[Rant] ilvl issue and players skill

[Deleted]

The wowprogress score is so flawed I'm not sure why the carebear community takes it so seriously. The only real metric in this game that ever relayed any information about player skill is arena ratings. If I ever look up a player in queue I will glance at their highest arena ratings and achievements and 9 times out of 10 that tells me if they are a good player or not. I know it's a sensitive subject for some but good WoW players at some point hit at least 2200 in arena and have most of the achievements. If someone never did this then it's a big red flag that they only raid and get carried.

I've joined several M+ groups that recruited based on wowprogress only to find that the other dps couldn't keep up in the slightest. Wowprogress doesn't tell you if someone has been carried or not.

[Otimus]

The community is toxic toward people that aren't experienced and guilded. That's the main problem. I don't know how it is in other MMORPGs, but in WoW, it's just awful. Most people are just flat out too afraid to admit they don't know something out of rightful fear they'd be immediately kicked and shunned for not knowing something. (That's something I had to learn the hard way, way back when pugging in 2009). Most people, unguilded, don't really want to play the game. They're farming for easy rewards and not much else, and everyone is viewed as some sort of obstacle toward that.

Either join a guild, or accept that getting anything of merit done is going to be a massive uphill climb. The community hates everyone and itself and is antithetical toward teamwork and good sportsmanship if they're not friends.

Orrrrr... do like me and abandon the idea of the modern MMORPG and sigh and whine a lot.

[Deleted]

The community is toxic toward people that aren't experienced and guilded.

The inexperienced people should get some experience before attempting to screw other people's time. M+ has a multitude of levels - 10+ isn't exactly entry level. Why can't I mark such monkeys for a player/mod-tribunal to review logs or even in-game information (League of Legends style) and act accordingly upon their actions? Why has their entitlement to their perceived fun higher value than mine?

edit: I think I know now how the raiding community feels when LFR-raiders expect mythic group spots and loot while staying in LFR-mentality and -skill.

[VyersReaver]

Weekly order hall cache =.=

Ok, I won't do a M+10 this week, and will fully expect to get my FREE 935 piece, because you said so.
I will report you for trolling if I won't get one, ok?

[Shostradamus]

Quit.

You are obviously too good for the game. I can tell because after seeing these people make these mistakes you took no action to remedy it. Why the fuck should you, a top tier player, help others to correct their mistakes? I mean, how dare they not know what to do.

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

Ah. So you log on to play babysitter?

[FrostyK]

Ok, I won't do a M+10 this week, and will fully expect to get my FREE 935 piece, because you said so.
I will report your for trolling if I won't get one, ok?

I honestly hope you're trolling. If you're serious, I feel sorry for your parents. There are normal retards. This is advanced retard.

Infracted

[kamuimac]

So let me state again: PLEASE let me pay for a tool to reliably blacklist all the monkeys who destroy my (limited) gaming time. Preferably based on battletag, not char name.

if blizzard would ever be implementing anything into game it would be a tool working completly opposite to what you are suggesting - aka blacklisting toxic greedy people who do not value community but their own personal greedyness

such tool works perfeckly in FF14 where all antisocial elements like what you described in your post are eliminated from pugging world.

blizzard just dont care about wow anymore - its just a tool to milk cash no longer social mmorpg for them.

- - - Updated - - -

The community is toxic toward people that aren't experienced and guilded. That's the main problem. I don't know how it is in other MMORPGs, but in WoW, it's just awful. Most people are just flat out too afraid to admit they don't know something out of rightful fear they'd be immediately kicked and shunned for not knowing something. (That's something I had to learn the hard way, way back when pugging in 2009). Most people, unguilded, don't really want to play the game. They're farming for easy rewards and not much else, and everyone is viewed as some sort of obstacle toward that.

Either join a guild, or accept that getting anything of merit done is going to be a massive uphill climb. The community hates everyone and itself and is antithetical toward teamwork and good sportsmanship if they're not friends.

Orrrrr... do like me and abandon the idea of the modern MMORPG and sigh and whine a lot.

current wow community desires only one thing - lobby based dungeon/raid finder pug game with ranking system like the one in LoL - thats what they really want - they couldnt give less f...s about mmorpg aspects anymore - thats why all the wowprogress / raider.io/itlv shunning bs .

they are just to big pussies to admit its truth

- - - Updated - - -

Ah. So you log on to play babysitter?

its called having social interactions

something which clearly people playing wow hate.

its just so sad looking how wow has devolved over the years into toxic puddle :/

[Deleted]

The community is toxic toward people that aren't experienced and guilded.

