Are barriers to mythic raiding worth it?

[cparle87]

On relevant bosses flex wouldn't actually be flex. It would just be whatever number of players gives you certain debuff target cutoffs or best boss/add health ratios.

Cross-realm serves no gameplay purpose, it's only there for Blizzard to make money off server/faction changes.

Yeah, I remember when they added that in SoO. For some bosses, like Malkorok, there was this magic number raids wouldn't let themselves go over, under the mistaken impression it scaled everything to 25 at that point or some nonsense.

[Osmeric]

It would break some H guilds in the beginning, but it would cauterize the wound.

It's a very bad idea, and you should be completely ashamed for thinking otherwise. Many players confronted by this change would simply quit. I know I would.

[Thoughtcrime]

Just going to echo the sentiment that 10 player Mythic solves a lot of the issues with guild stability.

WoW has an aging player base, when most people playing it were in their teens and early twenties it wasn't unreasonable to have 40 player raiding, students have a lot of free time. Now that those same players are in their late twenties to early forties it's just not doable anymore. It's too hard to balance real life commitments with the organisation required to run the 22 - 30 player roster needed to maintain steady raiding.

[Otimus]

The real solution, which has always been the solution for most every raiding related issue in the entire history of the game has been two things:

Don't have a difficulty cliff, instead have a difficulty curve. They're unwilling to do this. (and it sure as hell doesn't stop at raiding either. This is why the playerbase is kind of bad at the game, and always kind of will be. The game is pathetically easy until it isn't and the only way to learn is third party resources or being naturally gifted at these kind of games. Then, after you pass that hurdle, you better hope the other 4-29 people have done the same thing. Blizzard's long term solution to this has been to just make everything but the top end easier and easier for everyone, pretty much since the first expansion.)

Merge low population realms and or give people on small realms a way to join guilds on other realms. They're unwilling to do this.

[Thoughtcrime]

The real solution, which has always been the solution for most every raiding related issue in the entire history of the game has been two things:

Don't have a difficulty cliff, instead have a difficulty curve. They're unwilling to do this. (and it sure as hell doesn't stop at raiding either. This is why the playerbase is kind of bad at the game, and always kind of will be. The game is pathetically easy until it isn't and the only way to learn is third party resources or being naturally gifted at these kind of games. Then, after you pass that hurdle, you better hope the other 4-29 people have done the same thing. Blizzard's long term solution to this has been to just make everything but the top end easier and easier for everyone, pretty much since the first expansion.)

That's a really good point that I've talked about in another thread in relation to things that FFXIV does really well. In that game the older content does get reasonably easier but almost all content largely remains relevant forever due to level scaling and the difficulty curve is maintained all the way through the leveling experience. That allowed for harder equivalents to LFR and an overall more capable player base that is gradually prepared to transition into extreme and savage mode encounters.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

At the end of the day, all I really care about is having 1-2 raid nights per week with my friends. I'm not fussed about the number on the loot, because we all know that's a treadmill. It does feel good to be 'progressing', however you want to define that. To me, that means taking on a challenge bigger than the one we've already downed several times and have on farm. If they want H to keep most guilds busy the whole tier, maybe H needs to be harder? Or maybe the bosses should scale even more in difficulty as you progress through instance? Because for many players, the way it works now, stepping from H to M means leaving friends behind.

[Deleted]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

No flex because it would be too difficult to balance. There also would be many weird ideal setups for different bosses, for example: bring 12 people for first boss, bring 26 people for 2nd boss, etc. From my hardcore raider perspective, the game would be more complicated (which is fun), you'd spend many hours figuring out the best strategy to clear out entire raid. (Would it be worth to bench these 4 people so we can get easier kill but they won't get loot which could be used for next boss? Would it be worth to bring this specific X person who isn't that good and therefore is risk for our raid but then the mechanics would scale in such a way, that it would be easier to kill the boss? ...etc)

No cross-realm because real life cash boosting would go to completely different level than it is now. Let's say our guild clears the raid in 4th week so we can basically help out anyone from our region in such an easy way. No need to transfer etc. It could or could not actually break the game apart. More boosting done from top guilds would mean more chances to get banned => more bans => less top tier players. Ofc noobs would be able to boost people too but at such late point of progression that it'd became irrelevant.

And yes, in my opinion, any guild that stands in your way should break apart just so your guild could become stronger.

[Kelathos]

Character server and faction locks prevent us from finding a guild that works for us. Remove the barriers to grouping and you remove the biggest barrier to Mythic raiding. Make those automated services free.

[Jastall]

Back in the pre 3.0 era mastering the game meant you knew how to strategize in order to kill the boss, because the game didn't hold your hand and didn't do stuff such as managing ressources, holding aggro, etc automatically as it does now.

Currently players bang their heads on bosses whose strategy could be understood by a 10 year old child because the only thing that does matter is execution (hello Kill Jaeden and RNG armageddon). As someone who remember the old bosses such as vashj or Kael thas (which required intricate strategies to be taken down), the difference is obvious.

