We have to grind for raid nerfs too?

[Archmage Alodi]

Are you kidding? In "simpler times" warlocks had to farm soul shards. Everyone had to have 10,000 potions, resist gear, attunements, etc. Take those nostalgia goggles off.

Agreed , i don't miss farming feathers for slow fall -_-

[Deleted]

Back in WoWs "Simpler" times, there was grinding too, with reps and professions, trying to get good gear and patterns from painful sources which took ages.

That's completely different thing and its optional.

Are you kidding? In "simpler times" warlocks had to farm soul shards. Everyone had to have 10,000 potions, resist gear, attunements, etc. Take those nostalgia goggles off.

You are confusing simple, as in pre-Legion times with vanilla. Nobody is asking for vanilla.

[Super Kami Dende]

Hey look another thread crying about AP. This is new and interesting. Oh wait, not it isn't.

AP is hardly a grind. You can be Heroic-raid ready within 2 weeks of hitting max level.

Legion is literally one of the easiest ever times in WoW to gear and get an Alt raid-ready for post Normal-Mode content. People need to stop being ADHD twats.

Ironically the people I see complaining about grinds the most on these forums are also the people I always see crying about wanting the game to go back to Vanilla or wanting Legacy servers. The irony is highly lulworthy.

[Deleted]

In wrath we got a buff (30% more damage, health, and healing). In Cata we got a debuff to the bosses (reduced health and damage). In MoP and WoD we got valor upgrades

In Legion we have AP farming

Difference is AP farming is infinite, titanforge, legendaries and crubicle are entirely RNG. Can't improve if it all depends on luck.

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Legion is literally one of the easiest ever times in WoW to gear and get an Alt raid-ready for post Normal-Mode content. People need to stop being ADHD twats.

What?

Before Legion: get gear.

Legion: get lucky with legendaries, farm weeks (used to be months) worth of AP and get gear.

[Super Kami Dende]

Difference is AP farming is infinite, titanforge, legendaries and crubicle are entirely RNG. Can't improve if it all depends on luck.

As opposed to "old" WoW where once you get BiS in a slot you couldn't improve your gear any further in that department, making entire bosses pointless for many people.

Also AP being infinite means you can continually improve.

[Emerald Archer]

That's completely different thing and its optional.

Uh, AP grinding is just as optional.

Seems like you people just want WoD back, land where you had to do literally nothing outside of raid.

[Super Kami Dende]

What?

Before Legion: get gear.

Legion: get lucky with legendaries, farm weeks (used to be months) worth of AP and get gear.

Ahh yes, you are one of THOSE players, that think without legendaries you can't raid. Also AP takes 1-2 days at max level to have concordance and Gear is the easiest it has ever been in WoW to obtain.

[Deleted]

As opposed to "old" WoW where once you get BiS in a slot you couldn't improve your gear any further in that department, making entire bosses pointless for many people.

Also AP being infinite means you can continually improve.

Or you can look at it like this: the longer you farm bosses, the higher chances are to get titanforge gear, the more AP you have, the harder it is for others to catch up. AP and titanforge makes catch up almost impossible.

You ignore bad sides of system and focus on the only good side.

[Deleted]

I quite like the AP system. There is always something to do. WQs have not become obsolete (I like doing them to switch off after work). Heck, even mythic+0s are still a thing because of them, even for players that wouldn't normally go there any more. Also, it doesn't give THAT much an advantage (as compared to the first iteration of it), and if you don't want to grind, then you don't have to. In 5-6 weeks, getting to 72 or even 75 won't be much of an effort.

War/Titanforging on the other hand is a complete joke and takes even more incentive away to raid mythic. There are purely heroic-level players that are as well or better equipped than some mythic raiders, and this is an absolute no-go. Go back to WoD style: Warforged 5 ilvl, titanforged 10 ilvl. For all I care, even 15 ilvl but at a greatly reduced chance, so that once in a long time (2-3 months) you might get a heroic item that procs to a mythic item.

[Deleted]

Ahh yes, you are one of THOSE players, that think without legendaries you can't raid. Also AP takes 1-2 days at max level to have concordance and Gear is the easiest it has ever been in WoW to obtain.

No, I'm one of those people who thinks its unfair that some people perform better than others just because of luck. AP doesn't end with concordance, there is crubicle to grind that massively improves your character.

I like to have reachable end goals. I don't like pure lottery.

[KaPe]

This isn't anything new. It just has a new name. We used to farm valor points for "raid nerfs" as well, to upgrade all our gear with a few item levels.

Personally, I much prefer the "work-for-rewards" approach that VP and Crucible/AP is, compared to just an instant raid-wide nerf. It means people putting in effort into the game grows in power, while those who don't bother won't see any major benefits.