No, not at all. The community doesn't like people with no experience who play content that requires some experience to do well, especially when those inexperienced players aren't vocal about their inexperience and just fuck up the experience for everyone.

If you don't know the tactics for, for example, ToS Heroic, then don't apply for a Heroic run expecting to wing it and get carried. Instead you can do LFR and Normal to get an idea for what would happen on Heroic. You can also watch a video, read the dungeon journal or talk to people.
Same with +15 pugs: if you don't know the tactics of a M+ dungeon well enough to do it on a difficulty that can be punishing, then run lower keys and work your way up. If you do a DHT +3 you won't notice that the first 2 packs are the toughest part of the dungeon, but you'll get a feel for the knockback on Dressaron, the silence mechanic on Xavius, the shrooms that spawn on the packs with Keepers/flowers. Moving up to +8 you'll start noticing that the jumping cats start to hurt, so you'll learn to focus them or make sure they are stunned/rooted.
Going higher you'll notice that bear roars hurt and that you can outrange them as a ranged, etc.

Incremental increases exposes you to incremental learnings in M+. That's how the system works, and it works perfectly well like this.

It's so simple: follow the laid out progression path and you won't run into trouble. Don't jump in the harder bits of content when you actually have no clue what is going to happen.

[leorana]

Quite the contrary. As I said; I enjoy teaching (new) people how dungeon mechanics work in normal, heroics, and even standard Mythic dungeons (because it's almost impossibly to not hit an 840 ilvl). But Mythic+ dungeons are to dungeons what a Mythic raid is to raiding (or at least Blizzard wants them to be); and thus I expect every person in my group to understand the dungeon and the mechanics in it. If they don't, then they are a liar and looking to get carried in content that is not exactly carry-friendly. It is no different than lying on a job application from a functional and moral standpoint, if not a legal one.



.

IMO, the community needs more ppl/players like you, who are willing to help, teach and communicate. overall it would make the player base stronger.

I'm a casual Blood DK. only done a few +11- +15. I only PuG for dungeons I KNOW I will not be a liability to my group. if I know for a fact I'll mess up (boulders in BRH with my 300ms constant latency) - I will not que no matter how good I know the rest of the dungeon. normaly if and when I make a mistake in an average pug you either get flamed or removed. that way, instead of learning and improving I'm just avoiding some dungeons and focusing on those I'm good at.

as a PuG I also get some bad players with high ilvl. my last run (MoS+11) we had 35 deaths while I never died and had to solo helya because avoiding a big purple AoE or not stacking while quacking is hard...

high ilvl is an entry requirement for pugs so casual focus EXACTLY on that instead of perfecting their game. why run a +8 (if you even manage to get in) and hope for a decent gear drop when you can farm relinquished tokens to customize your gear (casual PoV)? I have 940 ilvl gear on me when I que, but it's trash and I replace it with my optimized 930. it's true there's a very low correlation between gear and skill but unless you have the right ilvl you'll simply have no way proving your worth in the first place.

filtering by ilvl will never change, which is too bad, in most cases it only shows how much gold you had (crafted, BoE and carries) or how good the RNG gods are treating you. whenever the skill vs gear debate comes up I remind myslef of that guild back in wrath who raided in full blues as a choice.


actually being good in this game is requires guidance and practice, both are hard to come by in a PuG, if more players were wiling to teach (as you said you do) maybe the pug experiance were easier on all of us.

[CoastGrowler]

What most people seem to struggle to understand is the fact that under absolutely NO circumstances you're given the right to dictate who is worthy of playing a game. As the word says, it's a GAME. People who you call "bad" and "casuals" will be around wheter you like it or not. It's not up to you to question this, nor to bash anyone for not having the skill/time you find desirable. What you can do, however, is to avoid certain areas of the game in where you're most likely to find those people you so desperately want away. The game is not your personal shell. If you're not happy with the way it is, either leave it, or find a smaller shell for yourself.

[FrostyK]

IMO, the community needs more ppl/players like you, who are willing to help, teach and communicate. overall it would make the player base stronger.

