"The balance in Tomb is pretty good right now"

[Deleted]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

[GreenJesus]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

It is just the mechanics of one fight. You can't just buff a class because a single fight in a single difficulty isn't doing as well as others.

[Lahis]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

They need to analyze Simcraft and public logs because that is what the players see. Their internal data could be 100% balanced, but that doesn't mean the community wouldn't cry about imbalance when the data WE have access to shows disparity.

[Shelly]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

Blizz balance =/= Player perception of balance.

Mythic balance =/= game balance.

You should be looking at heroic parses.

Also remember that Blizz aims for a general delta but are fine with a lot of outliers towards the top and bottom.

[Choloz]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

of those 150 guilds, not all of them are reclearing. i know of quite a few that clear through avatar and stop. the fight is incredibly unforgiving, and with roster turnover being such a huge issue this xpac it's just not worth the 50+ wipes to teach 3-4 people the fight. that being said, class representation on probably the hardest fight we've ever seen isn't a significant argument against class balance. this isn't an issue that can be tuned with a numbers change, which is what they were referring to. ret paladins need some core class changes in order to see more roster slots at that level of raiding... which isn't something that's going to happen in a balance update.

[Nevcairiel]

As others have pointed out, a single fight on mythic (and the hardest at that) is hardly a good indicator of anything. Mythic guilds are notorious for class stacking and all sorts of shenanigans. Every miniscule advantage is taken into account there. Balance could be as perfect as you want, hard M bosses would still see unbalanced participation for all sorts of random reasons.

[Evilmoo]

they don't need to analyze anything, they need to PLAY the class. Not a all-legendary geared 1200ilvl test characters, but ordinary 920ish mix forged characters with 1 bis and 1 trash legendaries.
That balance will be on spot very quickly.

[Deleted]

Heroic parses and non-rated pvp are not an indicator of class balance.(unless character progression stops there. maybe we should start looking at lfr parses and world pvp and duels).
We playing an mmorpg and not a single player rpg where we try to push through an ai challenge and the only issue is how much time and effort we are willing to dedicate (like chromie scenario and mage tower, where although some classes got it harder they all managed to complete it). It is a team play and class balance is a cornerstone since each player is about bringing something to the team not holding them back or lacking in some aspect solely because of our participation.
It's 2+ months after the KJ m WF kill and several boss nerfs and player power ups have occured since then. At the moment its not a matter of over the roof hardcore raiding and team minmaxing. Its only about a stable raiding roster and steady progress through the tier. Every spec should have an equal opportunity by now. And imagine what : one of the most popular specs/classes in game atm it's not well represented both in pve and pvp aspects.
Game is not balanced atm and paladins are totally messed up. And when it comes to specs/classes ToS is one prime example of bring the class and not the player example.
Now if the head believes that the class balance is pretty good and the community is fine with this then gg boyz next expac we get the same pile of shit.

[Kobor]

Those sentences from BLizz only telling me that they totally ignoring class balance.
They saying everything is fine when there is like 20% or more difference between specs.

I am so tired of that I work the most in my guild to gear up and farm APs only to do the same dps with like 5-10 item level lower guildmates.

I see retri only at bottom still, even on Mythic raids.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=4

[SFBayGamer]

I will agree with the general sentiment that for raiding and raiding only, ret pally is basically down in the dumpster. For M+ content however, ret pallies do incredibly well and for now, for now M10+/week>Mythic raiding gear by 935>930.

so theres that whole thing.

PS- holy crap when did Enh Shamans become kings of the hill?? Did something happen recently I was totally unaware of?? I guess I need to dust that panda off asap.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Balance in Tomb of Soakgeras is fine
Balance is fine
Balance
[cackles in rouge ]

[Swampmoose]

I see retri only at bottom still, even on Mythic raids.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=4

Being at the bottom does has nothing to do with balance. Whether the difference between the top spec and bottom spec is 1% or 50%, someone will ALWAYS be at the bottom. Balance has to do with that 1% or 50%. The link you gave shows a difference of about 230k between the top and bottom specs. I would call that fairly balanced and have seen exponentially worse in the past. Through minimal personal experience over the last few weeks, I don't think we are too terrible, although my experience is limited to heroic level content so far. I will say some fights I feel pretty strong and others quite useless, so there's definitely issues there. Most I'm ok with. I would certainly like to relive my WotLK days where I was miles ahead of the entire raid, but I can accept being on the lower end as long as the gap isn't astronomical.

The issue that I've noticed since picking up Legion is...where the hell are all the buffs? They started trimming them when I last played, but now there are practically none it seems. When classes bring unique (or shared with few other classes), the difference between the top and bottom can be larger because the bottom is often still needed to support the raid as a whole. The more you strip away, the more they need to close that gap for raids to entertain bringing the bottom few. They have, in a sense, shot themselves in the foot there. It's next to impossible, with all of the variation between classes, raid mechanics, etc. to achieve true balance. At least when classes were needed for buffs and utility, they could use that as an excuse and the larger gap was easier to accept.