Valor Points required 2-3 weeks of farming and after that you were done, only doing couple 5 mans if you got a new item. Crucible is forcibly delayed through AK, requires a lot of farming to actually benefit from said raid nerfs *and* has RNG on top of it. It combines the worst qualities of both systems to reach a new low.

[Elbob]

No, I'm one of those people who thinks its unfair that some people perform better than others just because of luck. AP doesn't end with concordance, there is crubicle to grind that massively improves your character.

I like to have reachable end goals. I don't like pure lottery.

Are you also protesting against rppm? crit chance variance? cause these are also hugely driven by luck and can have more impact on performance then leggos. Also there is catch up in the AP game, its called AK. Every hour some one spends grinding AP this week is 30% easier next week. Even if some one spends a few extra hours per week doing ap grind that you don't do you will continue to only be 2-3 points in CoL behind them.

The leggo lottery is solved the same way every expansion worked... playing the game. How did you earn valor in wod and mop to upgrade your gear? Doing raids and 5 mans.... guess how you get leggos in Legion. Raids and Dungeons! They even gave you MORE sources with them dropping off rares, treasure chests and dailies! What a world.

[Deleted]

Are you also protesting against rppm? crit chance variance? cause these are also hugely driven by luck and can have more impact on performance then leggos. Also there is catch up in the AP game, its called AK. Every hour some one spends grinding AP this week is 30% easier next week. Even if some one spends a few extra hours per week doing ap grind that you don't do you will continue to only be 2-3 points in CoL behind them.

I don't even... what kind of strawman is that? "It gets easier next week" is not a catch up system, its time gated system. Some abilities having RNG is not excuse for adding more layers of RNG.

The leggo lottery is solved the same way every expansion worked... playing the game. How did you earn valor in wod and mop to upgrade your gear? Doing raids and 5 mans.... guess how you get leggos in Legion. Raids and Dungeons! They even gave you MORE sources with them dropping off rares, treasure chests and dailies! What a world.

*facepalm* Do you even read what you posted?

Old way: get gear, do some dungeons/raids for valor, upgrade your gear. Pretty much straight forward. You might already have valor or it might take 1-2 weeks to get it. Goal is easy to reach. Grind time: few weeks top.

New way: do same content for months, then maybe, just maybe, you will get legendary, but maybe not. No goal in sight, just endless grind, HOPING that one day item will drop, you could be handicapped for months because of RNG and nothing you can do to fix that. Grind time: could be days, could be weeks, could be (most likely) months, could be never. Pure lottery.

How could one even think those things are similar? That takes massive mental gymnastics.

[8bithamster]

That's completely different thing and its optional.


You are confusing simple, as in pre-Legion times with vanilla. Nobody is asking for vanilla.

and you never played back then it seems..

Onyxia scale cloak was optional?
Frost resistance was optional?
Nature resistance was optional?

hahaha..

[Deleted]

I don't even... what kind of strawman is that? "It gets easier next week" is not a catch up system, its time gated system. Some abilities having RNG is not excuse for adding more layers of RNG.

Timegates in itself arent that bad. It actually protects people (like you, I assume) from themselves. Some/Many have the tendency to overindulge and eat the whole content of the pantry just to then complain that they are starving a week after.

This specific timegate is done even better: You can actually do stuff today already, it just takes more effort. Isn't that what you are propagating: More effort/skill = more power, as opposed to luck?

*facepalm* Do you even read what you posted?

Old way: get gear, do some dungeons/raids for valor, upgrade your gear. Pretty much straight forward. You might already have valor or it might take 1-2 weeks to get it. Goal is easy to reach. Grind time: few weeks top.

New way: do same content for months, then maybe, just maybe, you will get legendary, but maybe not. No goal in sight, just endless grind, HOPING that one day item will drop, you could be handicapped for months because of RNG and nothing you can do to fix that. Grind time: could be days, could be weeks, could be (most likely) months, could be never. Pure lottery.

How could one even think those things are similar? That takes massive mental gymnastics.

So basically you want WoD back, where there is actually nothing to do except raid? Fine, good for you. You just have to accept that there are others (and from a gut-feel, probably the majority of wow subs) that don't agree with that. They don't raid (competitively), so they do care about the possibility of constant smaller power increases simply by playing the game.

Regarding Legendaries, I'm not really sure if you actually played wow in the last 6-8 months. You get roughly 1 legendary per ID if you put in the required effort. Again, not luck, but effort. Yes, there might be others that get their "BIS" (which is highly highly debatable as the differences between the leggies are quite small by now) out of luck, but that doesn't change the fact that you can get yours through harder "work".

