No flying on Argus - broken promise?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

We've been chasing that fucking carrot on a stick for well over a year now. And when we finally catch it, what do they do? They make it useless. Just remove flying all together if this is how you're going to treat us..

It's an option I would entertain. Although I only spend about an hour a week on argus now. No point to just be out there with nothing to gain.

So seems drastic.

[Eurhetemec]

Instead, it hurts casuals with limited time per game session, and people who like play alts, like me.

I'm a bit skeptical of this, because WoW's travel times are pretty short generally. There have been expansions where I felt I spent 90% of my time traveling, 10% of my time playing, when solo doing SP stuff. Cataclysm was very definitely one of them. Late-era WotLK was too.

So my feeling is that designing for flight makes the feeling that you're just traveling, never playing worse, not better. Or at least, THAT kind of design-for-flight did. There are potential designs which don't do that.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe I'm not being clear. I don't think that having flight or not having flight is in and of itself shady. I think the way that Blizzard is mishandling the presentation of their intentions IS.

If I find this a bit hard to take, given how aggressive your language has been towards Blizzard. You haven't equivocated and said they "seem shady", but rather directly claimed it is shady and suggesting it's somehow shameful and so on. Pffft. I can't take that seriously. Blizzard have done hundreds of more shameful and shady things than possibly misrepresent the intentions behind a part of the game (it's hardly the 100th time they've done THAT either...)

I agree it's a genie out of the bottle situation. However, it's one that they rolled with for nearly a decade. And the way they're now trying to put it back in the bottle is piss poor. I'll explain below:

Oh come on. You don't get to complain about "misrepresentation" and "shady" and then represent 7.8 years as 10. Especially as flying itself varied so much during the period in terms of both speed and where you could do it. It only became utterly routine in Cataclysm, when we all had max-speed mounts, 1.5s cast, and the old world became flyable.

This is literally what happened with WoD. But Blizzard at least did the sensible thing and put flying back in the game. Even if people didn't like the method to obtain flying at that point, at least it was there. In fact most people seem to be actually ok with the Pathfinder system as long as they have flight once they do the work for it. It's the restriction in current content without the possibility of use or unlock later that makes Argus so unpalatable.

I'm aware that happened with WoD, but the fact that they backed off it is surely the key takeaway? No?

As for Argus, don't you see how petty it sounds? This is some content that's been in the game for a short period, that a lot of people (including ones who agree with you) are already claiming they "don't need" because they've got everything from it, and where you probably don't spend more than short time per day unless you're doing specialized farming. Yeah it's kinda annoying that it has no flight but...

I don't believe this is a fair statement. Unless you think that all of the skill and ability and experience that Blizzard can apply to the game in the past magically evaporates as soon as flight enters the equation. It's just as likely that they would step up their game and make a BETTER experience. And even if all it did was break even, at least people would then have the flying that they care about. And it would certainly be better than misleading their players about their intentions.

I'm going on the gameplay of expansions that have already happened. Late WotLK, Cata, MoP, I don't feel like the post-flying solo-questing/Daily gameplay in any of those was any good. There's a reason The Timeless Isle is often considered one of the best parts of MoP, and part of that is that you're not flying, so you have to engage with stuff that you'd just lol at from the back of a dragon, or swoop in, deal with, swoop out.

Now Argus is no Timeless Isle, but that's a more complex issue and a separate one.

Part of the problem is that WoW flying mounts are zero-gameplay in 95% of situations. You simply fly in at huge speed, hit your target(s), leave at huge speed. Ground mounts do involve some gameplay, as you can get too many mobs after you, get knocked off, need to navigate around terrain/plan routes on the fly (rather than simply going "as the crow flies" with the biggest gameplay issue being "maybe I have to nose-up to fly over something".

Don't mistake me: I am not saying "ground mounts are better". Nor "fuck flying". I would love to see flying content done so well that it was as good as that. I have literally never seen Blizzard manage it, though. You think they'll rise to the challenge. I call you optimist, sir. Optimist.

There are times I am annoyed by ground mounts, I admit, when it doesn't feel like there's any gameplay - just irritation. I don't love Argus but I don't feel it's on that level - some elements of traveling around the Broken Isles pre-flight though? Sure, just irritating (esp. going to dungeons for Mythic pre-flight).

