Stop flipping tables about Dev Q&A

[Swalload]

First things first:
This is about the Dev Q&A from 10/05/2017.
I'm not a Ion fanboy.
I don't hate him either.
I don't watch most Q&A's but this one I did.

So as I was listening to Ion answering questions, I was thinking to myself "yeah, sure, makes sense, that's a logical answer" and so on. At the end I thought people would be pleased with what he said.

Then came the big thread with people going bat shit crazy and I was bamboozled.
I started thinking, trying to figure out why people are so mad when I thought it was fine.

It just dawned on me: There is a huge disconnect between Devs and players. Not a disconnect in that "they don't listen to us omg" more of a knowledge problem between 2 sides who don't have the same information.
And it basically comes down to this: Devs know how games are made, the players don't.

inb4 "ur a pleyar 2, bitch, wut do u know, smartass!?!?!?"
I'm a game dev as well (not for Blizzard obviously), I understand why there are some things he doesn't say, I understand the hidden information behind his answers and we deal with similar stuff here. I'm certainly not the only game dev playing WoW or even on this forum and I'm sure they can back up what I say. There are things he knows that justifies a LOT of stuff, which is pretty hard to grasp for people who don't know how games are made.
I won't explain how it all works in a forum post. Ion won't teach people how each aspects of game making in WoW works in the pipeline with every answers he gives (that would takes days), and the players will not stop talking about things they don't know. So where do we stand? Something has to be done otherwise it's gonna be the same shit every time.

Best case scenario: Blizzard makes a "behind the scene" video that explains the important part of how things are made. I would love it but kinda doubt it's gonna happen. So I'll try my best to explain the big picture even though only the people reading this will benefit from it but it's better than nothing.

Keep in mind this is only big picture stuff, I'm in no place to talk about how Blizzard does stuff specifically because I don't work for them and even if I guessed right it would just be wrong (there's a lot of industry secrets yadayada). Here goes:

I'm sure you've seen a lot of people say things like "I could program this better in my basement". This is exactly the kind of ignorant comment that has no value whatsoever even if could be true. Their programmers are not sitting in a circle and one by one are given a little funny task and they can do it as they want. There's a bunch of constrain, a bunch of other tasks, a priority list, other people they depend on, and everything has to be in synch, all that with a pretty tight deadline.
Look at it this way: think of 2 things in the game, one that you think is well made and one that you think is shit. The one thing you love is well made because it took time away from the shitty thing, simple as that. There was no possible way to make both things awesome, maybe to make them both "meh" but that's not good enough, something has to be awesome to hook the players. The shitty thing usually won't be shitty enough to justify people quitting when they actually enjoy the well made thing.
And no, throwing money at it won't make it better. Hiring more people? To do what, finish each other's lines of code? Have 2 designers move stuff around in the same dungeon, which means the guy who submits his changes last will erase what the other guy did. There is a limit to the amount of people you can have on a production. This limit is different for each projects depending on the needs and the available technology. For a game like WoW, and the money it brings in, I'm sure they are not understaffed*.


Now, I completely understand that people can be mad at some stuff in Legion. I am in no way saying Legion is perfect and everything Blizzard does is perfect. The gaming industry is ever changing, we learn new stuff everyday and most of it we learn from mistakes, that's just how it rolls, there's no magic formula to success.
Sure the legendaries are a problem and I've seen Ion more than once say it's not perfect. But what he said today was spot on, the legendary system itself is fine, the problem is if all legendaries were utility, no one would be jealous like they are now. Because that's what people are, jealous, they don't want to be the guy who doesn't have his 2 BiS, they want what the other guy has, the big stuff. If all legendaries were utilities everyone would be like "yo I got this one, now I can sit in fire for that one boss I hate trolololol", his dps wouldn't jump by 150k and everything would be fine.
Ion didn't say "everything about legendaries are perfectly fine", and no, at this point they can't just change everything in a couple months, they can't just hand out free legendaries so people stop crying (also a lot of people would cry about all the time they "wasted" farming legendaries when other people just get them for free).
I agree there are issues in Legion but nothing is as game breaking as people make it seem to be on the forums, it's like a feature just killed their first born, what the fuck.

