are still absolutely nuts. Zero mobility limitation, little affected by no-stack bosses, excellent survivability, the very best single target CD in the game, excellent and consistent raid CD. Take a Holy Priest, for example, how can you compete with these when you have the worst mobility in the game, the worst survivability in the game, a worse version of tranquility and a single target CD with a reasonable effect, but an insanely high cooldown. Monks face an even worse scenario. Now, just imagine if, with all of these effects going against you, you still had a worse output. That's exactly what happened in NH, in which the distance between the aggregated parses between the best (druids) and the second best (HPriest) where bigger than the distance between the best now (DPriests) and the worst (RDruid) parsing.
Druid absolutely need to have a worse output than other healers, due to the excellent toolkit. And I am talking about raids, if we start to talk about M+, it just get hilariously absurd.

[Tiberria]

Druid absolutely need to have a worse output than other healers, due to the excellent toolkit. And I am talking about raids, if we start to talk about M+, it just get hilariously absurd.

Now, you are just being ridiculous/biased. Sure, Druids have an advantage when it comes to mobility, but that is a niche of the spec, and it's offset by disadvantages like lack of single target burst and triage healing. You can turn around and make the same argument about Paladins and having the best single target and LoH or about Shaman and having a mastery that gives them the best throughput when it matters, and go on and on, and you'd be wasting your time. All specs have niches/advantages/disadvantages.

And from a raid utility perspective, if you think that Druids bring a more desirable toolkit than say Shaman or Paladins, you are being delusional.

[Deleted]

Talking about druid toolkit as if shaman doesn't bring ten times more utility to the table is laughable.

However, druids having low HPS isn't an issue. The fact is that due to the way druids deliver that healing, they will never truly be weak. It's the same situation with old pre-wod disc priests and power word shield: Hots are just strong, and having a healer that can put a lot of them out, on a lot of people, makes druid a very strong healer. Even if the HPS isn't on par with the paladin's. Also other healers are much better at sniping damage which will put the druid behind on meters. This and many other factors make healing meters/parses a very, very lacklustre way to gauge healer performance. I say this as someone with 12 years of experience as a resto druid who has a lot of raiding experience, among others every cutting edge achievement in Legion up until now.

Druids are absolutely strong, even if you don't top the HPS meters. And if you're using HPS meters as an argument for why other healers need a nerf/druids need buffs, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Pokas]

Now, you are just being ridiculous/biased. Sure, Druids have an advantage when it comes to mobility, but that is a niche of the spec, and it's offset by disadvantages like lack of single target burst and triage healing. You can turn around and make the same argument about Paladins and having the best single target and LoH or about Shaman and having a mastery that gives them the best throughput when it matters, and go on and on, and you'd be wasting your time. All specs have niches/advantages/disadvantages.

And from a raid utility perspective, if you think that Druids bring a more desirable toolkit than say Shaman or Paladins, you are being delusional.

So let's say that you bring druids' HPS back to something similar to NH, which is what this topic seems to debate, what would be monks/HPriest niche? Being a worse druid? Because that is exactly what happened in NH. I agree with Shamans and HPalas, the fact they play necessary roles is a problem that should be addressed in the next expansion, but the "Raw HPS Spot" is usually contended by HPriests vs RDruids vs Monks and in NH there was not even a fair fight and, as of ToS, even with druids having a worse output, they are still desirable due to having a way better toolkit than the others, but at least there is a discussion for which healer to bring.
Druids' output is fine as it is, bringing it back to top HPS would just bring back the problematic healer situation from NH.

[Deleted]

And from a raid utility perspective, if you think that Druids bring a more desirable toolkit than say Shaman or Paladins, you are being delusional.

really makes you think

[Marrilaife]

And I am talking about raids, if we start to talk about M+, it just get hilariously absurd.

You mean like this m+ invitational where nearly every healer was druid or paladin? Looking forward to how finals are gonna shape...

[beaver1024]

So let's say that you bring druids' HPS back to something similar to NH, which is what this topic seems to debate ...

I don't think anyone wants that. I would settle for the reversion of the 4% nerf. Prior to NH (without the 4% nerf) druids were on par with all the other healers. In fact healer balance was very good in EN. With T19, the balance tilted. I'm fine with T19 being nerfed but I was under the impression that the -4% aura was applied because of T19.

What they should have done is nerfed T19 at the start and not apply the -4% aura. Not sure why they didn't do this. Obviously the bonus of T19 in conjunction with the legendary shoulder was still too much.

[Aggrophobic]

You mean like this m+ invitational where nearly every healer was druid or paladin? Looking forward to how finals are gonna shape...

You bring a druid for the res though, not for tis output.
Battle res is silly op in mythic+.

[Deleted]

Efflo with t20 will jump high on many fights, does not mean t20 will perform better than t19+shoulders on all of them

In fact, I only use t20 for Host, don't see any other use otherwise.

Harjatan (M), Maiden (M)

[Pokas]

I don't think anyone wants that. I would settle for the reversion of the 4% nerf. Prior to NH (without the 4% nerf) druids were on par with all the other healers. In fact healer balance was very good in EN. With T19, the balance tilted. I'm fine with T19 being nerfed but I was under the impression that the -4% aura was applied because of T19.

