So why did they not changee Titanforging??

[HuxNeva]

For me TF is a problem and so it is for some of people i talk with. By that mere fact, i would say it is valid complaint.

See it is easy to say, that you should only raid because you want to raid, but why do you like to raid? For me, it is to see the content, but also because i like getting progression in my character. If the story was gone from a raid, i would not do the content. Just the same with the progression reward. I don't raid anymore because the progression reward is gone and i don't like that. I would love to see it come back, so i can enjoy raiding again.
Nobody in this game raids just because they want to do raiding. We each do it because of many different factors, like the people we are around, the challenge, the gear, the story, the music, the encounters or something else. I bet that you would not be raiding either if some aspects of the system was removed.


Firstly:The problem with that statement is, that it only works if i do heroic raiding just as much as i do WQs and normal raiding. I have done a shitload of WQs and i have done alot of normal raiding, but that is because it has matched my skill level and my comitment level. But now i want to go into heroic raiding, i want to increase my comitment, but because i have done all these WQs and alot of normal, the reward for going that extra mile into heroic is now gone. Sure i might have higher chance of loot upgrades in there, but overall when an item drop for me, it will be worse then what i have because i have already done alot of content, that allowed me to get that gear at a chance. So unless i am extra lucky with not only gear drop, but also its warforged/titanforge, the loot reward is not gone. So yeah, a person who does heroic 5 hours a week is gonna get better gear then a person who does normal 5 hours a week, but the problem arrives when the person who have done normal 5 hours a week now want to do heroic after 3 months.

2nd: I have been in about 10 raiding guilds in my entire life. All these guilds have had a good mix of players with each their own reason to play. The main thing that have kept them together is the hunt for loot. It is a global "wanting" for most players, to get loot, and this is also why most of these guilds worked. Remove that aspect and you suddenly have a playergroup, who dispite loving raiding and their own special neice within raiding, find it harder and harder to justify doing the content. As said before, most people don't only raid for the gear, but it helps them see a reward in doing the content and it is pretty much why we all do it. Remove the gear from raiding all together by tomorrow and you will easily see that very few players only raid because it is just fun to do so.


In the end, you are setting it up as a non-problem and yet i have shown you just why they are problems. Blizzard have set up a system quite nicely, that have worked for many years. You start out leveling up, you then go into dungeons, you go into harder dungeons and if you want better gear you go into raiding. If you want even better gear, you can go into even harder raiding and if you want even more, you can go into the hardest raiding.

Nowadays, if you want better gear, you really have differnet choice, which would normally be good if they did not require very different lvls of engagement, time investment and community interaction. Most people will take the easiest way possible when given the chance and it seems like people are finding out, that by just doing your daily WQs and a few dungeons, you can get your weekly buss from getting better gear. Because of this, fewer and fewer people find a push to go into raiding and community based content.

Is it bad, that this is happening? Not really, as the players are just doing what they prefer. But as a person who values raiding and want to do it, i really wished Blizzard did a better job of making incentives for raiding. If they don't want to do that, i would just wish they said it openly, so that i could look elsewhere for a game with a working gear system.

Your problem is timing, not TF. If you are starting HC ToS after the next patch has already dropped, then N was your progression. After 3 months, the content is stale. During the ToS patch, getting full gear that would outlevel what you got from HC ToS (915+) through WQs is a myth. Getting one piece that TF'ed from 875 to 915? Sure. Getting more than one, more than 2? Unlikely. Did you get some TF 915 gear from ToS N? Most probably, but theTF procs at the same rate in HC, so the average distance is still +15 ilvl.

[Flurryfang]

Yep, when I raided in TBC during the year long BT, we did full BT clears just for like what, 3 items? Healer trinket and warglaives, both off Illidan. And this is the ONLY demographic that should be upset about TF: people that like having BiS in every slot so that their character is "done" for the patch cycle. For everything else it's a boost.

If at any point, your raider gives the vibe "i don't want to raid because solo gives better reward", you should replace him because he's in it for the loot only anyway and is most likely just a detrimental factor in your raid that is made more visible.

None of the people, or maybe 1-2, play only for gear, but can you really blame them for wanting to have a meaningfull when they fight hard bosses? The way you are setting it up, people can only have 1 reason to do raiding. In my world, it is not so clearly black or white. Alot of players raid for alot of different reasons, but they all enjoy getting upgrades for their character, which makes it so that when their neice of raiding is not fufilled, they stay around.

