mob's Getting 1-Shot!

[Socialhealer]

Stating ilvl for this expansion - 825.

Ending ilvl for this expansion - Probably ~970, 980.

So, 155 ilvls.

It really started in MoP though.

Starting ilvl - 463
Ending ilvl - 584-590 (Depending on Warforged, upgrades, ect).

So 130.

In WoD, it was significant, but only had 2 raid tiers. Still, went from 630 to 730-740, so a 100 increase. If there was a 3rd raid tier, we would have seen a similar increase that we are seeing now.

Even in past expansions though had a fairly significant boost. Cata - 333, ending at 410. WotLK - 200 starting, ending at 284. Granted, its only a 80ish ilvl increase, but compared to Vanilla? Vanilla was like starting at 65 and ending around 95. TBC, starting at 100, ending at 140ish.

So, really. We started with a 40 ilvl increase between start of endgame, to end of endgame. Then WotLK doubled it, and cata continued it. Then MoP doubled it again, and its been continued since then.

yup and because of this we're due for a squish im interested how they deal with vanilla loot.

at the rate we're going vanilla items won't have any main stat till level 30, level 60 items will be 2-3 main stat and level 90 will be like 10 main stat all so 120 can start off like 60 main stat and end the xpac like 120 main stat.

so leveling gets more and more pointless as they have to make characters so damn powerful gear is near useless, atm 200-333 gear got squished so much it's not even a noticeable upgrade at those levels.

[LiiLoSNK]

So as I was doing arenas the other day and I noticed a frost DK come up and he 1 shot me.

Don't get me wrong, I want to feel like I could've put up a fight, but to the point where that shit is one shotting me before I can blink?

How do you feel about FDKs?

[Divinite]

But they have always scaled this excessively, atleast post wrath.
Think of how many end-game systems we currently have would just completely break if they didnt scale the way they did.
Would works absolutely fine... There just wouldn't be as large of a difference between pre and post use of said catchup mechanic.

There would be difference, why you bothered to slip none in there is beyond me.

LFR is always lower than normal from the pervious tier so we can discard it as a problem, that leaves +6.6% per difficulty level. Plenty for different difficulties of the same raid tier, IMO.

You do different levels of raiding for other rewards, achievements, mounts, challenge... None of the people I know who raid mythic actually care about the higher ilvl gear, they just want to raid mythic to raid mythic.
By what logic? It would be tuned accordingly, the relative difficulty at the high end would still be exactly the same as it is now.



Good, fucking get rid of them, artifacts are responsible for over 50% of the damage and health pool inflation this expansion... And without weapon drops, the only exciting upgrades to look forward to in raids is trinkets.

You are totally missing the point. OP was suggesting a 5% power increase per tier from the start to the end of the expansion. The difference between difficulties with only 5% increase in stats/damage/whatever would be so miniscule spread out between 4 difficulties that you would BARELY notice because you would have to scale things so minimaly.

You would never be able to scale m+ so high because there would just not be enough power or gear to make each level of dungeon meaningfuly different, if you look how high the scaling goes past 10 at the moment you can can see the difference is HUGE

[Raziella]

I'm the goddamned leader of the Death Knights and for some forsaken reason I'm still out soloing grunt work in the field, punting fish and helping some lady pick up acorns that are clearly right at her feet... At least one shotting things makes me feel a tiny bit bad ass while I'm doing it, and more importantly saves a ton of time doing chores.

[Raugnaut]

yup and because of this we're due for a squish im interested how they deal with vanilla loot.

at the rate we're going vanilla items won't have any main stat till level 30, level 60 items will be 2-3 main stat and level 90 will be like 10 main stat all so 120 can start off like 60 main stat and end the xpac like 120 main stat.

so leveling gets more and more pointless as they have to make characters so damn powerful gear is near useless, atm 200-333 gear got squished so much it's not even a noticeable upgrade at those levels.

If there is another ilvl squish, it likely will NOT affect lvls 1-90 gear, all that already got squished. Chances are, just WoD-Legion will be squished. Still, that will be going from 4-5 mil HP now, down to 150-200k.

[mickybrighteyes]

yup and because of this we're due for a squish im interested how they deal with vanilla loot.

at the rate we're going vanilla items won't have any main stat till level 30, level 60 items will be 2-3 main stat and level 90 will be like 10 main stat all so 120 can start off like 60 main stat and end the xpac like 120 main stat.

so leveling gets more and more pointless as they have to make characters so damn powerful gear is near useless, atm 200-333 gear got squished so much it's not even a noticeable upgrade at those levels.

they'd do what they did last time.... squishing the problem levels. the 1-80 range isn't going to be squished much more than it already is.

