Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Tradu]

Well if that was the case you could easily dispute it with your own facts and everything.



Do you by chance have a source on that (not saying you are wrong, just that I couldn't find any on google just now) as I'd be interested in seeing it.

As for being hotfixed that shows it was indeed overtuned at the start. No one disputes things like that, but things that have to be hotfixed, especially during World First kills doesn't affect Titanforge as it's a different issue.

Bosses in Legion(post-EN) have all been tuned for higher gear than they drop, because titanforging forces them to. It's not just Avatar. That's one of the problems caused by TF.

[Aggrophobic]

That's barely much higher than. If they were in full 940 gear + 2 legendaries at 970 that would place their average iLvL at 944 so being about 1-1.5 iLvL's higher isn't much. For their ilvl to be that high they would need 6 pieces at 945, 8 at 940, 2 at 970. Granted that's just at basic levels and with titanforging could have several 920's etc. So that's about right and even with titanforging being at a +15 cap like some want that would still happen. At a +15 cap (and assumed it was 100% for math) that's 2 955 pieces, 12 940 and 2 970's.



People do it far more this expansion because they feel they are being better rewarded for it because there's always that chance. In the past it was got it, done. They also have other incentives to go back. AP / Legendaries, etc. You can't pull out just Titanforging and say that's the issue when there are plenty of reasons why people do older material.



While I didn't put much effort into it you can find various sites that state that Mythic mode was created so it could allow them to "focus on delivering the best possible experience for competitive hardcore raiders". Best experience does not always equate into loot. Other places mention that Mythic difficulty for raids is designed to be the most challenging instance available. Which is satisfies. It also offers highest item level gear (which it does, it's the highest base gear you can get in the game), exclusive achievements (Cutting Edge / Mythic achievements), mounts (sometimes, not always) and other rewards (different cosmetics on gear).

So you pulled that bullshit out of nowhere? Got you.

What base the item level has means nothing. You should never be able to get a mythic level item from just AFKing, like you can now.
Titanforge needs to go if WoW wants to be taken seriously again. It's as simple as that. No one asked for an online casino game but thats what Legion is.

[Maduk]

Jeah please remove TF so we only do one raid per week and nothing else for the whole week.

[Tradu]

The incentive is to actually help others out. A lot of people will refuse to help friends and stuff because they feel it's pointless unless they have an alt to take in there. Now if they take their main they could get lucky. While most people would think to help their friends, randoms, etc they will see "What's in it for me" first. No, not everyone is like this, but a lot are.

And not helping other people is fine, people aren't obligated to do so. Essentially forcing that through rewards is idiotic and doesn't make helping any more fun, it just makes it an expected part of gearing up, which is absurd. Growing out of content is good, otherwise you end up in the stupid situation we have in Legion where people run all the old raids simply for legendaries or praying for a huge BTI/Whispers/CoF/T19 piece TF, which is not fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Jeah please remove TF so we only do one raid per week and nothing else for the whole week.

Because running the same raid(or raids you've been doing for months already and are sick of) on multiple difficulties is so fun. Oh wait, it's shit.

[omeomorfismo]

the very first kill on mythic avatar had a higher average ilvl than the loot he drops, and if we just go down to top 20-30 then it's way higher
and dont forget that his hp literally had to be hotfixed to be less in the first week because he was unkillable in gear he supposedly drops

lulz so much lies. even in the interview method says that the hp nerf wasnt needed (and the video kill even prove this)

[shaunika123]

We're getting there!

With better tuning, much more guilds would've been able to kill the bosses with signficantly lower itemlvl, and in consequence, all bosses would've dropped gear upgrades long before titanforging or anything else overgeared them.

but they were tuned with titanforging in mind

see emerald nightmare, blizz didnt expect that amount of gear from mythic+ and splits and people steamrolled through it
then they realized, oh shit people will have higher gear then we expected, and tuned bosses accordingly

it's not "bosses are overtuned so we need TF gear" it's "we have TF gear so bosses are overtuned"

lulz so much lies. even in the interview method says that the hp nerf wasnt needed (and the video kill even prove this)

you know what wouldve proved it? them killing it

exorsus helya kill video proved they couldve killed it without the bug, yet they still were banned

[Lucetia]

Bosses in Legion(post-EN) have all been tuned for higher gear than they drop, because titanforging forces them to. It's not just Avatar. That's one of the problems caused by TF.

While I have no internal proof of this (nor does anyone else) I find that a bit hard to believe. If that's the case then Warlords of Draenor raids were all balanced around the entire raid being full Titanforged for each mythic raid. The thing is they weren't.

The raids are more tuned around having high artifact power and one of the reasons why I'm glad they didn't increase the ranks this time.

So you pulled that bullshit out of nowhere? Got you.

Alright I guess you can't do your own research. No point in further discussing it with you.

What base the item level has means nothing. You should never be able to get a mythic level item from just AFKing, like you can now.
Titanforge needs to go if WoW wants to be taken seriously again. It's as simple as that. No one asked for an online casino game but thats what Legion is.

