Do you think there is any chance they ever bring 10m raiding back?

[Ebalina]

citation needed

There many more people engaged now in raiding then there was when 10man was a thing.
There plenty of guilds now that actually keep people because people want to raid not just experience it and drop it half way in to the tier as they did with most 10man raiding.
All in all players like to raid now and 20man is the perfect sample size for them due to how many classes we have and how many specs are out there available to them.
The only hard thing for raiding at the moment is the way ToS is designed.

[fiestatastic]

Why the fuck were they trying there to grow?

Why didn't they grow between Blizzcon and WoD (well highmaul) a full 14 months of knowing it was 20 only. Pleanty of time for even the laziest of person to get it done from scratch.

Tons of guilds tried to grow, recruit, and even combined with other 10 man guilds. It doesn't take a social genius to see that it wasn't going to work out for a lot of people. I'm not sure how adept you are socially, but when you double a group size the social dynamics don't remain the same. You're looking at it from a very narrow perspective, the majority of WoW players are not die hard WoW lifers that are invested as heavily as you seem to be.

[God Save The King]

10m exists for Normal/Heroic, and mythic is such a tiny subset of the population it's not really worth discussing that much. People who want to raid mythic will find a home, or carve one out for themselves.

To answer OP's question, I believe there is a chance that 10m raiding returns, but a very tiny chance. I doubt it'd even be strongly considered for the next few expansions.

Flex works quite well for the masses who want to raid, and the few people who do mythic raiding, accept that if they want to compete at the highest level, they need 19 other people.

It gives Blizzard a lot more control over the mythic encounters, along with being able to comfortably make more assumptions on things like composition. I do think after 3~ months, mythic should shift to flex, since all the strong mythic guilds should be completed by then.


Personally, I tried 10 man, and realized that they'd probably do away with the format quickly (I was surprised it survived all of MoP), so I made sure to stick with 25 man guilds, so when the change inevitably came, I wasn't really effected.

[Toby451]

It gives Blizzard a lot more control over the mythic encounters, along with being able to comfortably make more assumptions on things like composition. I do think after 3~ months, mythic should shift to flex, since all the strong mythic guilds should be completed by then.

If your going to flex after 3 months, why not just flex from day one? Why hurt the other 99% of the community for 3 months so the 1% can feel better about doing something first?


Just allow 10-20 Flex from day 1 mythic. If people are that worried about small raids being easier, make realm firsts require 20 players. The 1% can still go on feeling like they are special snowflakes and the rest of us can play the game with our small groups of friends we have been playing with for over 10 years.

[Deleted]

It's never relatively the same, for the majority if its lifespan 10HC raiding was a joke. There's only a handful of encounters that were on par or even more difficult than 25ppl versions of them.

And when it comes to M raiding it's a big problem.

Ascendant Council,, Sinestra, Nefarian, Twin Drakes would like a word with you.

[Deleted]

I really don't give 2 shits about "competiitive raiding" or the challenge of keeping up a roster. I just want to be able to raid the hardest difficulty. If you believe that 10 man shouldn't be a thing because it's easier, nobody gives a shit that it is easier than 20 man, and 20 man is only harder against the roster boss, it's not a fun boss. in Cata and MoP 10 and 25 both had harder and easier encounters.



Seriously, most people just want to raid in smaller groups for a more tight nit group and not having to deal with low attendance, nobody gives a fuck about how 20 is so much more "extreem"...

[fiestatastic]

You can't possibly think ''millions'' of people were ever ready to Mythic raid no matter what format was chosen. WoD tanked because it had fuck all for non-raid content (you know, the shit that most players actually do), not because of Mythic raiding.

And what stop players doing 10 man Heroic runs if they're more casual or want to gear up alts anyway?

I don't have beliefs regarding the subject, numbers are numbers.

The majority of the player base killed some heroic bosses in Cata, yes, millions. Perhaps you are confusing mythic clearing with mythic participation?

The number of players that clear heroic / mythic and get cutting edge has always been low, but prior to WoD the participation was very high. It's pretty simple math and should be obvious to anyone with critical thinking capability at all ... having the majority of raid groups need to exactly double their size would reduce the overall capability to participate by quite a bit (if it were a simple calculation, i.e. not considering emotion, a statistical estimate would assume the reduction in participation to be roughly 400%)

[Kazuchika]

The majority of the player base killed some heroic bosses in Cata, yes, millions. Perhaps you are confusing mythic clearing with mythic participation?

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site.

[fiestatastic]

LMAO, definitely not where I live (USA). You get sued for spilling coffee on someone. Forget what can happen if you even try to lay a finger on a dickhead. If anything, the weak are shielded in modern society.

haha, 100%. This is the world now though, not just USA, and it's far beyond frivolous lawsuits. Humans have successfully circumvented natural selection for quite some time now. The weak are definitely not discarded in evolution, most people currently are incredibly weak physically. Many have poor eyesight, are short, obese, have weak immune systems, or have other undesirable traits. Our technology has created all sorts of crutches to shield the weak, which is great for families and keeping loved ones connected. However the ideas of "only the strong survive" and evolution are long gone, if I were inclined to spend my hours researching (I'm not) I'd hypothesize that the crutches of technology are enabling humans to devolve if anything.

- - - Updated - - -

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site.

I read sentences like yours all the time, that aren't backed up by any sort of thought or anything other than unintelligent opinion. We obviously have differing opinions on what is ridiculous.