[Schattenlied]

You are totally missing the point. OP was suggesting a 5% power increase per tier from the start to the end of the expansion. The difference between difficulties with only 5% increase in stats/damage/whatever would be so miniscule spread out between 4 difficulties that you would BARELY notice because you would have to scale things so minimaly.

You would never be able to scale m+ so high because there would just not be enough power or gear to make each level of dungeon meaningfuly different, if you look how high the scaling goes past 10 at the moment you can can see the difference is HUGE

Yes, he said 5% per tier, I am suggesting 20% (hence the 6.6% per difficulty figure and ignoring LFR since it's always lower than or equal to the previous raid's normal). 5% can easily be changed to like 15 or 20% per tier and we would still be far, FAR lower on scaling than we are now... So let's not act like the current power levels are anywhere near necessary... 15 or 20% per tier would be plenty of power gain per tier to notice, but as it stands right now, we gained several hundred % from just hitting 110 to the end of the first (actual) tier (nighthold), you can not tell me honestly that was a necessary amount of inflation. Even if we included EN and ToV as "tiers", if we gained 20% from 110 to the end of EN, and another 20% from ToV, and 20% from NH, we would still only be at +60(or +72% if you wanted the 20% to be multiplicative instead of additive), which is still a whole hell of a lot less than where we actually ended up by the end of NH, and more than enough to notice an increase in power... Right now, at the end of ToS, we'd only be at +80% (or +107%), when we're actually sitting somewhere in the +500% range... We shouldn't have seen this much of an increase over a "fresh" (ilvl 800) 110 until the end of the next expansion, if not longer.

[Divinite]

Yes, he said 5% per tier, I am suggesting 20% (hence the 6.6% per difficulty figure and ignoring LFR since it's always lower than the pervious raid's normal). 5% can easily be changed to like 15 or 20% per tier and we would still be far, FAR lower on scaling than we are now... So let's not act like the current power levels are anywhere near necessary... 15 or 20% per tier would be plenty of power gain per tier to notice, but as it stands right now, we gained several hundred % from just hitting 110 to the end of the first (actual) tier (nighthold), you can not tell me honestly that was a necessary amount of inflation. Even if we included EN and ToV as "tiers", if we gained 20% from 110 to the end of EN, and another 20% from ToV, and 20% from NH, we would still only be at +60(or +72% if you wanted the 20% to be multiplicative instead of additive), which is still a whole hell of a lot less than where we actually ended up by the end of NH... Right now, at the end of ToS, we'd only be at +80% (or +107%), when we're actually sitting somewhere in the +500% range.

While 20% per tier sounds reasonable, at this point of wows life I just dont see it happening.
So many things would need to change. Unless they severely change something and scrap ideas like warforge/titanforge, while also redesigning m+ levels, its just not going to happen.
But yes you are correct about the inflation this xpac

[Schattenlied]

While 20% per tier sounds reasonable, at this point of wows life I just dont see it happening.
So many things would need to change. Unless they severely change something and scrap ideas like warforge/titanforge, while also redesigning m+ levels, its just not going to happen.
But yes you are correct about the inflation this xpac

I honestly see Titanforging as a bad design... WoD had it right(one of the only things it did right), +5 ilvl or a socket was as far as it should have gone... If Titanforging is going to exist, it should only go up to +5 of what the last boss on mythic of the current tier drops by default (which means the max drop for items from that boss on mythic would just be a +5 warforge), no higher.

[Eon Drache]

Kind of goes back to Cata, and the main issue seems to be the massive gap between late game in expansion A and entry level raiding in expansion B (graph below is tiers). Do we really need a 100 ilvl gap between a final tier and first tier? The primary reason I could think of for the gap is not wanting trinkets or tier sets to be used in the next expansion, but putting a level cap on those effects would fix that.


The end result is that from Vanilla-Wrath we had what now equates to ~251 ilvls (3 game chapters). 4 expansions later we are almost at 1000.

I do think part of the reason we have huge jumps is to make older gear less relevant. If you look at the Retribution Tier for Hellfire Citadel it would have been BiS all throughout Legion until Nighthold. Probably even longer because of how Retribution works atm. Even with these huge jumps retribution paladins will keep 930 T20 until 960 tier 21. That's Mythic T20 to Mythic T21 and Tier 21 barely wins out vs Tier 20 with a 30-45 ilevel jump per piece.

[Mister Cheese]

They implemented mob scaling, the player base had a shit fit...

Yes because god forbid getting gear in raids actually means something.