Then they should have said MUCH earlier that it was their intent to release more content in the expansion, but without flight. There is no excuse to justify waiting until after 8 months of forcing players to grind away at Pathfinder only to restrict flight shortly after, with no warning. The fact that they even tried to justify it by citing the "tradition" of no-flying content in previous expansions is laughable.

Given the positioning of the content, which is very similar to a less-interesting version of Timeless Isle I'm have a hard time seeing that as "laughable". I mean? Mockable, sure? But it's not an unreasonable comparison, just not a terribly favourable one.

I think that it probably will have a Pathfinder-like unlock. The real question is how willing players will be to deal with it if they know that their progress towards flying might become irrelevant in any future patch, with no warning or indication despite whatever Blizzard might have to say their plan is. Blizzard could say that they intend for flight to be used the entire expansion and I wouldn't be able to trust it, at this point.

Sure, but you couldn't trust that in any expansion. How long before Timeless Isle was released did they mention that it would be in and no-flying?

[SirCowdog]

Instead of trying to understand why it doesn't make sense to not instantly enable flying, try to understand why it does make sense to not instantly enable flying.

We tried that for 8 months, and things were actually going ok...and then Blizzard used it to pull the rug out and screw us with No-flying again. So...yeah...hmm...where does that leave us?

If I find this a bit hard to take, given how aggressive your language has been towards Blizzard. You haven't equivocated and said they "seem shady", but rather directly claimed it is shady and suggesting it's somehow shameful and so on. Pffft. I can't take that seriously. Blizzard have done hundreds of more shameful and shady things than possibly misrepresent the intentions behind a part of the game (it's hardly the 100th time they've done THAT either...)

Then maybe you haven't been reading my post history carefully. Yes, absolutely I think that Blizzard should put flying in the game, and I think there are better ways to unlock flight than pathfinder, as well as many ways to improve flying itself.

But I've also said MANY times that if they want to do the game with no flying that I'd respect them more if they just up and did it. I wouldn't play that game, because I think flying is too much a part of the WoW experience. But I would respect them having the confidence in their design to do it. But that's not what their doing. They're constantly changing their stated stance on the subject, putting flight in, taking it out, and changing it from part of the game into a false carrot to stretch hours played.

I don't know how more cut and dry I can make my point: Not having flight in a game isn't shady. There are lots of games without flight. Hell, I've been playing Fallout 4 survival mode for nearly three weeks now! But the way Blizzard is presenting their case for it, and the way that they're implementing it into the game IS shady as fuck.

Oh come on. You don't get to complain about "misrepresentation" and "shady" and then represent 7.8 years as 10.

TBC launched January 15th, 2007. MoP ended Nov 13, 2014, but WoD returned flying in 2015 for another ~12 months before Legion. Legion has had flying available for ~5 months before going back to No-flying again.

That's 7 years, 9 months, and 29 days between the launch of TBC and the end of MoP.
With another 11 months and 29 days between flight being enabled in WoD until the launch of Legion.
Making the total 8 years, 9 months, and 27 days

And you wonder why I type "almost a decade" instead? Come on now..... Even if we disregard WoD entirely, that's still almost 8 years, which I'll use from now on, just to avoid any further irrelevant argument on the subject.

I'm aware that happened with WoD, but the fact that they backed off it is surely the key takeaway? No?

As for Argus, don't you see how petty it sounds? This is some content that's been in the game for a short period, that a lot of people (including ones who agree with you) are already claiming they "don't need" because they've got everything from it, and where you probably don't spend more than short time per day unless you're doing specialized farming. Yeah it's kinda annoying that it has no flight but...

You're rationalizing that it's ok because the zones are small or insignificant somehow? That's not the point at all. The point is that Blizzard can and will change their stated stance on any given topic at any time for no reason as long as it serves their purposes. They got players to chase Pathfinder by ensuring players that it would be the way things were being handled. Then once they got mileage out of it they went straight back to doing things however they wanted. That's bullshit. How can we trust anything Blizzard says about any future plans at this point?

I'm going on the gameplay of expansions that have already happened. Late WotLK, Cata, MoP, I don't feel like the post-flying solo-questing/Daily gameplay in any of those was any good. There's a reason The Timeless Isle is often considered one of the best parts of MoP, and part of that is that you're not flying, so you have to engage with stuff that you'd just lol at from the back of a dragon, or swoop in, deal with, swoop out.

Now Argus is no Timeless Isle, but that's a more complex issue and a separate one.

