So how much has attendance collapsed?

[Deleted]

Obviously Legion Legendaries are more grindy, but if you tried to catch up w/ the legendary ring in WoD you had to do all Mythic Dungeons + all LFR's for max amount of valor points.

Dont forget to take off your rose tainted glasses.

which is still lot less then now if you dont have your best ones as first 2 but as later ones.

[Hahyestwo]

The only question is - how long can people be bothered to grind stuff like that? I mean, literally my whole bnet plays Diablo when the new expansion comes out and 2-3 weeks later they all quit again. I personally have lost the feeling of progression in WoW and it's utterly boring. Just got a 955 item with a socket on one of my alts that I barely play - character progression has never before been so disconnected from the effort that has been put in by the same player.

This is exactly how I feel about WoW right now. Ditto for the 2 week Diablo fest as well -- same thing on my bnet. If you were to ask me, I'd say that people should have been tired of this crap a long time ago, but we see legions of Blizz sheep come on here and defend this garbage. And as long as those people are around, Blizz has no incentive to change this model.

[Blayze]

Blizzard have tried to keep everyone doing everything for the entire expansion. It's no surprise people are burned out.

Run out of quests? Fuck you, World Quests.
Outgear something? Fuck you, the reward could always titanforge enough to be an upgrade.
Got a legendary? Fuck you, it's the wrong one. Grind harder, bitch.
Max out a reputation? Fuck you, did you think we'd let you BUY the mounts?
Levelled up your artefact? Fuck you, Concordance.

There's no "I'm done with dungeons; I've got all the gear" any more. There's no "everything's done; now to piss about on alts."
I'm a filthy casual now, but I can see how raiders would be expected--and feel expected--to chase after RNG power increases and ludicrous AP numbers like some kind of Cookie Clicker knockoff.

[david0925]

I'm more concerned about the number of horde versus alliance guilds and how increasingly difficult it is for alliance guilds to recruit good players.

76 of top 100 world guilds are horde, 70 of top 100 us guilds are horde. The numbers smooths out the lower you go but horde is still favored.

I'm not really going to discuss in detail at the reasons behind it but this creates a positive feedback loop of guilds going horde for better player pool> better player pool go horde because more "good" raiding guilds> repeat.

As a whole ToS is really nothing special and chasing after legendaries is the single most annoying thing this expansion. Outside of that though I feel the "grindiness" and "chasing after TF" is a bit exaggerated.

[Riistov]

10 man would help, way easier finding 10 than 20. Know a few guilds with 15-19 reliable ppl but just need a few more

That's where my guild is at. We have 15 extremely reliable people and a revolving door with the other 5.

There should be a surge of people coming back when the new raid drops, but for now its really frustrating.

[Nihilan]

I'm more concerned about the number of horde versus alliance guilds and how increasingly difficult it is for alliance guilds to recruit good players.

76 of top 100 world guilds are horde, 70 of top 100 us guilds are horde. The numbers smooths out the lower you go but horde is still favored.

I'm not really going to discuss in detail at the reasons behind it but this creates a positive feedback loop of guilds going horde for better player pool> better player pool go horde because more "good" raiding guilds> repeat.

As a whole ToS is really nothing special and chasing after legendaries is the single most annoying thing this expansion. Outside of that though I feel the "grindiness" and "chasing after TF" is a bit exaggerated.

For years the bulk of the cutting edge PVE players have resided on PVP servers, which are/were predominately populated by Horde players*. A relic of the pre-EMFH human racial era when horde was undeniably the superior faction for pvp racials.

*With notable exceptions such as Kelthuzad which is alliance dominated.

[Myztikrice]

They've been the superior faction for PvE racials for a long time as well

[Marrilaife]

I'm more concerned about the number of horde versus alliance guilds and how increasingly difficult it is for alliance guilds to recruit good players.

76 of top 100 world guilds are horde, 70 of top 100 us guilds are horde. The numbers smooths out the lower you go but horde is still favored.

I'm not really going to discuss in detail at the reasons behind it but this creates a positive feedback loop of guilds going horde for better player pool> better player pool go horde because more "good" raiding guilds> repeat.

As a whole ToS is really nothing special and chasing after legendaries is the single most annoying thing this expansion. Outside of that though I feel the "grindiness" and "chasing after TF" is a bit exaggerated.

Yep, another notch down the line where horde racials are an advantage. First Orcs with pet damage + blood fury, then Trolls in Throne of Thunder wit bonus to beasts and extremely favourable lineup of racial + herbalism lifeblood + engi glove, now Blood Elves in m+ and Goblins on m KJ. With small exception when Human racial was OP in PVP Alliance racials keep being sub-par, but Blizzard claims they're a non factor and refuses to disable / remove them. And while in pvp they can balance it by dividing the titles, there's nothing to save pve from slowly sliding into world of hordecraft. Even if racials were finally deleted, the imbalance would stay because there would be absolutely no reason for horde to switch back, so the 70/30 split is probably never gonna be reverted.

And the issue is even if you play at the level where racials don't matter, the fact you have smaller choice of guilds and servers does definitely matter. And since people always flock to the more populated side, the future looks very red. Unless Blizzard finally removes faction barrier in pve and allows all races to group together in instanced content (at least on pve servers).