You don't master anything in the modern encounter design (that s exactly why the end raid bosses require 500 attempts or so), the only thing that does matter is wether you re able to dish enough DPS/healing/tanking (which is RNG reliant) while performing coordinated rope jumping (that is RNG reliant too).

You clearly haven't actually done high-end Mythic raiding if you think it's all about RNG and that strategy and player skill are irrelevant. Two shitty bosses in ToS don't change the fact that Mythic is hard and that not obeying mechanics to the letter can, will and should splatter your raid. What make Avatar and KJ suck is that the mechanics could be trivialized or almost required heavy class stacking and you had 0 chances of recovery because half of them just straight up one shot the raid.

Cripes even Mythic Gul'dan will still sodomize any group that doesn't position themselves correctly or doesn't know how to execute ph3. Or Helya with her 6M orbs that you still can't survive.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The real solution, which has always been the solution for most every raiding related issue in the entire history of the game has been two things:

Don't have a difficulty cliff, instead have a difficulty curve. They're unwilling to do this. (and it sure as hell doesn't stop at raiding either. This is why the playerbase is kind of bad at the game, and always kind of will be. The game is pathetically easy until it isn't and the only way to learn is third party resources or being naturally gifted at these kind of games. Then, after you pass that hurdle, you better hope the other 4-29 people have done the same thing. Blizzard's long term solution to this has been to just make everything but the top end easier and easier for everyone, pretty much since the first expansion.)

Merge low population realms and or give people on small realms a way to join guilds on other realms. They're unwilling to do this.

Perhaps another way to phrase/look at the question:

"Is there any good way to make the transition from one raid difficulty to the next more of a curve and less of a cliff? So that guilds can continuously move from one challenge to the next, with their barriers being game play rather than social ties and not wanting to break up the band?"

[Kokolums]

Mythic raiding would be worth it if there were vibrant in game communities. Every in game community would use mythic raiding progression as social status. The most-valued item would be your guild tag as a member of one of the top guilds in the community. Without the community, raiding loses a lot of meaning and incentive. You could push into mythic but it doesnt earn you repect or praise in the community because there is no community. Congrats, your guild has cleared half the mythic bosses....but you and your guild are still a faceless name.

[dakalro]

If I was confident I had solutions, I would have offered them already. I am entirely open to the possibility that we live in the best possible mythic raiding world and no changes would make things any better. My post originated from the following observations:

• Lots of guilds clear H early in a tier, without ever solidifying 20 members for M.
• Lots of great players in smaller guilds with friends, including RL friends, that are absolutely capable of raiding M successfully if not for the 20-gate to get in.
• Dissonance, sometimes even drama, in guilds that were otherwise happy but see no route for progression.
• Other content, like high M+ keys, that is popular in part because it offers challenge without the same gating.
• Lots of players who enjoy raiding but liken sitting in Dal spamming trade chat for recruiting to a visit to dentist office.

I think most of us agree that M should be challenging, but is finding and maintaining the 20 a fun part of the challenge? Maybe so, if you have been successful at it. Is it fun enough to make up for all the tension it creates in smaller guilds (which is probably 90% of guild that cleared H)? i.e., is it worth it?

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As for balance - sorry can't resist - are we talking about the kind of balance where all tank specs are equally survivable, all dps specs can do similar numbers, and all classes are equally capable of cheesing mechanics? Or the balance where all bosses are properly tuned when WF race begins?

But why would there be tension in a 20(-ish) player group if there's none in a 15(-ish) group? Yeah, if you're raiding heroic 10 man it's going to be a pain to get to 20 but 15 to 20 ... that's not a huge step-up.

On another note, going from heroic to mythic you shouldn't really recruit for mythic, since it creates false expectations (you won't be able to do mythic with 17 or 18) and new people will be demoralized by the waiting. Just recruit for a heroic team of 20-25 (depending on your attendance requirements and realities). Only once you're satisfied with your new 20+ team in heroic should you even consider proposing venturing into M, imo.

At most people should come in thinking that maybe, maybe if you get 20 you might try and kill the easy M bosses and see where that goes.

[Deleted]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

This depends on you and on you only. If you really crave that Mythic mythicness, you'll manage. If you have a wife or a job or, god forbid, both, you might want to stay in HC.

[Billy Idol]

10 men would fix it. In our guild the real problem is maintaining a 20 team. Some of the guys enjoy more M+. By July we stop doing M ToS we were 3/9

[Arainie]

Everyone saying flex would be too hard to balance: are you saying then that H is not balanced now? Is it somehow harder to balance M than H?

That's exactly what everyone is saying. Flex will never be balanced, you'll always have difficulties with soaks depending on group sizes. Healer numbers will always be more flexible in larger groups while healers will generally be proportionally stronger in smaller groups (due to AoE heals hitting half the raid etc). The list is almost endless and if you were actually around during previous expansions you'd know exactly what we're talking about.