Timeless Isle was popular because the retarded free loot that was obtainable there by a simple click on a loot box. There was also PVP loot from the weekly boss, and Ordos drops that were basically loot pinatas. Not to mention one of the coolest flying mounts (Thundering Onyx Cloud Serpant). And that doesn't even go into the hardcore trolling that went on there because of the PVP rules.

I doubt that people enjoyed the grounded slog quite as much as they did getting so much god damn loot every time they sneezed.

Part of the problem is that WoW flying mounts are zero-gameplay in 95% of situations. You simply fly in at huge speed, hit your target(s), leave at huge speed. Ground mounts do involve some gameplay, as you can get too many mobs after you, get knocked off, need to navigate around terrain/plan routes on the fly (rather than simply going "as the crow flies" with the biggest gameplay issue being "maybe I have to nose-up to fly over something".

Don't mistake me: I am not saying "ground mounts are better". Nor "fuck flying". I would love to see flying content done so well that it was as good as that. I have literally never seen Blizzard manage it, though. You think they'll rise to the challenge. I call you optimist, sir. Optimist.

So Stormpeaks and Icecrown don't count? Deepholme? Vashj'ir? Are you really going to tell me that none of those zones worked well? Compared to the trainwreck design of something like Highmountain, I know which one I'd choose.

Sure, but you couldn't trust that in any expansion. How long before Timeless Isle was released did they mention that it would be in and no-flying?

The main difference here is that there was no statement of intent from Blizzard about flying would be handled going forward, and players had flying from the launch patch. Meanwhile in Legion players were forced to wait 8 months(and largely kept in the dark about what exactly would be required to complete it), slog through a completely disassociated laundry list of tasks, then had flying for a mere 5 months before it was again restricted in cutting edge content.

If you don't see the difference in context here, then I don't know what else to say to you.

[Martymark]

Argus is just a floating rock with a pretty skybox behind it. It would break the immersion if you could fly there like you could in BC which was a floating rock with a skybox behind it.

Besides, the Legion would probably try to shoot you down. It would be really hard to program something like that...cough cough Ogri'la cough cough...

[Klingers]

All Blizzard's BS timegating, RNG and timegating of flight and artifact grinding this expansion did was make me wait until 6.3 was out to come back to the game and them to lose a year's worth of subs. I get to breeze through all the content and unlock pathfinder on one character before I even touch an alt. Hell to walking any longer than I need to.

On the subject of Argus, Blizzard should just make a choice. Either make your endgame zones flyable or make them flat. Quel'Danas, Timeless Isle and Isle of Thunder weren't an issue because they weren't the single location players were spending 100% of their time at endgame and even if they were they were smaller, tightly focused experiences where player mobility wasn't hurt as much by being grounded.

I still think Icecrown was the best way to do an endgame zone. It was there on launch, had leveling quest content, was flyable at max level, and had big ominous locked doors waiting to fly open one day in a raid patch and cause players a world of hurt. They also progressively updated it throughout the expansion. This whole idea of needing to lock a zone until the last patch is regressive thinking only brought about because the WoD-era devs were too useless to get Tanaan finished by launch.

Argus is awesome, it definitely made story sense in context to only discover it in patch 6.3 but I don't want to see this model continue moving forward forever. I want to know where I'm aiming for story-wise from the start and I want to be able to fly there. Call me old-fashioned.

[Dhrizzle]

Then maybe you haven't been reading my post history carefully. Yes, absolutely I think that Blizzard should put flying in the game, and I think there are better ways to unlock flight than pathfinder, as well as many ways to improve flying itself.

But I've also said MANY times that if they want to do the game with no flying that I'd respect them more if they just up and did it. I wouldn't play that game, because I think flying is too much a part of the WoW experience. But I would respect them having the confidence in their design to do it. But that's not what their doing. They're constantly changing their stated stance on the subject, putting flight in, taking it out, and changing it from part of the game into a false carrot to stretch hours played.

It's almost as if Blizz are trying to make a game that a lot of players will enjoy instead of earning the respect of random forum guy.

I don't know how more cut and dry I can make my point: Not having flight in a game isn't shady. There are lots of games without flight. Hell, I've been playing Fallout 4 survival mode for nearly three weeks now! But the way Blizzard is presenting their case for it, and the way that they're implementing it into the game IS shady as fuck.

It's not shady, you just want to think it is because you're sad about the game not matching your personal desires.