What they should have done is nerfed T19 at the start and not apply the -4% aura. Not sure why they didn't do this. Obviously the bonus of T19 in conjunction with the legendary shoulder was still too much.

I don't think anyone wants that. I would settle for the reversion of the 4% nerf. Prior to NH (without the 4% nerf) druids were on par with all the other healers. In fact healer balance was very good in EN. With T19, the balance tilted. I'm fine with T19 being nerfed but I was under the impression that the -4% aura was applied because of T19.

What they should have done is nerfed T19 at the start and not apply the -4% aura. Not sure why they didn't do this. Obviously the bonus of T19 in conjunction with the legendary shoulder was still too much.

There are a few things being discussed in this thread:
a) T21 must be strong for druids to be competitive (a few posts above you can actually see it called "overall issue")
b) Baseline druid is bad

In ToS, it was required HPriests do have an INSANE T20 to compete with druids and still I believe most guilds would bring a RDruid over a HPriest of same skill level, even with a lower output (after all, you rarely wipe due to the lack of healing). Monks are even worse, because, even though they have the "melee cheese" and a reasonable mobility, their output is in level with RDruids and their CDs, both single target and AoE, are a joke.

The point is, Druids SHOULD have a worse output than both Monks and HPriests, due to a better toolkit than both these specs. The "HoT is bad" argument makes absolutely no sense, it is just a different pattern of healing that serve a valuable purpose, just look at non stack bosses, eg P1 Avatar, and see how strong HoTs are.

I know that we have 2 other problematic classes: HPala with a reasonable output, a ridiculous and unfair raid CD and absurdly stupid survivability + melee cheese and Shamans, with a few buttons that trivialize some mechanics. But a lot of players here seem to think that druids have to have an insane output + insane mobility + excellent survivability + excellent raid CD + the best single target CD to brute force their competition with the 2 mandatory specs.

Overall, I know that these problems cant be fixed mid expansions, but I hope Blizzard learned the lesson about healers: utility/survivability/mobility/CDs are more valuable than raw output for healers, so we dont have more HPalas and RShamans in the future.

[Tiberria]

There are a few things being discussed in this thread:
a) T21 must be strong for druids to be competitive (a few posts above you can actually see it called "overall issue")
b) Baseline druid is bad

In ToS, it was required HPriests do have an INSANE T20 to compete with druids and still I believe most guilds would bring a RDruid over a HPriest of same skill level, even with a lower output (after all, you rarely wipe due to the lack of healing). Monks are even worse, because, even though they have the "melee cheese" and a reasonable mobility, their output is in level with RDruids and their CDs, both single target and AoE, are a joke.

The point is, Druids SHOULD have a worse output than both Monks and HPriests, due to a better toolkit than both these specs. The "HoT is bad" argument makes absolutely no sense, it is just a different pattern of healing that serve a valuable purpose, just look at non stack bosses, eg P1 Avatar, and see how strong HoTs are.

I know that we have 2 other problematic classes: HPala with a reasonable output, a ridiculous and unfair raid CD and absurdly stupid survivability + melee cheese and Shamans, with a few buttons that trivialize some mechanics. But a lot of players here seem to think that druids have to have an insane output + insane mobility + excellent survivability + excellent raid CD + the best single target CD to brute force their competition with the 2 mandatory specs.

Overall, I know that these problems cant be fixed mid expansions, but I hope Blizzard learned the lesson about healers: utility/survivability/mobility/CDs are more valuable than raw output for healers, so we dont have more HPalas and RShamans in the future.

If you're going to argue that healers should have output scaled up and down based on toolkit and that Druids need lower throughput than Mistweavers and Holy Priests, then you by correlation also need to argue that Druids absolutely need to have higher output than Paladins and Shaman. Druids currently have lower output than either of those specs, so it's absolutely reasonable to argue that the spec is weak and needs buffs.

In reality, the argument about Druids needing less throughput than HPriest/MW is mostly bullshit, because you aren't taking into account several factors.
1. Yes, healing being predicated on instant cast HoTs makes the spec very mobile. However, it also has the disadvantage that all of its throughput is tied up in HoTs which take much longer to heal for their full value than direct healing spells. The advantage of the mobility is offset by the length of the HoT. HoTs aren't good if you need immediate burst healing or triage healing, and both of those things are very relevant/prevalent during progression.
2. The type of damage pattern Holy Priests have is immensely valuable. Their Holy Words are hugely game changing single target saves or raid AoE mini-cooldowns, with some ability to control how frequently they can be used.
3. On top of that, you like to rail about Divine Hymn, but the only real problem with it is that it can't be cast while moving. It looks a lot worse on logs than it really is, because logs don't account for the fact that some of DH's healing rolls into Echo of Light and that DH makes every other healer heal for 10% more for like 20 seconds. If you factor that in, it's really about as good as HTT/Tranq.
4. MW have a lot of advantages that are underrated. Revival again doesn't look as good on meters as other raid CDs and is better used as a snap reaction than part of a CD rotation , but the instant nature of it means it can save a raid in places where an 8 second duration CD wouldn't be fast enough. They also have the melee cheese like you said, and another huge benefit MW have during progression is the ability to reset bosses. Being able to reset bosses on a pull that's obviously not worth continuing saves a LOT of time compared to using HPriest cloak or pylons and waiting for everyone to die and then be rezzed given how bad some of the ToS and NH runbacks are.