Again, try to imagine Blizzard coming out with a raid which have no gear rewards and you will quickly see, that people just won't find the need to do the content, especially when they can get to see the entire content through LFR.

[Swalload]

The announcement, that no core changes are coming to the idea of Titanforging is baffling me right now. Can't Blizzard see the problems it is creating? Why aren't they atleast trying to fix it just a little a bit?


Me and a friend have used the last 2 days just talking about the problems we have encountred with TF, all from feeling no need to go into raiding when you have raiding quality gear from WQs and Argurite to having an entire raiding guild go on holiday after a normal Kil'jaeden kill because everybody did not want to do heroic mostly because their gear was already heroic difficulty quality.

We can even see alot of possible solutions to this problem, some major and even some so minute that most of the playerbase would not even notice in a bad way...... So why? Are they really so extremly happy with having low difficulty content reward high difficulty loot, that they are going to ignore the problems it brings?

So many people have 955 gear that the average ilvl on WoW currectly is 960.

Nah, everything you said is pretty much wrong. I'm not saying titanforging is a great idea, but the situation you are talking about does not exist lol. You don't get tier set in WQ, or even decent trinkets, there's no reason to not raid if you want upgrades.

I agree that titanforging is lame, but it's not hurting the game as much as you say it is.

[david0925]

None of the people, or maybe 1-2, play only for gear, but can you really blame them for wanting to have a meaningfull when they fight hard bosses? The way you are setting it up, people can only have 1 reason to do raiding. In my world, it is not so clearly black or white. Alot of players raid for alot of different reasons, but they all enjoy getting upgrades for their character, which makes it so that when their neice of raiding is not fufilled, they stay around.

Again, try to imagine Blizzard coming out with a raid which have no gear rewards and you will quickly see, that people just won't find the need to do the content, especially when they can get to see the entire content through LFR.

It's really not black and white, I agree.

The scenario you are setting up is though. You're making the assumption that there is this demographic group that raids ToS normal or below only that are decked out in argunite gear so they can find no upgrade. Does this demographic exist? Probably, considering how big the wow population is. Do they actually find no upgrade in even normal ToS because of low ilevel? not true at all.

I see the point you are trying to make from the very beginning but the examples are either greatly exaggerated or simply false. At this point your argument is that it "feels" bad.

[RoKPaNda]

Because the Titanforge problem only applies to those of us that raid Mythic. I understand that some youtube snakeoil salesmen have made it seem like it's a grander problem than that, but it's really not. Blizzard realizes this.

The problem with Titanforging comes from our own exploitative behavior in things like splitfarming. We run the raid several times and funnel gear to mains in the same period of time that normal guilds run the raid once. More drops = more chances at titanforging = we go into Mythic with a higher ilevel. Mythic needs to be tuned to account for that and that's unfair to the bottom end of the Mythic guilds. And it sucks for us because while we get that leg up on progression we also get fewer useful drops off the first bosses in Mythic. This is entirely a problem for us, not for anyone else.

Titanforging is a fun mechanic for everyone below Mythic, though there are some situations where it doesn't FEEL fun. Such as you hit the lottery and got a really nice trinket and now there are no upgrades for you for awhile. That's actually awesome for you, but it doesn't feel very fun.The frequency of high level titanforges has been vastly overstated. You've probably seen the same handful of screenshots of max level LFR/Normal TFs that I have, but you'll never see people running LFR/Normal fully decked out in Mythic level gear from Normal/Heroic. The chances of a normal/LFR item TFing to Mythic level are incredibly low. You MIGHT see them decked out from M+ though.

The proposed changes from the community are complete shit, and Blizzard saw that. Most commonly I see people suggesting that TF should cap at +10, or some other garbage that completely defeats the point of TF in the first place. That just really cries special snowflake. The better solution, and I expect we'll see something like this if they make any change at all, is to cap TF to 5~ item levels below current tier Mythic. So you can still get a fat 60 ilevel TF, but you'll fall just short of Mythic base. Mythic gear is then allowed to Warforge. The cap will obviously increase every tier. This would completely and totally alleviate all of the problems that Mythic raiders have with the system aside from the special snowflake garbage. We wouldn't feel compelled to run Heroic after we do our initial splits for tier/trinkets/etc, and we wouldn't run into the issue of getting a piece in Heroic that's better than our Mythic piece. But if you run Heroic or especially Normal/LFR you still have that chance of hitting the lottery and getting something sick.