TBC launched January 15th, 2007. MoP ended Nov 13, 2014, but WoD returned flying in 2015 for another ~12 months before Legion. Legion has had flying available for ~5 months before going back to No-flying again.

That's 7 years, 9 months, and 29 days between the launch of TBC and the end of MoP.
With another 11 months and 29 days between flight being enabled in WoD until the launch of Legion.
Making the total 8 years, 9 months, and 27 days

And you wonder why I type "almost a decade" instead? Come on now..... Even if we disregard WoD entirely, that's still almost 8 years, which I'll use from now on, just to avoid any further irrelevant argument on the subject.

If you want to stay consistent you should consider the other times no-fly islands "took flight away" like Argus.

Isle of Quel'danas "took flight away" 7 months and 19 days before WotLK.
Firelands "took flight away" 1 year, 2 months and 27 days before MoP.
Isle of Thunder "took flight away" 1 year, 8 months and 8 days before WoD.
Total - 2 years, 9 months and 23 days.

Knocking your total down to 6 years and 4 days, barely half of WoW's lifespan.

You're rationalizing that it's ok because the zones are small or insignificant somehow? That's not the point at all. The point is that Blizzard can and will change their stated stance on any given topic at any time for no reason as long as it serves their purposes. They got players to chase Pathfinder by ensuring players that it would be the way things were being handled. Then once they got mileage out of it they went straight back to doing things however they wanted. That's bullshit.

Is flight the first time you've tried following changes to WoW and the dev's explanations? The way they design the game changes all the time, sometimes it's a new way of trying to implement an old philosophy, sometimes it's a brand new philosophy that contradicts their earlier goals. Pretty much everything will get a mixed reaction with some loving and others hating it, and there's almost always someone who invents conspiracy theories behind the moves, refusing to believe that different people like different things and accusing Blizz of an organised campaign of deception instead of accepting that Blizz make money by simply making a game people want to play and offering things people want to pay for.

How can we trust anything Blizzard says about any future plans at this point?

That depends what you mean by trust.
Can we trust Blizz to implement all their design choices in a way that best fits our preference? No, the game is developed for a diverse audience with evolving desires of potentially 100m+ even if we assume that no new players start in the future. Sometimes you get lucky and a part of the game is perfect for you at that particular time, but it's highly unlikely that you'll be perfectly served by every system of every iteration.

Can we trust Blizz to stick to every design choice they discuss and implement it in the game? Again no, as a developer Blizzard have never been shy about scrapping an idea or changing it from the original form. Sometimes they even do it with entire games - Starcraft Ghost got quite far into development before they threw it in the junk-pile, and Overwatch was originally envisioned as some sort of MMO-FPS (presumably something like Destiny or the Division) before they made it into a small-scale, PvP arena hero-shooter. With WoW it's usually because they encounter technical limitations that make the feature not worth the cost in developer resources, or the system they get up and running doesn't feel fun or like an interesting part of the game. When Ghostcrawler was the main face of Blizzard he spent a lot of his time adding caveats to any statement to really hammer home the fact that nothing they discuss is set in stone where it comes to future development.

So can we trust Blizz to accurately convey their ideas and plans with the understanding that everything is subject to change? Sadly not as they have a rather spotty history of people either releasing contradictory statements around the same time or failing to give a concise description of the matter which later requires a longer explanation.

So really all we have to ask is can we trust Blizz's motives behind communicating? There is most likely an understanding at Blizzard that this sort of communication is better for the business, and having this sort of relationship with customers can eventually lead to more money. Some people take it further than this though, believing that posts on development are some sort of psychological warfare, a series of well planned feints and misdirections designed to confuse and mislead players into spending money on a game they don't actually enjoy. Personally I think that's conspiracy-level nonsense, for all the vagueries of game development and hiccups in communication I still think that when Blizz discuss some aspect of their game development process it's because they want the players to have some insight into some aspect of their game development process.

So Stormpeaks and Icecrown don't count? Deepholme? Vashj'ir? Are you really going to tell me that none of those zones worked well? Compared to the trainwreck design of something like Highmountain, I know which one I'd choose.

Stormpeaks, Icecrown and Deepholme didn't really use flight in gameplay beyond flying in, hitting target and flying out. Vah'jir had the "flying" combat but it's hardly an example of good flying combat.