And then he gets that question. That one stupid motherfucker who says he can't PvP on his alt cuz all his prestige is on his main.
So I understand your main came with lvl 50 prestige right off the bat? And this is what enables you to queue for BGs?
No you stupid fucking cunt, nothing prevents you from doing PvP on your alt with no prestige, why would you even say that?

People are just talking out of their ass way too much, about stuff they just don't know anything about. I wouldn't have a discussion about the food industry, I don't know jack shit about how it works. Sure I can be an ignorant shit too and cry about how steak and chicken is getting more expansive, but what good does that make if I don't know why or how? I eat food! I know how it works! Nope, I don't, just like playing games doesn't mean you know how they're made.


I haven't checked but I'm sure it's possible to find some beginner classes on game design or articles that explain the production of video games. If everyone has a better understanding of that, the community as a whole would be a much better place to be, we could have much more intelligent conversations with the devs, better questions, less complaining, and even help the game get better instead of just being annoying and asking and begging for stuff cuz we're unhappy.

The Q&A today was fine, if you don't think so, it means you're lacking information WHICH IS FINE, we can't know everything about everything. But if you want to discuss this subject, why not inform yourself first? Please take the time you would use to make a raging post to inform yourself instead, you'll gain a lot from it and maybe even enjoy the game more.


Edit: I enjoy all your table flipping ascii

[Kazgrel]

You don't pay my sub!

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

...sorry, had to.

[SirCowdog]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Ion's probable response: The toast is fine being burnt. It adds variety, and we like giving players a reason to check back and keep playing so they have unburnt toast to look forward to one day.

[huth]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Which already means you're looking at it the wrong way. Toast is the equivalent of a Hello World program. Anybody with enough ability to turn on a PC should be able to make it. WoW is not Toast. It's a complicated buffet with thousands of individual dishes that all need to work together.

[Ridesdel]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Ion's probable response: The toast is fine being burnt. It adds variety, and we like giving players a reason to check back and keep playing so they have unburnt toast to look forward to one day.

but you do have to have some sort of culinary training to know that that burnt toast was supposed to go with that dish, and its not JUST burnt toast

[Fabinas]

This thread has no meaning unless you actually give us at least a single example of game development and the correlation of Ion's answers in Q&A. If not, you're just making the authority argument which most of us won't buy.

[FertsBlert]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Ion's probable response: The toast is fine being burnt. It adds variety, and we like giving players a reason to check back and keep playing so they have unburnt toast to look forward to one day.

We've literally got burnt food RNG in game and people hate it.....

[Swalload]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Ion's probable response: The toast is fine being burnt. It adds variety, and we like giving players a reason to check back and keep playing so they have unburnt toast to look forward to one day.

Do you know why your toast is burnt?
Did you let it in the toaster too longer?
Do you have to take it out manually or is it supposed to pop on its own?
Why did it not pop out on its own?
Is the toaster faulty, why is the problem with it?
Is it just stuck?
Something broken inside?
Can I repair it myself or do I need someone else to repair it?
Can this get fixed for my breakfast before I go to work?

Sure you can come to the conclusion that the toast is burnt, but before you put it in the toaster you had no idea it would burn (like devs sometimes don't know something will turn out bad), and it's not as easy as it seems to point out the problem and then get it fixed, not to mention there's a lot of other tasks to do at the same time and not just fix a toaster.

Your comment is one of the best exemple of being uninformed and crying about what you see without understanding the rest, and what you see is just 10% of the problem.

[aggranger]

I'm thinking I am hungry for some toast....brb.

[Otimus]

If devs know how to make games, and the players don't, I'd argue that in some ways, the players know how to play games (or, rather, how the game is played), and the devs don't.

[Puri]

Do you know why your toast is burnt?
Did you let it in the toaster too longer?
Do you have to take it out manually or is it supposed to pop on its own?
Why did it not pop out on its own?
Is the toaster faulty, why is the problem with it?
Is it just stuck?
Something broken inside?
Can I repair it myself or do I need someone else to repair it?
Can this get fixed for my breakfast before I go to work?