WHAT IF... They got rid of flex H? Yeah it would cause short term disruption, but players would eventually settle into guilds with 20 teams - i.e., fewer guilds but bigger raid teams - so they wouldn't clear H and be stuck.

Trying to envision a game where clearing the instance on one difficulty would naturally lead to starting it on the next, without having to leave/break up guilds to do it.

I genuinely think what they're looking for is to keep Normal and Heroic accessible for everyone. Whether it's your bf/gf who just started playing the game or even your kids it should be inclusive and leave space for everyone, even if you have to start on normal and work your way up through the difficulty.

I don't think that's the aim with Mythic at all. I genuinely believe that they do care about keeping a very competitive level of raiding going in parallel with Mythic+, and for balancing reasons you simply have to lock the numbers or you'll have guilds using 12 raiders for one boss and 25 for the next causing even bigger problems for the top- and mid-range Mythic guilds. Even if us mythic raiders only make up a fraction of the playerbase (a few %), competitive gamers make up a large portion of the content creators (Twitch/Youtube, obviously including PvPers as well) and that's free marketing for Blizzard right there. On top of keeping the game interesting for the competitive part of the playerbase, no one would say no to free advertisement!

[Pickynerd]

Should just bring 10 man raiding back,thats all.

Ah yes, 10 man, nope never had any issues with 10 man.. The same people who can't make it to raid 20M now will still sign up for that 10M and not make it.

The real problem is: Burnout from minimal progression, for the 'average' player.

Normal progress.
Heroic progress.
Mythic progress.

LFR in between for xyz forged item.

Meaning most people by this time have seen each boss 20-50+ times depending on progression, and by now people are just bored.

[Osmeric]

Perhaps another way to phrase/look at the question:

"Is there any good way to make the transition from one raid difficulty to the next more of a curve and less of a cliff? So that guilds can continuously move from one challenge to the next, with their barriers being game play rather than social ties and not wanting to break up the band?"

A continuous increase in difficulty presents a problem though, unless there is a concurrent nerfing mechanism (including gear accumulation).

Without the nerfing mechanism, any group will eventually reach their collective skill cap and progresson will stop. At that point, the better players have the incentive to ditch the others.

A sudden jump in difficulty would mean that a group could run up against it, but the jump would be too much for the better players to want to risk moving on, since the next step might be beyond their ability. So the group would hold together.

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I genuinely think what they're looking for is to keep Normal and Heroic accessible for everyone. Whether it's your bf/gf who just started playing the game or even your kids it should be inclusive and leave space for everyone, even if you have to start on normal and work your way up through the difficulty.

Also, I think they consider carrying to be a key game mechanic. One big motivation for titanforging is to encourage carrying, with all the non-forged gear that drops going to rapidly gear up the lesser players.

[Jastall]

Bring back limited attempts in Mythic. Sort out the real skilled players from the ones who just throw their faces at bosses until they die. I loved the limited attempts. It allowed you to look at where and why you went wrong, instead of "lol wipe and go again" with little regard to why they wiped. Taking 10 mins to look over a fight back then was a lot harder than today, with live logging and shit.

Let's just ignore the fact that this changes nothing for top guilds who have 4-5 raid ready alts to throw at the boss in order to refine their tactics before hopping on their main. Meanwhile this seriously cockblocks the lesser raiders who usually don't even have a Mythic ready alt. Bad suggestion.

[Swalload]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

There's no valid reason for no cross-realm.

No flex is logical because of balancing reasons. If they make mythic flex, people would just find out what is the most efficient numbers of people to have in a raid to make mechanics as easy as possible, it will become common knowledge and it will be the new number people go by, so might as well have a real one.

If Heroic is over but mythic feels out of reach, it means it's the best time of the year: time to take a fucking break.

[Spotnick]

No reasons for mythic raids not to be cross-realm. But then can't be flex, it's impossible to balance them then.

They can't do that before they implement cross-realm GUILDS and tie lockouts to guilds.

Unless Blizzard change the lockout system to make it like heroic for mythic, because it would start some shady buisness of selling lockouts for snatching realm first and all other kind of crap.

Cross-realm guild is the way to go.

Blizzard said they had tech for new server connections, we'll see and probably hear about it soon.

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They could bring it down to 15 people. Alot easier to balance than 10, and being 5 less would be a significantly amount to help alot of guilds.

Lots of guilds clearing Heroic now and could at least do 3-5 bosses on mythic with a little change.

Some people will never get it... whatever that number is, the problems will remain the same. You'll have the same issues recruiting because there will be even more groups looking.

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No. They should get rid of barriers, as well as reduce difficulty. Gap between heroic and mythic difficulty is too big.

Not really, heroic Kil'jaden was harder than the first 4 mythic bosses.