If you consider exploration gameplay then I'd say Stormpeaks and Vash'jir did it well (despite Vash'jir having such a terrible quest chain,) Deepholme could have been equally good or better with a little extra effort to cater to non-flying mounts, whilst Icecrown, Hyjal, Uldum and Twilight Highlands all would have definitely been better tackled from the ground if Blizz had put in the extra work.

The main difference here is that there was no statement of intent from Blizzard about flying would be handled going forward, and players had flying from the launch patch. Meanwhile in Legion players were forced to wait 8 months(and largely kept in the dark about what exactly would be required to complete it), slog through a completely disassociated laundry list of tasks, then had flying for a mere 5 months before it was again restricted in cutting edge content.

If you don't see the difference in context here, then I don't know what else to say to you.

The biggest difference I see is Blizz have spent the past few years explaining why they think the game plays better without flying mounts. Put in that context, along with their persistent habit of never allowing flight on patch-areas separate from an expansion's main continent, it seems really silly to think that Argus would be a zone where you can fly.

- - - Updated - - -

Argus is just a floating rock with a pretty skybox behind it. It would break the immersion if you could fly there like you could in BC which was a floating rock with a skybox behind it.

The skybox in Outland just represents the sky around Outland, the skybox for Argus represents other parts of the planet as it is being ripped apart, an illusion that can be shattered if we view it from the wrong angle.

Besides, the Legion would probably try to shoot you down. It would be really hard to program something like that...cough cough Ogri'la cough cough...

Ogri'la cannons were a joke with epic flying and easily avoided at +60% speed if you performed vertical zig-zags, something to do with WoW's engine really seeing the world in 2D.

[cparle87]

Well Argus is NOT part of the Broken Isles, so no, it's not "obvious". Maybe if it was called "Legion Pathfinder".
You might wanna look up what the word "obvious" means.

I was being sarcastic in replying to Sircowdog, who thinks Blizz is evil and lying to us for not letting us fly in Argus once we have that achievement. I was pointing out that simply assuming that it'll include Argus when it's called Broken Isles Pathfinder is disingenuous. I probably should've added the /s.

[arcaneshot]

The only lie floating around in this thread comes from the Topic Creator.

No one was expecting to fly on Argus.

[xanzul]

It is absurd these threads are allowed to continue when Blizzard has been rather explicit with how they are going to handle flying going forward and how they have been handling flying in patch content ie no flying.

Even the expansion that introduced flying had patch content with no flying. Seriously just shut the fuck up already.

- - - Updated - - -

We tried that for 8 months, and things were actually going ok...and then Blizzard used it to pull the rug out and screw us with No-flying again. So...yeah...hmm...where does that leave us?



Then maybe you haven't been reading my post history carefully. Yes, absolutely I think that Blizzard should put flying in the game, and I think there are better ways to unlock flight than pathfinder, as well as many ways to improve flying itself.

But I've also said MANY times that if they want to do the game with no flying that I'd respect them more if they just up and did it. I wouldn't play that game, because I think flying is too much a part of the WoW experience. But I would respect them having the confidence in their design to do it. But that's not what their doing. They're constantly changing their stated stance on the subject, putting flight in, taking it out, and changing it from part of the game into a false carrot to stretch hours played.

I don't know how more cut and dry I can make my point: Not having flight in a game isn't shady. There are lots of games without flight. Hell, I've been playing Fallout 4 survival mode for nearly three weeks now! But the way Blizzard is presenting their case for it, and the way that they're implementing it into the game IS shady as fuck.






TBC launched January 15th, 2007. MoP ended Nov 13, 2014, but WoD returned flying in 2015 for another ~12 months before Legion. Legion has had flying available for ~5 months before going back to No-flying again.

That's 7 years, 9 months, and 29 days between the launch of TBC and the end of MoP.
With another 11 months and 29 days between flight being enabled in WoD until the launch of Legion.
Making the total 8 years, 9 months, and 27 days

And you wonder why I type "almost a decade" instead? Come on now..... Even if we disregard WoD entirely, that's still almost 8 years, which I'll use from now on, just to avoid any further irrelevant argument on the subject.





You're rationalizing that it's ok because the zones are small or insignificant somehow? That's not the point at all. The point is that Blizzard can and will change their stated stance on any given topic at any time for no reason as long as it serves their purposes. They got players to chase Pathfinder by ensuring players that it would be the way things were being handled. Then once they got mileage out of it they went straight back to doing things however they wanted. That's bullshit. How can we trust anything Blizzard says about any future plans at this point?