[Temp name]

Fair enough. For me, it completely removes the feeling of danger from the game.

But it makes sense from that you shouldn't feel danger out in the world. You're playing as the pinnacle of *insert class here*, one of the most powerful beings on the planet. Random mob 37 shouldn't pose any sort of threat to you

[Charge me Doctor]

But it makes sense from that you shouldn't feel danger out in the world. You're playing as the pinnacle of *insert class here*, one of the most powerful beings on the planet. Random mob 37 shouldn't pose any sort of threat to you

Afaik you still get dumped on by some random legion undead pitlord (point is: you are far from being most powerful being on the planet), the only way to have a chance against him is to get more "most powerful being on the planet" and coordinate to take it down. Kinda same with regular mobs, except they are NPCs and can't gather up on you and coordinate their abilities.
So, yeah, while random mob alone shouldn't pose any threat (and he doesn't), but multiple random mobs paired with not-so-random-mob will take you down and give you a hard time. Unless you are heroic / ex-heroic class in tank spec, then you are fine

[zeoos]

Kind of goes back to Cata, and the main issue seems to be the massive gap between late game in expansion A and entry level raiding in expansion B (graph below is tiers). Do we really need a 100 ilvl gap between a final tier and first tier? The primary reason I could think of for the gap is not wanting trinkets or tier sets to be used in the next expansion, but putting a level cap on those effects would fix that.


The end result is that from Vanilla-Wrath we had what now equates to ~251 ilvls (3 game chapters). 4 expansions later we are almost at 1000.

You do realize that the ilvl increase is not the same as damage increase right? Because 10 ilvls doesn't mean a flat 5% damage increase.
The ilvl is only there for us to feel like we are progressing in terms of gearing.
Next expansion they could start at ilvl 1000 and only increase the stats on the items with +1 every ilvl.

The problem now is the Damage we do not the iLvl we have.

I reckon that another stat squish or another tuning on the scaling they implemented this expansion will come with the new raid tier.
Because at the numbers we pull today, we will out dps the Lightforge Warframe from the Vindicar Matrix Core with the new tier.

[Mahmeya]

They should make the mob health scale up with ilvl if they can't keep power growth in check. Just HP, not damage, because non-tank players don't get much durability with gear (which ws the reason for the outcry when they tried).

[zeoos]

They should make the mob health scale up with ilvl if they can't keep power growth in check. Just HP, not damage, because non-tank players don't get much durability with gear (which ws the reason for the outcry when they tried).

They did this with the scaling technology but there is an issue.
Why should you take the same time to kill a mob at 890ilvl as you do as 940ilvl? You would feel that your character hasn't become more powerful even though you worked really hard (rng drops lul) for your gear.

[Divinite]

They should make the mob health scale up with ilvl if they can't keep power growth in check. Just HP, not damage, because non-tank players don't get much durability with gear (which ws the reason for the outcry when they tried).

again, this was not really reason people were upset.
it was because they felt like the power they worked so hard for, for their characters, was useless.
They do not want to kill everything at the same speed they have been since the start of the expansion.
if you have no progression of character power and no content becoming obsolete then all content is pointless.

[Noxina]

I get that but why even buff gear to the point you'd need to scale mobs? Not only will you get push back, but the latest content would be horrible for new toons!

So hit 110 @ 7xx and highest gear is 94x? What if each tier was no more than 5% buff?

Do you remember going back in previous tiers farming trinkets that was better than the current tier? That's what happens if the gear doesn't scale enough. And it is a bad system.

I hated the fact that I had to farm BRF for my trinket as DK to get BiS for HFC. Sure we had the same problem now with CoF being really strong on some classes, but not as strong as Vial was back in HFC.


Also seeing your character grow in strenght is what makes MMOs fun. Give me insane scalings, I want the character to feel a LOT more powerful in the end of the expansion than it was in the start. Then they can nerf all the numbers they want between expansions.

[Lochton]

They implemented mob scaling, the player base had a shit fit...

Yeah, made me laugh my ass off. I honestly liked it but people's reaction... priceless..

[GreenJesus]

Do you remember going back in previous tiers farming trinkets that was better than the current tier? That's what happens if the gear doesn't scale enough. And it is a bad system.

I hated the fact that I had to farm BRF for my trinket as DK to get BiS for HFC. Sure we had the same problem now with CoF being really strong on some classes, but not as strong as Vial was back in HFC.


Also seeing your character grow in strenght is what makes MMOs fun. Give me insane scalings, I want the character to feel a LOT more powerful in the end of the expansion than it was in the start. Then they can nerf all the numbers they want between expansions.

You still have to do that because titanforging though.