I don't think people realize how easy the raids will actually be.

[potis]

That might be true, but i guess the players getting first kills in vanilla were much closer to "my playerbase" than to "hunters going for strength playerbase" and still were locked on progress for a long time. And I´m pretty sure theses players did get songflower buffs, did Juju raids, collected Hakkar hearts and Dragon Heads and still didn´t match the numbers Patchwerk needed.

We can argue that the average player now has more addons, more insight and more external tools, but the average player doesn´t get the first kills and won´t get the first kills on the new server.

And as long we don´t know which patch the server will run, we can´t even guess the time needed to clear MC/Ony/BWL. Will we get Diremaul gear from the start? Is ZG/AQ already in the game? Are the Skillbooks in the game? These three things will shorten progress a lot.

Everything will be cleaved down very quickly from the original raids because they werent really based on gear since Enrage timer wasnt a thing, and its not 2005 were 10 people should be there, 10 are not completely retarded, 20 are clueless monkeys.

Its not gonna be Vanilla, people just cant accept it.

I used to clear MC/BWL/AQ40 on a sunday so i can wipe all other week in Naxxramas, taking 5 guildies at 10am on sunday with 20 randoms from Orgrimmar to clear MC while others logged slowly and joined us overtime to continue with BWL/AQ40, still remember giving a rogue full nightslayer/core hound tooth/Perditions Blade in 2 hours :S,

Luckiest rogue alive.

Its just not gonna be the Vanilla people want it to be.

Its only gonna be a Vanilla were "Its not a scammy server that will randomly go down and steal our money" Vanilla server.

[Belisaurio]

I don't see a problem.
If your guild can have 40 hardcore raiders, farm enough items (RNG+3/5items loot in raids) for all your guildmates (stacking classes with the leveling that we had...) and play enough time to solve all logistic handicaps (buffs+pots+professions+grinding factions+pre-atunements+ chain quests like quintaessence) then you are beating the vanilla's "mythic difficult" (don't care if you have 20 players afk).

In other words, dificulty in vanilla wasn't about 100% skills, it was divided between other things.

P.D: Not saying that all bosses were eazy, but comparing them to KJ Mythic, well, they were eazy.

[KaPe]

If raids are so easy, why are "bad specs" (ret paladin, shadow priest, boomkim etc) actively discouraged?

Because they were *that* bad? It wasn't 10% difference like today, but more like 50%. And that's ignoring things like debuff limits, running out of mana on dps caster, pets dying to random boss sneezes and "wasting" gear on such inferior specs. Oh, and tier bonuses being focused on healing instead of dps, thus making weak specs even worse. In the end, a "good" class was easily worth three bad ones, so it's fairly easy to reach a point where even easy raid is impossible to do.

[Deleted]

That might be true, but i guess the players getting first kills in vanilla were much closer to "my playerbase" than to "hunters going for strength playerbase" and still were locked on progress for a long time. And I´m pretty sure theses players did get songflower buffs, did Juju raids, collected Hakkar hearts and Dragon Heads and still didn´t match the numbers Patchwerk needed.

We can argue that the average player now has more addons, more insight and more external tools, but the average player doesn´t get the first kills and won´t get the first kills on the new server.

And as long we don´t know which patch the server will run, we can´t even guess the time needed to clear MC/Ony/BWL. Will we get Diremaul gear from the start? Is ZG/AQ already in the game? Are the Skillbooks in the game? These three things will shorten progress a lot.



Are you talking about the Weak Aura that was build in ERT the very next ID? Yes it is great. Was it needed? Dont think so. Take a look at a kill two days later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIJQsDaInU (btw around 1:30, thats xpearl unitframes. Classic addon )

You want examples of super broken Addons?
Decursive - automatic smart dispells as soon as you hit a button. No need to see the debuff. The addon got rid of it
HealBot - the same thing with added heals
QuickHeal -https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/project-2800

Weak Auras tries to copy but can´t even compete with AVR http://www.wowinterface.com/download...16249-AVR.html (yes, not vanilla, i know, but WA isn´t over the top)
we got bossmods, raidframes, CDTracker, buff tracker, Debuff tracker. Everything was there.




So you think the playerbase sims their chars? Or even checks wol in detail? They read guides. They go to forums and ask. And forums aren´t a new thing

Are you serious that you don't believe addons have gotten more advanced or the average Joe has gotten tons better at the game? Sure there have always been forums, but the amount of information available now for almost zero effort is more than tenfold compared to Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Are you serious that you don't believe addons have gotten more advanced or the average Joe has gotten tons better at the game? Sure there have always been forums, but the amount of information available now for almost zero effort is more than tenfold compared to Vanilla.