Timeless Isle was popular because the retarded free loot that was obtainable there by a simple click on a loot box. There was also PVP loot from the weekly boss, and Ordos drops that were basically loot pinatas. Not to mention one of the coolest flying mounts (Thundering Onyx Cloud Serpant). And that doesn't even go into the hardcore trolling that went on there because of the PVP rules.

I doubt that people enjoyed the grounded slog quite as much as they did getting so much god damn loot every time they sneezed.




So Stormpeaks and Icecrown don't count? Deepholme? Vashj'ir? Are you really going to tell me that none of those zones worked well? Compared to the trainwreck design of something like Highmountain, I know which one I'd choose.





The main difference here is that there was no statement of intent from Blizzard about flying would be handled going forward, and players had flying from the launch patch. Meanwhile in Legion players were forced to wait 8 months(and largely kept in the dark about what exactly would be required to complete it), slog through a completely disassociated laundry list of tasks, then had flying for a mere 5 months before it was again restricted in cutting edge content.

If you don't see the difference in context here, then I don't know what else to say to you.

You are straight up delusional. Don't you get tired of posting the same bullshit in every single fucking flying thread? Lying and distortions didn't get unrestricted flight back in Wod or most of Legion and it won't get it back now. Give it up already. It's over. Until such a time that Blizzard devs change their stance these kinds of posts aren't going to accomplish a fucking thing. And no nothing you or any other flybaby has posted in the past THREE FUCKING YEARS is remotely new or unique and certainly isn't going to change anything for the devs.

[Echocho]

You are straight up delusional. Don't you get tired of posting the same bullshit in every single fucking flying thread? Lying and distortions didn't get unrestricted flight back in Wod or most of Legion and it won't get it back now. Give it up already. It's over. Until such a time that Blizzard devs change their stance these kinds of posts aren't going to accomplish a fucking thing. And no nothing you or any other flybaby has posted in the past THREE FUCKING YEARS is remotely new or unique and certainly isn't going to change anything for the devs.

Whoa, calm down there buddy. No need to throw a tantrum. It's just someone not liking something you like, it's not the end of the world.

[SirCowdog]

I was being sarcastic in replying to Sircowdog, who thinks Blizz is evil and lying to us for not letting us fly in Argus once we have that achievement. I was pointing out that simply assuming that it'll include Argus when it's called Broken Isles Pathfinder is disingenuous. I probably should've added the /s.

You completely ignored the glaring flaw in your "logic" where Argus wasn't introduced until after Broken Isles Pathfinder was done.

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It is absurd these threads are allowed to continue when Blizzard has been rather explicit with how they are going to handle flying going forward and how they have been handling flying in patch content ie no flying.

Even the expansion that introduced flying had patch content with no flying. Seriously just shut the fuck up already.

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You are straight up delusional. Don't you get tired of posting the same bullshit in every single fucking flying thread?

The irony of this is staggering. If you don't like what I'm saying use the ignore function. If you don't like discussion or argument about flying, then stay out of those threads.

Otherwise make an actual case for your point of view instead of just being angry and telling people to shut up because you don't like what they're saying.

[cparle87]

You completely ignored the glaring flaw in your "logic" where Argus wasn't introduced until after Broken Isles Pathfinder was done.

No, I'm completely aware of it. Broken Isles Pathfinder doesn't let you fly in Argus because, here it comes, it's only meant to let you fly in the Broken Isles. It's in the name. If Blizz wanted to make an Argus Pathfinder they would've. But acting all offended because you assumed Broken Isles Pathfinder would let you fly in Argus. It would be like going to your pantry for something to clean your oven, finding rug cleaner, using it, and being mad that it's not making your oven clean when that's not and is never what it was meant to be.

[Dialout]

You realize that you're basically defending the right of devs to effectively mislead player and misrepresent their intentions? Why? Because you like ground content? I wonder if people would be so ready to defend Blizzard's actions if it was something they liked instead of flying.

Edit: btw, really? People who want flying are people who want vanilla? Do you even realize how little sense that makes? Fucking trolls. Jesus....

Yeah you took that way out of context and I'm pretty sure you should reassess your definition of a troll.

Also, do you need a hug? Really though. It's okay if you do.

[xanzul]

You completely ignored the glaring flaw in your "logic" where Argus wasn't introduced until after Broken Isles Pathfinder was done.