Mythic gear being allowed to only Warforge would make it a nice bonus for us rather than "Oh, this piece didn't TF so it's garbage." - A very very small change is required that likely wouldn't even be noticable to anyone below Mythic. Nuking TF from space was never a correct answer.

I'm glad the plebs get to keep TF.

Btw the reason Heroic doesn't feel rewarding isn't TF, it's things like the relinquished tokens and the free M+ box every week.

[david0925]

So many people have 955 gear that the average ilvl on WoW currectly is 960.

Nah, everything you said is pretty much wrong. I'm not saying titanforging is a great idea, but the situation you are talking about does not exist lol. You don't get tier set in WQ, or even decent trinkets, there's no reason to not raid if you want upgrades.

I agree that titanforging is lame, but it's not hurting the game as much as you say it is.

precisely my point. I'm not arguing from a perspective that I like TF (i am neutral if not a little bit on the dislike side), but the arguments the OP used simply are greatly exaggerated or not true.

[XDurionX]

There is no "problem", TF accounts for less than 2 lvls per player. People make a mountain out of a molehill.

Don't fix what's not broken.

[Cedon]

Ion explained this very clearly... they do not want farm content to be 0% rewarding. If you're stuck on Boss #6, they want Bosses 1-5 to not be a waste of time. They're going to modify the rate and probably tighten the numbers.

[SnowTang]

TF fucking sucks. I'm sick of feeling forced to run heroic tos every week despite clearing 9/9 mythic every week just so I potentially get a lucky drop. I play a BM hunter so on top of this I still have to run heroic NH every week for tier 19 titanforges. Please fucking get rid of it.

[Deleted]

The announcement, that no core changes are coming to the idea of Titanforging is baffling me right now. Can't Blizzard see the problems it is creating? Why aren't they atleast trying to fix it just a little a bit?

because there is NOTHING broken. TF is fine as it is

Me and a friend have used the last 2 days just talking about the problems we have encountred with TF, all from feeling no need to go into raiding when you have raiding quality gear from WQs and Argurite to having an entire raiding guild go on holiday after a normal Kil'jaeden kill because everybody did not want to do heroic mostly because their gear was already heroic difficulty quality.

So? that just means your guild SUCKS and only raids for the gear....which is the problem right there.

We can even see alot of possible solutions to this problem, some major and even some so minute that most of the playerbase would not even notice in a bad way...... So why? Are they really so extremly happy with having low difficulty content reward high difficulty loot, that they are going to ignore the problems it brings?

the chance to get HIGH loot in low raids is - surprise - LOW!

[Soeroah]

I like Titanforging.

I would imagine it might be more popular, though, if they let us do something like merge two pieces of the same gear to increase the ilevel of one by a level, allowing you to manually Titanforge over time, if you're unlucky.

[Talon8669]

The announcement, that no core changes are coming to the idea of Titanforging is baffling me right now. Can't Blizzard see the problems it is creating? Why aren't they atleast trying to fix it just a little a bit?


Me and a friend have used the last 2 days just talking about the problems we have encountred with TF, all from feeling no need to go into raiding when you have raiding quality gear from WQs and Argurite to having an entire raiding guild go on holiday after a normal Kil'jaeden kill because everybody did not want to do heroic mostly because their gear was already heroic difficulty quality.

We can even see alot of possible solutions to this problem, some major and even some so minute that most of the playerbase would not even notice in a bad way...... So why? Are they really so extremly happy with having low difficulty content reward high difficulty loot, that they are going to ignore the problems it brings?

They aren't changing it because it gives incentives to run all content as even a LFR drop can TF and be better than whatever gear you currently have. It prolongs their content and doesn't put nearly as much strain on them to produce content faster and faster as people can still go back for a chance at TF. Plus as someone who has been very lucky with TF procs it does create that cool feeling and excitement when RGN rolls your way. I personally don't see the issue however....are people just butt hurt they didn't have RGN on their side when some herp derp casual did?