The average Joe still sucks. Go and PUG a lot. You will see things like:
Hunters barrage pulling thrash behind the first boss in CoS
Mages trying to block after the impact at KJ (they can´t, they die)
Millions and billions of bombs on maiden
people not able to sidestep avalanches in NL or fel strikes in coen
people adding all trash on the way to host
people stepping in the traps between mistress to host
Shot on Sisters is a sure kill in a pug
flame wraeth causes a wipe because the player moved

And this is only my alt pug experience from last weekend. The average joe is still bad.

Addons look fancier. The still do the same thing: Let you decide where and how your debuffs/boss/timers/gearsets (whatever you want) are shown. In some cases they are worse, ranged checks on bosses as expample. Now they show you the name of the players too close. They used to also show you were they stood. And yes, Methods Archimond WA is outstanding, but thats a single WA for a single Boss. We had that back in WotlK known as AVR (got broken by Blizzard) and people try to recreate it (Exorsus Guldan Video comes to mind).

And you seem to underestimate how much impact a addon like ManaConserve had in classic, where the Enrage timer wasn´t a timer, it was your healers mana bar.

This mod is an automatic heal interrupter. It monitors certain heal spells, and will abort them if the target is above the configured
% at the pre-check time before the spell completes.

[Vofka]

lame wraeth causes a wipe because the player moved

Bloodlord Mandokir will be hilarious

[kamuimac]

Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses

this plus all mechanics are know very well

my suspition is people will waste more time clearing trash then "progressing " bosses

[Dangg]

Following factors

1) All game mechanics, tactics, class optimization have been figured out long ago
2) People have years of experience
3) 2017 raiding mentality is a huge improvment over what people did in the MC/BWL days. Raiders didn't went into MC with a fully optimized/buffed character in 2005
4) Current addons

[Marc7]

Yea. People have this fantasy that Vanilla raids were far harder than today (probably just taken from the stories of the overturned C'thun fight). Sure prepping pots, res gear and gathering 40 people was time consuming but bosses were nowhere near as complex as today's.

Vanilla Naxx was really hard though, as far as I understand. Never got very far in it though (killed only 3 bosses), since my guild went super inactive at the end of vanilla.

But this is definitely true about many of the earlier raids, especially MC, which is, nostalgia aside, not a good raid at all.

[senn]

Vanilla raids are "easier" with no mechanical skill required whatsoever but gearing up is more time consuming as it should be. You need to invest more time to get some of the loot that drops and it makes gear appear more "rare" and special. Also in my opinion shaman loot dropping for alliance doesn't matter because the horde has the same problem with paladin loot so it cancels out. Deal with it or go to legion.

[BloodyAngel12]

Vanilla raids are "easier" with no mechanical skill required whatsoever but gearing up is more time consuming as it should be. You need to invest more time to get some of the loot that drops and it makes gear appear more "rare" and special. Also in my opinion shaman loot dropping for alliance doesn't matter because the horde has the same problem with paladin loot so it cancels out. Deal with it or go to legion.

This only happened after the pre patch dropped.

[Enthralled]

Everything will be cleaved down very quickly from the original raids because they werent really based on gear since Enrage timer wasnt a thing, and its not 2005 were 10 people should be there, 10 are not completely retarded, 20 are clueless monkeys.

Its not gonna be Vanilla, people just cant accept it.

Have you not played on a high-quality Blizzlike private server like Nostalrius?
The way it will happen is this: there are a few guilds who are pros at hopping around from private server to private server and clearing MC/Ony/BWL etc really fast, actually in kind of an informal competition with each other. And they do it in full 40-man style; they're doing it in full progression style and unlike what you say you can't defeat Ragnaros within 2 months of the server opening with just 10 people. They'll come in and mop the floor with MC/Ony.
After that, there will be a lot of other little guilds and groups straggling along behind the hotshots, clearing those raids. Contrary to what you say, it will be diffifcult for some of them, for a variety of reasons. As the other raids get cleared and more and more gear becomes available, it'll get easier and easier.

Kind of like now, really.
No I did not play in vanilla. I did play on Nostalrius, though.

[potis]

Have you not played on a high-quality Blizzlike private server like Nostalrius?
The way it will happen is this: there are a few guilds who are pros at hopping around from private server to private server and clearing MC/Ony/BWL etc really fast, actually in kind of an informal competition with each other. And they do it in full 40-man style; they're doing it in full progression style and unlike what you say you can't defeat Ragnaros within 2 months of the server opening with just 10 people. They'll come in and mop the floor with MC/Ony.
After that, there will be a lot of other little guilds and groups straggling along behind the hotshots, clearing those raids. Contrary to what you say, it will be diffifcult for some of them, for a variety of reasons. As the other raids get cleared and more and more gear becomes available, it'll get easier and easier.