[Kobor]

...someone will ALWAYS be at the bottom....

It would be better not our only dps spec, rather some badly designed from a class who can choose other 2 dps spec, we don't have a choice, just retri to play as dps.
On the other hand, would it be hard to closer the gap? No, just Blizz totally neglecting us, that is the truth.

[Deleted]

I will agree with the general sentiment that for raiding and raiding only, ret pally is basically down in the dumpster. For M+ content however, ret pallies do incredibly well and for now, for now M10+/week>Mythic raiding gear by 935>930.

so theres that whole thing.

PS- holy crap when did Enh Shamans become kings of the hill?? Did something happen recently I was totally unaware of?? I guess I need to dust that panda off asap.

Incredibly well as we seen many rets participating in high keys or the tournament ? Cause as far as i am concerned +15 is casual as long as there is a set group of people doing it.
As for the guyz crying that the dps difference is small, i am not talking about dps output but about number and percentage of ret parses compared to the other classes/specs.
And in case u guyz still living the holy wrath dream : imagine how many rets would raid mythic content if the raid spots were not 20 but 15.
No so far bring the class not the player is the go to for every non casual aspect of the game (mythic raiding, rated pvp, high m+).
There is absolutely no balance at the moment. And although i dont expect them to do major changes for the gameplay or the balance that late in the expansion although there were protests since alpha: i am quite worried when this statement comes from the head of the game a few weeks before the speculated announcement of the next expansion and consecutively a few months before the next alpha.
But hey holy wrath was a cool idea anyways. the removal of hammer of wrath an even better one. and the gap closer the coolest thing that has happened for a class ever. maybe we should smoke the same stuff.

[Nariera]

It would be better not our only dps spec, rather some badly designed from a class who can choose other 2 dps spec, we don't have a choice, just retri to play as dps.
On the other hand, would it be hard to closer the gap? No, just Blizz totally neglecting us, that is the truth.

Here's the other problem with other DPS specs. Legendaries and Artifact power progression makes it very hard for people to consider swapping.

[Swampmoose]

It would be better not our only dps spec, rather some badly designed from a class who can choose other 2 dps spec, we don't have a choice, just retri to play as dps.
On the other hand, would it be hard to closer the gap? No, just Blizz totally neglecting us, that is the truth.

Hardly the truth. You think they like listening to the constant complaints from people at the bottom? Absolutely not. They could absolutely make everyone do the exact same damage in the same gear. Problem is trying to make everyone do similar damage while:

1) Trying to keep specs and classes unique
2) Trying to make each spec and class fun to play
3) Trying to make boss encounters unique, fun, and challenging (if everything was Patchwerk, no one would play)
4) Trying to make gear interesting and appealing (legendary effects, trinket effects, tier bonuses, secondary stats, etc)

I say trying because if you understood the how many moving parts there are, you would understand that it's a challenge, and not purely neglect.

As for the guyz crying that the dps difference is small, i am not talking about dps output but about number and percentage of ret parses compared to the other classes/specs.

Lol, the number of parses available has nothing to do with balance either. Maybe people just don't like playing retribution and find other classes to be more entertaining. I find it pretty boring myself although I don't play anything else to be able to make my own comparisons.

[SinR]

"my class is underperforming in (insert content here) Blizzard is ignoring us."

its like screaming at a brick wall. You won't get anywhere.

[tss]

I couldn't but grin about this comment.
I don't really understand how they claim to trust sources like simcraft and logs as much as their internal sources.
A fast view of the logs at the moment speaks the truth : 82 ret paladin parses on mythic kj fights last 2 weeks when more than 150 guilds have killed it...
The same spec that has one of the largest number of parses on first bosses + a notorious history of cheesing and soaking mechanics with their damage reduction and bubbles is underperforming in an instance with a gazillion of soaking going around and climaxing to the last bosses.
But what do we know . Maybe rets are normies these days.

I hope they cut the bs and fix the balance problems.

PS: my "/yell wheelchair coming through" macro when moving around to deal with mechanics is the most popular thing i bring in a raid.

So you're just some clueless memer? What's your mythic progress? Do you think every kill needs a ret pally in it?

[Deleted]

Lol, the number of parses available has nothing to do with balance either. Maybe people just don't like playing retribution and find other classes to be more entertaining. I find it pretty boring myself although I don't play anything else to be able to make my own comparisons.

Ok ret is 4th-5th dps specc in first 2 bosses then declining becomin 13-14 specc in later encounters (in number of parses). And that's 2+ months after raid release. Reckon people are bored playing this specc in later bosses ?

[epLe]

They need to analyze Simcraft and public logs because that is what the players see. Their internal data could be 100% balanced, but that doesn't mean the community wouldn't cry about imbalance when the data WE have access to shows disparity.

Well, Blizzard should not look away from their own perfect data, in favor of just some random fansite that only collects data from who submit to them.
These log collections is tremendously biased when it comes to classes and specs, due to fotm specs (fads) that gets brought for progressing through Mythic raids.