Wow. You know I really wish I knew where these mythical spots are that people always keep talking about where you can afk and get mythic loot. It's almost like it's a myth because it is. You can't afk and just get mythic loot. You always have a chance, but I bet you can't show more than a handful of armories with World Quest / LFR loot titanforged up to 940.

And not helping other people is fine, people aren't obligated to do so. Essentially forcing that through rewards is idiotic and doesn't make helping any more fun, it just makes it an expected part of gearing up, which is absurd. Growing out of content is good, otherwise you end up in the stupid situation we have in Legion where people run all the old raids simply for legendaries or praying for a huge BTI/Whispers/CoF/T19 piece TF, which is not fun.

Except people don't need to do all that. That is their choice. If they aren't having fun then stop. No one is forcing them too. Stop expecting Blizzard to handhold people who have no self control. As I mentioned to another users equating Legendaries to the issue doesn't help as the two aren't related.

[Kaesebrezen]

Bosses in Legion(post-EN) have all been tuned for higher gear than they drop, because titanforging forces them to. It's not just Avatar. That's one of the problems caused by TF.

Let me take your guild as an example:

Goroth: Itemlvl 922.8
Harjatah/Inquisition/Sisters: Itemlvl 923.02
Host: 926
Mistress: 929

If you look at that, and substract the +5 itemlvl from legendaries, you entered mythic at 918... That's barely any titanforging.

Thie issue is, that by the time mistress was actually killable for the vast majority of "mythic raiders", due to nerfs, crucible and gear, they overgeared the rest of the instance.

You don't get loot because the boss tuning and design starting from mistress is absolutely garbage. Not because of titanforging.

Sure, titanforging had some implications on tuning, but you're making it out to be signficantly more than it actually is.

[Tradu]

While I have no internal proof of this (nor does anyone else) I find that a bit hard to believe. If that's the case then Warlords of Draenor raids were all balanced around the entire raid being full Titanforged for each mythic raid. The thing is they weren't.

The raids are more tuned around having high artifact power and one of the reasons why I'm glad they didn't increase the ranks this time.



Alright I guess you can't do your own research. No point in further discussing it with you.



Wow. You know I really wish I knew where these mythical spots are that people always keep talking about where you can afk and get mythic loot. It's almost like it's a myth because it is. You can't afk and just get mythic loot. You always have a chance, but I bet you can't show more than a handful of armories with World Quest / LFR loot titanforged up to 940.



Except people don't need to do all that. That is their choice. If they aren't having fun then stop. No one is forcing them too. Stop expecting Blizzard to handhold people who have no self control. As I mentioned to another users equating Legendaries to the issue doesn't help as the two aren't related.

Are you seriously comparing WoD WF to Legion TF+artifacts+legendaries? Of course Blizzard has to tune around TF considering they built the entire expansion around it, including infinitely farmable M+ adding more high base ilevel gear to the equation.

Legendaries and TF cause the same type of degenerate gameplay, so they're definitely related.

[Lucetia]

Are you seriously comparing WoD WF to Legion TF+artifacts+legendaries? Of course Blizzard has to tune around TF considering they built the entire expansion around it, including infinitely farmable M+ adding more high base ilevel gear to the equation.

Legendaries and TF cause the same type of degenerate gameplay, so they're definitely related.

Why can't you compare the two? Warlord raids would have to be designed around Heroic Titanforge while Legion is designed around Heroic Titanforge + 5-10 (I'd guess due to legendaries and artifact traits). The same principle applies to both. Warlords of Draenor wasn't built around having full Heroic Titanforge, just like Legion isn't built around have full Titanforge to the cap type gear.

[Aggrophobic]

While I have no internal proof of this (nor does anyone else) I find that a bit hard to believe. If that's the case then Warlords of Draenor raids were all balanced around the entire raid being full Titanforged for each mythic raid. The thing is they weren't.

The raids are more tuned around having high artifact power and one of the reasons why I'm glad they didn't increase the ranks this time.



Alright I guess you can't do your own research. No point in further discussing it with you.



Wow. You know I really wish I knew where these mythical spots are that people always keep talking about where you can afk and get mythic loot. It's almost like it's a myth because it is. You can't afk and just get mythic loot. You always have a chance, but I bet you can't show more than a handful of armories with World Quest / LFR loot titanforged up to 940.



Except people don't need to do all that. That is their choice. If they aren't having fun then stop. No one is forcing them too. Stop expecting Blizzard to handhold people who have no self control. As I mentioned to another users equating Legendaries to the issue doesn't help as the two aren't related.

I can do and I did. Found nothing of the sort.
You're simply lying for whatever reason.

[slime]

but they were tuned with titanforging in mind

see emerald nightmare, blizz didnt expect that amount of gear from mythic+ and splits and people steamrolled through it
then they realized, oh shit people will have higher gear then we expected, and tuned bosses accordingly

it's not "bosses are overtuned so we need TF gear" it's "we have TF gear so bosses are overtuned"




you know what wouldve proved it? them killing it

exorsus helya kill video proved they couldve killed it without the bug, yet they still were banned

Oh cool, tuning bosses around RNG?! There we go Blizz - I think you finally hit your sweet spot.