[Kazuchika]

I read sentences like yours all the time, that aren't backed up by any sort of thought or anything other than unintelligent opinion. We obviously have differing opinions on what is ridiculous.

"Millions of players killed heroic bosses in cata" okay pal.

Here's some thought for you. There's not a single heroic boss on Wowprogress for the entire expansion with more than 60k kills. Even if you say that's a 25 man in every kill it's not even close but hey stay delusional

[Jastall]

I don't have beliefs regarding the subject, numbers are numbers.

The majority of the player base killed some heroic bosses in Cata, yes, millions. Perhaps you are confusing mythic clearing with mythic participation?

The number of players that clear heroic / mythic and get cutting edge has always been low, but prior to WoD the participation was very high. It's pretty simple math and should be obvious to anyone with critical thinking capability at all ... having the majority of raid groups need to exactly double their size would reduce the overall capability to participate by quite a bit (if it were a simple calculation, i.e. not considering emotion, a statistical estimate would assume the reduction in participation to be roughly 400%)

As someone pointed out, there has never been even close to millions of players killing Heroic bosses, let alone anything close to a majority. Even if we assume that the 60k kills were all 25 mans (and they weren't by a long shot so it's actually far lower) it still adds up to 1.5m players. That's not even close to half of Cata's playerbase at its lowest. And that's for the easiest boss, obviously.

Mythic raiding has always been exclusionary. No 10M maybe dropped participation a bit, but not anywhere near significant and it probably brought more problems than it resolved anyway.

[ls-]

Ascendant Council,, Sinestra, Nefarian, Twin Drakes would like a word with you.

Majority doesn't mean entirety, and handful doesn't mean none, so, I guess, English language would like to have a word w/ you.

-- edit #1

And to all who are still arguing about 10M.

Blizz designers have participation data on their hands, if they see that majority of people raids HC in 10-15ppl groups, they'll defo drop number of people that's require for M to 15, I don't think they'll ever reduce it to 10, however, if data shows that majority of people raids in 15-25ppl groups, then 20M is here to stay.

They've been collecting this info over the course of two expansions (WoD + Legion), so my guess is that if they decide to change anything it'll be announced this November.

Also flex makes fights easier, you just get in w/ the number of people that's ideal for the fight and you're good, so flex M will turn any upcoming raid into EN. Having raids that are perceived as a joke hurts the game that's known for its raiding more than you think.

[Xinder]

I see a lot of arguments in the thread about how small servers don't even have a mythic kill and so their answer is bring back 10 man raiding. Why isn't the answer do another server merge thing like they did back in....cata?(Honestly don't know when they did the last one). Ion has even said on the Fatboss stream during Gamescom that they were looking at doing another one for the smaller servers that have the worst time trying to recruit. That feels like a better and easier option to try first instead of the screaming about bring back 10 man raiding.

[Vidaria]

Bring back 10 man mythic raiding. Please.

[MrLachyG]

no /endthread

[Trend]

20 man only elitists are afraid that their guild will disband because people prefer smaller raids

Good for you that you speak for people. How did you come about that gig? And how does it work? You mail out questionnaires or something?

I always dislike 10 main raiding in and of itself. It always felt more like dungeon+ and less like raiding. I also disliked the lack of flexibility to bring a player who was currently borderline (esp in terms of gear), but displayed a lot of potential.

I also think there is a whole separate element that nobody talks about. No matter what the raid size is, the last 1-3 slots are always the hardest to keep filled. Nobody wants to ride a bench, so there is almost never real depth, so if anyone has issues you end up short. That's true whether it's 10, 20, 25, whatever.

I would not care if they added 10-man back in, but it's not what I would want to do. Esp as we already have a core group much larger than that.

[Nnyco]

i hope so, 10man was always my fav raid size

[Tech614]

Good for you that you speak for people. How did you come about that gig? And how does it work? You mail out questionnaires or something?

I always dislike 10 main raiding in and of itself. It always felt more like dungeon+ and less like raiding. I also disliked the lack of flexibility to bring a player who was currently borderline (esp in terms of gear), but displayed a lot of potential.

I also think there is a whole separate element that nobody talks about. No matter what the raid size is, the last 1-3 slots are always the hardest to keep filled. Nobody wants to ride a bench, so there is almost never real depth, so if anyone has issues you end up short. That's true whether it's 10, 20, 25, whatever.

I would not care if they added 10-man back in, but it's not what I would want to do. Esp as we already have a core group much larger than that.

The problem with not wanting to ride the bench is just a problem with the guild. If you rotate people properly and don't fuck people over, oh we're missing so and so so now you got a spot it's pretty easy to maintain a healthy bench regardless of raid size.

In 10m for example you have your backup tanks and heals be off specs and you rotate dps in and out with a core of 12-13 people. You rotate based on strat and who needs what loot. If someone is ever sitting out 2 bosses in a row you pretty much fucked up and it's no wonder nobody wants to be on your bench. Same thing pretty much with mythic and a core of 25-26.

The only reason you can't maintain a bench is if you show favoritism or are simply bad at recruiting and barely stay at numbers capable of raiding.

[Yhcti]

I do much prefer 10mans. For a start its 10 ppl less to worry about

[Kakera]

Because maintaining 20 is a logistical nightmare.

Perhaps for those with absolutely no leadership or management experience sure. Stay casual my dude.