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The irony of this is staggering. If you don't like what I'm saying use the ignore function. If you don't like discussion or argument about flying, then stay out of those threads.

Otherwise make an actual case for your point of view instead of just being angry and telling people to shut up because you don't like what they're saying.

Hard to stay out of flying threads when you people keep making them and the threads not about flying are always made to be about flying somehow. I'm allowed my point of view just as much as you are but at least there is integrity behind what I say.

[Maudib]

If you want to stay consistent you should consider the other times no-fly islands "took flight away" like Argus.

Isle of Quel'danas "took flight away" 7 months and 19 days before WotLK.
Firelands "took flight away" 1 year, 2 months and 27 days before MoP.
Isle of Thunder "took flight away" 1 year, 8 months and 8 days before WoD.
Total - 2 years, 9 months and 23 days.

Funny you bring this up... Isle was not a big deal because it was really more of an entrance to two instances. But Firelands and IoT saw me unsub for long periods of time. As did Tanaan Jungle... and now Argus.

Blizzard simply cannot produce content like they once did. I return each expansion with hopes of some return to the quality gameplay that was BC/Wrath... and usually get a glimpse of it... only to find lazy, uninspired mechanics added to game to "stretch" repetitive, uninteresting content.

Flying for me has been a huge attraction... I love it... and the game used to be "balanced" with travel time in mind. Not anymore. Such a shame, but all good things come to an end. I just wish we didn't have to watch it die such a pathetic, uninspired death.

[SirCowdog]

Broken Isles Pathfinder doesn't let you fly in Argus because, here it comes, it's only meant to let you fly in the Broken Isles. It's in the name.

Which would have actually made sense and been a fair point if Blizzard had made that intention perfectly clear. But they didn't. They waited until people had 8 months of time and effort invested in the idea of pathfinder to drop that piece of information. They lead people to believe that once all the hoops of Pathfinder were jumped through, we'd be done with it, and having flying for use in the rest of the expansion. That was the entire point of the "Do ground first, get to fly later" compromise that so many ground-only people defended with such fervor in the past. How is anything about Argus in line with that "compromise"?

But acting all offended because you assumed Broken Isles Pathfinder would let you fly in Argus.

First, I'm not offended. I'm simply pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies with Blizzard's handling of the entire issue. Second, I didn't assume Pathfinder would let me fly on Argus because I didn't know Argus would even exist when Pathfinder was being promoted and pushed by Blizzard as "the way flying would be handled going forward". Third, the only mistake I made was in believing that Blizzard would stick to their stated plan and intentions. I'm just glad I unsubbed back in 7.1 when it became clear that they were stretching Pathfinder as far as possible before pulling the rug out from under people's feet. I feel sorry for the people who invested time and effort to complete it.

It would be like going to your pantry for something to clean your oven, finding rug cleaner, using it, and being mad that it's not making your oven clean when that's not and is never what it was meant to be.

It's more like that neighbor who keeps parking his truck in your driveway. You talk to him about it and he agrees to not park his truck in your driveway anymore as long as you turn your loud music down after 10pm, keep the street clear of your own cars so he has a place to park, and keep you dog from pooping his yard. 8 months go by and you hold up your side of the agreement and everything seems fine. The neighbor says a few times that he's pretty happy with the arrangement, and thinks it should be the way to do things going forward.

Then one day you come home from work to find a car in your driveway. It's your neighbor, and he says "Yeah, I only said I wouldn't park my TRUCK in your driveway. This is my car."

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's effectively what Blizzard is doing. And you seem to think it's all perfectly ok for some reason.

Yeah you took that way out of context and I'm pretty sure you should reassess your definition of a troll.

You literally suggested that people who wanted flight were probably the same people who wanted vanilla, which makes absolute no sense when you stop to consider that you couldn't fly in vanilla. Why would I possibly think you were trolling? How am I supposed to take your points seriously when you open with something like that?

Hard to stay out of flying threads when you people keep making them and the threads not about flying are always made to be about flying somehow. I'm allowed my point of view just as much as you are.

No, it's really not. Just don't click the flying threads. And if flying comes up in another thread, just don't respond, or put people on ignore.

but at least there is integrity behind what I say.

Yes...all that integrity where you tell people to "shut the fuck up" and call them delusional. How did I miss that?