I'm a casual Blood DK. only done a few +11- +15. I only PuG for dungeons I KNOW I will not be a liability to my group. if I know for a fact I'll mess up (boulders in BRH with my 300ms constant latency) - I will not que no matter how good I know the rest of the dungeon. normaly if and when I make a mistake in an average pug you either get flamed or removed. that way, instead of learning and improving I'm just avoiding some dungeons and focusing on those I'm good at.

as a PuG I also get some bad players with high ilvl. my last run (MoS+11) we had 35 deaths while I never died and had to solo helya because avoiding a big purple AoE or not stacking while quacking is hard...

high ilvl is an entry requirement for pugs so casual focus EXACTLY on that instead of perfecting their game. why run a +8 (if you even manage to get in) and hope for a decent gear drop when you can farm relinquished tokens to customize your gear (casual PoV)? I have 940 ilvl gear on me when I que, but it's trash and I replace it with my optimized 930. it's true there's a very low correlation between gear and skill but unless you have the right ilvl you'll simply have no way proving your worth in the first place.

filtering by ilvl will never change, which is too bad, in most cases it only shows how much gold you had (crafted, BoE and carries) or how good the RNG gods are treating you. whenever the skill vs gear debate comes up I remind myslef of that guild back in wrath who raided in full blues as a choice.


actually being good in this game is requires guidance and practice, both are hard to come by in a PuG, if more players were wiling to teach (as you said you do) maybe the pug experiance were easier on all of us.

Now.. about the teaching part.

1) sometimes it is the player who fails that tend to rage and blame others. Or they ninja-logged and rage quit. Only a small handful of the fails stayed and are genuinely willing to learn. Most of them just leave and then queue another key hoping to get carried again. Example, I got a dps that blame the healer for poor heal because he stool infront of Hymdall Cleave. He was not aware hymdall could cleave. When asked why was he standing infront of hymdall, he said its easier to avoid dragon by standing there. He then proceed to flame the group because "lol u nub group dont know mechanics and nub heal" and left. The worst thing about this is, he obviously truly felt that he was right. That is the scary part. Needless to say, we went on and finished the key without him.

2) For the "its your elitist fault for not teaching us" folks. Mythic + have a timer. People who are running them will want to finish it without lowering his key unless the party leader specifically put "for completion only". Most players won't have the patience to teach a clueless player. Also, all mythic dungeons can be learnt via wowhead guides and watching youtubes and a little bit of practice on normal mythic. If you truly wish to learn, it can be done without 4 other people guiding you. I've learn all my dungeons mechanics via youtubes and then practicing them on low keys. Most of the stuff can be cleared with solid individual performance. Only when you start hitting +17 and above keys, this is where you need to communicate chain stuns/pushbacks/interrupts. There is really nothing that the group can tells you which guides/youtube doesn't cover.

3) If you join a run that are "pushing key, aiming +3". It is REQUIRED of you to know every single trash skills and boss mechanic. This is a no bye. I could let reason 1) and 2) slide but this is the player's fault. None of these "teach me senpai" reason is valid.

4) Now mythic+ dungeon difficulty in WoW is all over the place. It is not linear. When you first hit lvl 110, normal mythic can be hard if you don't have a carry in your group. When you start decking yourself out in 2 legendaries, relinquish/unsullied tokens, world quest gears... +2M to +6M is ridiculously easy. You're probably overgeared, you can stand in shits and not die. You tend to get people who are outrageously over-geared in your group too. Thus the game gives you a false sense of confidence that you are doing well. Maybe you are doing well. But say a new healer who is healing a ilvl940 Blood DK, will think "damn this shit is easy". New dps won't care their performance as long as boss are dying. New tanks need not manage their CDs as bosses are going down fast. I do not blame the players for this. It's not their fault to be lead into this false sense of confidence. It's just how the game is now currently.

Then when these player, thinking they are up to the task, goes into a +10.. shit hits the fan. Jagged disc one shot you. Thundercaller one shot you. Arcane blast went off thrice with no one interrupting. But what would they know, they never had to pop defensive or healing cool-down at trash before. In +5, you get 2-3sec leeway to get your ass out of hymdall drake but on +10 tyran, it kills you outright. Then these players start raging and start blaming others because they never had any problem in the past. Most of the time,they don't even know what killed them.