Sure you can come to the conclusion that the toast is burnt, but before you put it in the toaster you had no idea it would burn (like devs sometimes don't know something will turn out bad), and it's not as easy as it seems to point out the problem and then get it fixed, not to mention there's a lot of other tasks to do at the same time and not just fix a toaster.

Your comment is one of the best exemple of being uninformed and crying about what you see without understanding the rest, and what you see is just 10% of the problem.

No, the problem is "The toast is burnt", and the dev said: "We think it's great that the toast is burnt". And that's the problem.

[RobertoCarlos]

You don't have to be a master chef to know when the toast is burnt. :/

Ion's probable response: The toast is fine being burnt. It adds variety, and we like giving players a reason to check back and keep playing so they have unburnt toast to look forward to one day.

Are you Nomi.

You made me wait far long for those recipes. Bad panda

[callipygoustp]

It is absolutely ridiculous that players are passionate about the games they play.

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No, the problem is "The toast is burnt", and the dev said: "We think it's great that the toast is burnt". And that's the problem.

Less is more, right? Right? Riiiigght.....

[Magnagarde]

There will always be people complaining about something. Fact is that the vast majority of the playerbase is satisfied with what Legion delivered and is about to deliver.

[Queen of Hamsters]

It's literally no different than from any other expansion.

Some players belonging to the vocal minority that frequents forums and keep extra tabs on the game flip tables over shit they don't like. It ain't gonna change anytime soon.

[Swalload]

This thread has no meaning unless you actually give us at least a single example of game development and the correlation of Ion's answers in Q&A. If not, you're just making the authority argument which most of us won't buy.

I don't have to do that, and you have the option to learn or stay wrong. You can spend your entire life refusing the teaching of every single person you meet, or you can learn from it and grow as a person. I'm not even trying to push an opinion or a belief on people, I'm simply saying there's a big part that is missing and it's possible to inform yourself about it by reading well made articles and stuff on the internet.

To save your the trouble of searching, here are some quick ones that can give you a decent idea:
http://gamedevelopertips.com/game-development-pipeline/
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2006/03/1...pletion?page=2
And this site has a lot of cool stuff about game making as well:
https://www.gamasutra.com/

These will explain a lot more than I can in a forum post, and it comes down to the same, instead of me making a giant post, you go read a giant website, you won't get a 2 liner for this subject, it's too complicated.

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No, the problem is "The toast is burnt", and the dev said: "We think it's great that the toast is burnt". And that's the problem.

He never said that. He said that the legendary system is fine if all legendaries were utility. Which is true. People get bad legendaries and are jealous of their neighbor who gets his BiS first. If all legendaries are utilities, instead of performance, they would all be equally fun to get, making the system just fine.
In toast metaphore: Your toast is burnt but the guy next to you has a perfect toast, you want his toast.

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There will always be people complaining about something. Fact is that the vast majority of the playerbase is satisfied with what Legion delivered and is about to deliver.

Yes sure, doesn't mean it's not worth trying to make the community a slightly better place.

[arcaneshot]

This thread has no meaning unless you actually give us at least a single example of game development and the correlation of Ion's answers in Q&A. If not, you're just making the authority argument which most of us won't buy.

You didn't even read the post and it made perfect sense. It's exactly why the player base and the devs have a disconnet-- it's because players aren't flippin' listening to what they're saying and are instead trying to spin everything to their own narrative, just like what you did.

[rubenmsalles]

well ion says that the balance is good and is what they are aiming for.
that's enought to know what are theirs goals: a non-balanced game when favorite classes are competitive without legs and the classes than must have it to get a spot on anything

[Swalload]

It's literally no different than from any other expansion.

Some players belonging to the vocal minority that frequents forums and keep extra tabs on the game flip tables over shit they don't like. It ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Yes sure, doesn't mean it's not worth trying to make the community a slightly better place.

[Fabinas]

You didn't even read the post and it made perfect sense. It's exactly why the player base and the devs have a disconnet-- it's because players aren't flippin' listening to what they're saying and are instead trying to spin everything to their own narrative, just like what you did.

You assume too much.

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There will always be people complaining about something. Fact is that the vast majority of the playerbase is satisfied with what Legion delivered and is about to deliver.

Thanks for the laugh. Best new one-line joke around.