[Lucetia]

I can do and I did. Found nothing of the sort.
You're simply lying for whatever reason.

Yup, has nothing to do with me uses direct wording from the pages I saw it on so you could easily google it. Yup, must be your google search engine is broken. Sorry to hear about that.

Kind of like how "AFK for Mythic Level loot all the time"

[omeomorfismo]

but they were tuned with titanforging in mind

see emerald nightmare, blizz didnt expect that amount of gear from mythic+ and splits and people steamrolled through it
then they realized, oh shit people will have higher gear then we expected, and tuned bosses accordingly

it's not "bosses are overtuned so we need TF gear" it's "we have TF gear so bosses are overtuned"






you know what wouldve proved it? them killing it

exorsus helya kill video proved they couldve killed it without the bug, yet they still were banned

1° a missing proof isnt a proof for the opposite thesis
2° you can easily do the math with the remaining time and dps and prove if the kill could happened with old health

[shaunika123]

Oh cool, tuning bosses around RNG?! There we go Blizz - I think you finally hit your sweet spot.

it's not that RNG, if you do a lot of content frequently TF will more or less average out on the raids ilvl

to the individual sure, it's super RNG, to a whole guild, not that much(it's still rng, but nothing significant)

1° a missing proof isnt a proof for the opposite thesis
2° you can easily do the math with the remaining time and dps and prove if the kill could happened with old health

it's not missing proof, they didnt kill it, there's your proof

yeah you can do math, and by that logic if you wipe on 1% on a boss you should get the kill cos you couldve killed him if you got a bit more lucky.

im not disputing they may have been able to kill it, but they didnt, and noone else did, no matter how much math you do nothing will dispute that.

a million things can go wrong in those last 5% (I should know, i had sub 1% wipes on both avatar and KJ before killing them)

[Maduk]

Because running the same raid(or raids you've been doing for months already and are sick of) on multiple difficulties is so fun. Oh wait, it's shit.

Then don't do it if you don't like it.
As long as I get a chance on better loot, I'll run it.

[Teri]

Jeah please remove TF so we only do one raid per week and nothing else for the whole week.

World content/Mythic+ should just be interesting enough, and not like the current legendary RNG.

Systems like "do as many raids a week for bad luck protection Legendaries or good luck Titanforge" is not really interesting design.

I would be fine with 1 raid per week loot lockout. Would fix split runs as well for the most part.

Even if you make LFR part of that lockout, give an incentive for people to do normal+, and titanforging isn't it.

Also it would likely keep the high itemlevel players in the highest difficulties instead of "940+ normal speedrun raid go go go", because doing normal would prevent them from going heroic or mythic.

Mythic+ should be tuned/repeatable, even AP system or weekly chest is fine. Even if they moved titanforge/legendaries to a currency-purchaseable system, it would be more interesting then current "luck", it would also give the hardcore M+ people incentive to do high M+ and for let's say more currency and base-itemlevel.

Likewise, make the legendary/item upgrade currency drop in bigger quantities from higher raid difficulties.

Currency/manual upgrades are just far better tune-able then any % luck system ever will.

[slickwilly]

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.
People such as you that want everything for free would be the end of the game so thankfully, you're no game developer either. There would be no reason to ever log into a game you designed, now would there? I mean, you might as well get the loot in the mail then, eh?

In any case, the game did reward skill and dedication back when it was at its top so, you know... It did work quite well.

Its not the same. LFR=885, mythic=930. Mythics starting ilvl is a once in a blue moon LFR titan forge. Get over yourself. I promise someday you will get your mythic snowflake title and all your gear will be super shiney.....

[Lucetia]

but they were tuned with titanforging in mind

see emerald nightmare, blizz didnt expect that amount of gear from mythic+ and splits and people steamrolled through it
then they realized, oh shit people will have higher gear then we expected, and tuned bosses accordingly

it's not "bosses are overtuned so we need TF gear" it's "we have TF gear so bosses are overtuned"

Using Emerald Nightmare as your gauge isn't a good idea. Emerald Nightmare was never designed to be a hard raid. It's entry level for the expansion to get people's feet wet. Titanforging played some level in it to help boost sure, but the power of Legendaries was underestimated, the sheer willpower of raiders to max out their artifact amongst other things (think that one had class stacking higher than usual). There were a lot of factors that played into it. You can't say 100% titanforging was the problem and that's why raids got harder.

[Raiju]

People do it far more this expansion because they feel they are being better rewarded for it because there's always that chance. In the past it was got it, done. They also have other incentives to go back. AP / Legendaries, etc. You can't pull out just Titanforging and say that's the issue when there are plenty of reasons why people do older material.

Titanforging is THE reason people walk into a mythic boss right now with higher ilvl than the boss drops. Yes. Legendaries are the only other system that helps there, but 2 legendaries don't make 10 overall ilvls by themselves. Now add on the nether crucible.