<snipped off topic post>

[sixeph]

I think that the M+ system is in a good spot, but not something that should really be pugged above like 10. I was able to do a +12 on my mage in a really good pug, but that was lucky.

There is a cap to all things when pugging, and you shouldn't be complaining about trying to go through something that really needs a well coordinated group.

If you can't just outgear it, that's a good sign that pugging it shouldn't be your first option.

[dacoolist]

The wowprogress score is so flawed I'm not sure why the carebear community takes it so seriously. The only real metric in this game that ever relayed any information about player skill is arena ratings. If I ever look up a player in queue I will glance at their highest arena ratings and achievements and 9 times out of 10 that tells me if they are a good player or not. I know it's a sensitive subject for some but good WoW players at some point hit at least 2200 in arena and have most of the achievements. If someone never did this then it's a big red flag that they only raid and get carried.

I've joined several M+ groups that recruited based on wowprogress only to find that the other dps couldn't keep up in the slightest. Wowprogress doesn't tell you if someone has been carried or not.

As much as I used to strictly PVP with friends super casually back in MOP/WOD - I still knew a lot of skill was required for PVE content as well. Many players have been carried to glad, and even R1 in the past, so to only believe PVP is the hard part of the game isn't really seeing the big picture.

Now if you want to compare 2200 to just killing heroic kj, at the moment, I'd say heroic KJ has been nerfed into the abyss - and he's probably only as hard as maybe a 1500-1600 3's team - but believe it, mythic content is brutal, and is EASILY as hard as 2200 if not harder for Mythic Avatar, and Mythic KJ.

You can't compare two super huge parts of the game due to the fact that people just HATE pvp, and have never attempted it.

When I judge someone on how good they are, I look at everything, Challenge modes, Heroic/Mythic kills, Feats/Legacy Achieves, Time stamps... But if I'm setting up an EZMOAD +10 mythic plus.. all you really need is someone with 929ilvl to smoke the crap out of it.

Now fast forward to the week after Blitzzcon when EVERYONE needs to get a 15 in... believe it, I won't be taking ANYONE below 940 equipped... we need to clear the place, not disband lol.

[Wilderness]

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[Useful]

"dont stand in fire silly billy" is my new motto!

[FrostyK]

"dont stand in fire silly billy" is my new motto!

Now looking back, it was a really funny comment. At the point of time, i was too mad to appreciate it lol.

[gioderpington]

I wouldn't worry for to much longer. As soon as antorus comes out, 940 will be low again. People will also start doing +20s instead of +10s and Ilvl walls will rebuild themselves
For now use raider.io or use guildmates. I refuse to do a m+ above 7 w/o a guildie.

[tikcol]

You're right, bad and/or casual players don't deserve the gear they wear nowadays.

[FrostyK]

I wouldn't worry for to much longer. As soon as antorus comes out, 940 will be low again. People will also start doing +20s instead of +10s and Ilvl walls will rebuild themselves
For now use raider.io or use guildmates. I refuse to do a m+ above 7 w/o a guildie.

I have to agree with this. It's always that 1months before raid patch, things tend to get out of control. I really don't get why blizz need to patch certain things in before Antorus comes out. Namely

1) Crucible. Inflate your weapon ilvl by 15
2) Weekly cache loot reduced to +10 key instead of +15.
3) 910 relinquish tokens. A warforged version is the same ilvl as H ToS.

I can understand if these changes come out together with Antorus for easier gearing. I don't buy the reason that it gives players more time to attain gears before Antorus. Most players are who preparing for Antorus are already in the range of 930-940. Guilds will do alt runs to get their alts up in no time. Casuals don't need 910s if they are not stepping foot into H/M Antorus on the day it comes out. At this point most raiders have probably outgeared H Antorus ilvl. We don't really need all these high ilvl stuff before the raid patch. Is there an angle that I am not seeing?

In WoW history, there has always been issues arising from pre-patching all these stuff before the next expansion or next raid tier comes out. Remember when Ret pallies are one shotting people with 5sec stuns and divine storm because the skills were pre-patch before the expansion? Or when LFR was screwed because they allow power leveling to the max level before Legion hits.

[dcc626]

crucible was to make ToS easier. it certainly accomplished that.