[HuxNeva]

How would you 'broaden' the success rate over time? Given that skill is not going up dramatically, or at least not faster than patience declines for most, you have to do it through either direct nerfs to the instance, or indirect nerfs (buffs or gear). In the latter case if you only make the higher gear drop from the instance, the people that lacked the skills and therefore needed the gear are left in a stalemate, while those that didn't need it get extra buffed. The WF/TF has the benefit of being less 'in your face' due to the variance, and has proven addictive (replayability) qualities. Which system for gradual nerfs do you prefer? (those that want to argue 'none, just get gud', fine, but it"s not going to happen or obvious reasons if you think it through)

[cparle87]

There's nothing wrong with grinding, it's an MMO. There should be a grind, something to push for, to achieve. Ap does that quite well, maybe make it a little less important that it is, how it was prior to nlc but after conc was good, small upgrades but nothing worth freaking out over. Constant feeling of progression without getting gear.

Titanforging is a big issue though, that needs to be capped at 10ilvls higher than the original piece.

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Back in WoWs "Simpler" times, there was grinding too, with reps and professions, trying to get good gear and patterns from painful sources which took ages.

There's nothing wrong with a grind, it just needs to be managed better, titanforging shouldn't be like it is now at all, and AP is good it just needs to be a lot less important. Either a lower power gain, or yeah, a reasonable end goal.

Don't forget resist sets and consumables up the wazoo.

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But it's because of titanforge that heroic was not obsolete, and even normal for trinkets. Even 940 players in top guilds still run heroic for TF.

Or to the pessimists they're "being forced to run old, boring, stale content." I see this a lot. Being forced to run older raids for tforge trinkets like Ursoc's.

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Because if there was only gear with no titanforging and no grinding at all, we would go back to WoD, and everyone knows how that went.

Well, WoD did have +6 item level warforging, random sockets, and tertiary stats. Hardcore people were running the difficulty below hoping for a trifecta.

[Stormbornsham]

Legion is becoming one big farce. Instead of gear and direct numbers adjustments nerfing raid encounters over time, these nerfs are being gated behind AP grinds and the like.

7.2 - regrinding to 52 for Concordance
7.3 - grinding for Netherlight Crucible

I think this is setting a dangerous precedent for the game. It is impossible to tune raid encounters correctly in a world littered with Titanforging and non-gear character power offered through grinding, as we have seen this entire expansion with the many overtuned and undertuned and unpolished raids that have been released thus far. As a result, the quality of the raid content suffers and the players suffer through additional pointless grinds.

What do we have to grind for next? 9,000 GearEXP™ before we can equip armour pieces? Where will the buck stop?

For me both are okay, people just dont like to accept that others could have better items than them only by luck, like old game used to be, and legendaryes should have been.

If you pay attention only obsessed mythic ultra hardcore raiders AND people who pretend or try to be them, whine for this issue.

[cparle87]

No, I'm one of those people who thinks its unfair that some people perform better than others just because of luck. AP doesn't end with concordance, there is crubicle to grind that massively improves your character.

I like to have reachable end goals. I don't like pure lottery.

There have been people performing better than others because of luck at videos games for as long as there have been video games. Sounds to me like you either hate video games, hate the thought of anyone else having something you don't, or both.

[Dracodraco]

Valor Points required 2-3 weeks of farming and after that you were done, only doing couple 5 mans if you got a new item. Crucible is forcibly delayed through AK, requires a lot of farming to actually benefit from said raid nerfs *and* has RNG on top of it. It combines the worst qualities of both systems to reach a new low.

That's blatantly not true. VP required you to cap for 2-4 months depending on when we're talking. You needed 250 VP per +4 upgrade, for 16 items, with 8 ilvls being possible per nerf. That's 1k VP for every 2 items, or 8 weeks of capping VP. 16 weeks if you returned with a new char right after they brought out the second batch (although iirc they DID let you grind out the points you didn't get previous weeks to catch up - just like SO does atm. There just wasn't any catch up like there is now ).

For what it's worth, with the current rate of ap, a player that -
Does daily emissary.
Checks mission board once or twice daily.
Does a weekly m+10 for cache.
Does a heroic tomb clear.

Will get 75 the same week we get 55 AK - that's totally fine, and honestly if players complain about having to do that little then fuck'em. You can also just zerg-catch up the last week. You never could with VP. I fail to see how that's a bad design. To me it incorporates the best part of the gradual nerf/buff with the best part of VP - you get a boost to power each week, but you gotta work for it. Fall behind? No problem, weekly AK means you aren't nearly as far behind as you would have been without a weekly buff