[Kuja]

For some reason I've always lost interest when they suddenly clip my wings. First month or two is fun, but then I always end up stopping, only to return after flying is allowed again. There's just something nice in that freedom once they have given the taste of it.

So no flying at all ever is so shit. I'd even be happy if it was enabled only a week before next expansion.

[cparle87]

Which would have actually made sense and been a fair point if Blizzard had made that intention perfectly clear. But they didn't. They waited until people had 8 months of time and effort invested in the idea of pathfinder to drop that piece of information. They lead people to believe that once all the hoops of Pathfinder were jumped through, we'd be done with it, and having flying for use in the rest of the expansion. That was the entire point of the "Do ground first, get to fly later" compromise that so many ground-only people defended with such fervor in the past. How is anything about Argus in line with that "compromise"?

They never said we'd be able to fly on Argus. The achievement we earned to be able to fly in Broken Isles only said "enables flying on the Broken Isles." YOU assuming that it would let you fly on Argus and being wrong does not make Blizzard a liar, deceptive, or anything else you've tried to claim. YOU made an assumption. YOU were wrong. And now YOU are crying and whining and saying Blizzard "promised" you something that they never did. Conversation over.

[SirCowdog]

They never said we'd be able to fly on Argus. The achievement we earned to be able to fly in Broken Isles only said "enables flying on the Broken Isles." YOU assuming that it would let you fly on Argus and being wrong does not make Blizzard a liar, deceptive, or anything else you've tried to claim. YOU made an assumption. YOU were wrong. And now YOU are crying and whining and saying Blizzard "promised" you something that they never did. Conversation over.

Oh FFS...it's like talking to a broken record. You just aren't listening.

If there's any assumption that flying would be usable anywhere after Pathfinder was done, it's because that's the message Blizzard was preaching. I can, and have, linked several cases of direct Blizzard quotes about Pathfinder being the way flight would be handled.

Can you even quote or link a single instance of Blizzard saying that it would be otherwise? Even once since WoD Pathfinder went into effect, but before YuGiOh Hazzicostas revealed his Argus trap card?

[Eurhetemec]

So Stormpeaks and Icecrown don't count? Deepholme? Vashj'ir? Are you really going to tell me that none of those zones worked well? Compared to the trainwreck design of something like Highmountain, I know which one I'd choose.

I had a long response for this but a BSOD (of all things! I haven't seen one for like a year!) took it away so briefly:

1) Icecrown great zone well done good use of flying generally. Strong atmosphere, one of the best zones in Wrath.

2) Stormpeaks BLEEEEH not good zone not good use of flying inconsistent atmosphere one of weaker zones in Wrath despite strong lore content.

3) Deepholme - Mediocre zone good concept unfortunate frustrations trying to find caverns though. I have said flying is good fit for cavern-type zones. Verticality done well is a hard challenge in all MMOs.

4) Vash'jr - As illustrated by Vash'jr! 3D combat and 3D movement done poor. Strong concept for zone poor execution of gameplay. Frustrating.

5) Highmountain rather odd to compare to these as it is victim of same problem - poor use of verticality. Flying notably does not vastly improve zone, still frustrating. Feel it supports my concerns rather than your optimism.

Most new zones in Cata and zones in MoP poor use of flying, made things boring imho (MO! not fact MO), felt like 90% flying in a straight line, 10% chopping mobs or clicking things. Personally find even mild annoyance of navigating terrain > flying in a straight line. Personal opinion ofc.

The main difference here is that there was no statement of intent from Blizzard about flying would be handled going forward, and players had flying from the launch patch. Meanwhile in Legion players were forced to wait 8 months(and largely kept in the dark about what exactly would be required to complete it), slog through a completely disassociated laundry list of tasks, then had flying for a mere 5 months before it was again restricted in cutting edge content.

If you don't see the difference in context here, then I don't know what else to say to you.

I see difference definitely, don't see reason for extremeness of reaction. I see good reason for Blizzard to NOT be honest actually - your anger purely because they said one thing and didn't follow it through. Had they shrugged and said nothing would be less anger!

Also "slog through a completely disassociated laundry list of tasks"? Skeptical frown at this. Without intentionally doing a single thing on the Pathfinding achieve list I completed all but one of the things on it. Find it hard to believe anyone who plays even irregularly didn't. Truly casual players are ones who have most difficulty with it - if that is complaint fair enough I do think it could be more friendly to them.