Kind of like now, really.
No I did not play in vanilla. I did play on Nostalrius, though.

Lol no, i never played a private server, no reason too, especially Vanilla, i consumed it all when it was relevant, for todays standard its a pile of shit.

I dont hate Vanilla but it has nothing to offer me but good for everyone that wants to play it.

But what made Vanilla, Vanilla was the lack of knowledge , not the game itself.

And because that knowledge is everywhere now and as you already said, there are a few people hopping private servers etc etc, its what i mean exactly.

No one said you cant defeat Ragnaros in 2 months, what? I lost you there.

[Enthralled]

Lol no, i never played a private server, no reason too, especially Vanilla, i consumed it all when it was relevant, for todays standard its a pile of shit.

I dont hate Vanilla but it has nothing to offer me but good for everyone that wants to play it.

But what made Vanilla, Vanilla was the lack of knowledge , not the game itself.

And because that knowledge is everywhere now and as you already said, there are a few people hopping private servers etc etc, its what i mean exactly.

No one said you cant defeat Ragnaros in 2 months, what? I lost you there.

Oh forgive me, I mixed you up with someone who said,

Molten Core will probably be 10-15manned in the first few weeks, it was balanced with almost half the raid being dead weight anyway.

Which... yeah, no. The only way that will happen will be if Blizzard goes in and nerfs the shit out of everything so that everyone can "see the content", which would be an immediate death sentence for their little project.

[Thrax]

It depends if release is Patch 1.2 (items + talents + prenerf) or 1.12.

[Hottage]

Which... yeah, no. The only way that will happen will be if Blizzard goes in and nerfs the shit out of everything so that everyone can "see the content", which would be an immediate death sentence for their little project.

Except that when my guild started it we were literally what I described, mostly blue dungeon geared with 20-25 of the players actually knowing what the fuck to do.

We even had paladins stay out of combat to be able to resurrect the failures, which made instant-death mechanics all but irrelevant.

[Hawg]

I was in a raiding guild in Vanilla that was ranked 1st for our realm (The Logical Cube - Eonar - EU). Of course memories change over time, and nostalgia kicks in, but I do not remember any of the raids being "easy."

Don't be misled by timewalking - the scaled versions of those raids are far, far easier now than they were in Vanilla.

Now I do agree the raids were less complex interms of gimmicks and mechanics. But instead of raids being difficult because of mechanics, they were difficult in terms of resource allocation (managing mana, rage, energy, consumables) and throughput (getting enough damage done to the boss and adds before your healers went oom).

Despite the lack of gimmicks, the challenge was very real. I remember some of the raids taking almost 6 months for the first world clear. Even the last raid took almost 4 months iirc. Those guys were not scrubs, they were good players. Shit was hard.

MC was released on Nov 23rd 2004, Raggi wasnt killed until April 25th 2005. People saying we'll be able to 10 or 15 man MC are smoking crack. (Assuming we have the same restrictions that were in place in the game back then.)

[Hottage]

MC was released on Nov 23rd 2004, Raggi wasnt killed until April 25th 2005. People saying we'll be able to 10 or 15 man MC are smoking crack. (Assuming we have the same restrictions that were in place in the game back then.)

Ragnaros took so long to kill because it took months to level, especially in those early days.

On my paladin I exhausted all meaningful quest content by half way to level 58 and had to literally grind 2.5 levels on slimes and bats in Eastern Plaguelands to hit cap. :-(

[Corroc]

I see addons as the biggest thing that can change the raiding experience. There wasn't any boss emotes for certain abilities. Most of the bossmods worked by counting time after certain ability was used not when the boss started. Just look at the old naxxramas raid videos on youtube. There isn't much info.

The second thing is 40 ppl in raid. When you have chain lightning abilties you need to aware where everyone is standing. Splitting healers even on all sides of the room because you cant fit 40 ppl around cthun so every healer can hit them.You also have to remember some bosses require very specific comp, first boss of mc is unkillable if you dont have enough dispells in 40 man raid.

Also people playing 24 inch monitors and 1080p will make the visibility in raids alot easier than it was.

[Kessiaan]

I've been thinking this as well.

Molten Core was hard back in the day because it was literally the first time most of us encountered mechanics beyond simple tank-and-spank. Between today's players being vastly more skilled and today's DBM being equally vastly more powerful, I expect vanilla raids to be pretty easy even if absolutely nothing changes game-wise. I'd describe at as harder than normal but easier than heroic, at least compared to Nighthold which was the last time I actually played the live version.

That's OK though. Vanilla raids were never mechanically engaging. We were just bad. People like 40-man raiding for other reasons and we shouldn't be trying to amp up the difficulty before the server even launches.