Try to remember this is a game and is for fun. There are other games out there that might be a better fit for you, WoW is a game now for casual players and attempts to cater to their older hard core fan base. But then again this is really the way most gaming is going, make it accessible to the most people you can and then put a little effort into keeping the hard core dedicated players happy. Blizzards model works and I don't see them changing. Not to mention a good majority like WoW the way it is. If you don't, perhaps spend less time trying to change the game and instead change the game you play. My 2 cents.

[Flurryfang]

It's really not black and white, I agree.

The scenario you are setting up is though. You're making the assumption that there is this demographic group that raids ToS normal or below only that are decked out in argunite gear so they can find no upgrade. Does this demographic exist? Probably, considering how big the wow population is. Do they actually find no upgrade in even normal ToS because of low ilevel? not true at all.

I see the point you are trying to make from the very beginning but the examples are either greatly exaggerated or simply false. At this point your argument is that it "feels" bad.

In the end, "feelings" is what this cores down to. It feels really bad to into raiding, do hard content and not get any reward for going that extra mile. That itself is not a bad argument, because this is all about how we feel with the reward that is given to us and if we find it satisfying enough to keep going from. From the experience that i am getting and from the reaction of my guildmates, it does not feel rewarding enough to keep going. And those feelings of being rewarded are important, because that is what keeps players subbed, what keep players active in their guilds and what makes them push others to engage themself more into a rewarding community. If gear had not been a reward back when i started playing, i would proberly not have sticked around to make all the enjoyable relationships i have made since then with my wonderful teammates. It took time for me to be connected to my guild, the community and the feeling of raiding in general and gear reward helped with that. After having had a hand in controlling a guild and leading a raid these last 2 expansion, i can see the change happend. The change, where gear reward for doing raiding is slowly going away and then following how hard it is to keep people around in your raidteam when they find themself being equally or more rewarded for their time farming then actually doing raiding.

[huth]

I am not at all pointing at that it is a problem for the entire playerbase, but it is really destroying the the reward structure for some players. The matter of fact, that some % of the playerbase is being completly sacrificed just so that some of the % can get a few random and undeserved gear upgrades once in a while baffles me.

There is no fact. That's your problem. All you have is your personal opinions and nothing concrete to back them up.

[MrMonstrosity]

I've been part of the raiding scene since vanilla, currently 8/9 Mythic, and I think the Titanforging/Warforging/socket system is one of the best things they've added to the game. If not for Titanforging I wouldn't be running Mythic+, Normal, Heroic, or older raid tiers if I'm really bored. I've waited so long for Blizzard to add something to do in-game outside of my raid schedule that would give me the chance to progress my character in terms of power. If you're getting unlucky with raid drops or perhaps want to get into the raiding scene you can do that by targeting and putting in the time to aquire gear. It makes all content a little more exciting and makes it potentially worthwile. I usually clear normal and heroic of the current tier each week and if not for the TF/WF system I can honeslty say I wouldn't and that is probably the same for a lot of othe people. The system allows for so much replayability and is a huge reason why there are always so many pug dungeon/raid groups forming with mixtures of playes with all types of experience. Remove the reward and watch the dungeon/raid scene dry up and then we're back to WoD. There's always something to do now, I don't miss sitting in a major city all day waiting for my raid team to log on just so I had a chance to progress my character.

Why does it matter if someone that's only done LFR is walking around with a Mythic quality ring? Those cases are rare and someone having an entire character decked out in Titanforged gear is even rarer. It's actually a pretty good system, although there could be some tiny changes to make it even better.

[epLe]

The announcement, that no core changes are coming to the idea of Titanforging is baffling me right now. Can't Blizzard see the problems it is creating?

Because it does not create any problems at all.

Me and a friend have used the last 2 days just talking about the problems we have encountred with TF, all from feeling no need to go into raiding when you have raiding quality gear from WQs and Argurite to having an entire raiding guild go on holiday after a normal Kil'jaeden kill because everybody did not want to do heroic mostly because their gear was already heroic difficulty quality.

This is just people who never should be raiding in the first place. TF is just incentive to play more, not less.

[Sylvestra]

[QUOTE=Accendor;47962084]

But participating in content does and they have that data. They do not need to ask you and make a vote, they can simply check participating in different content and make statistics with that.

You can't play legion without participating in the reward system, unless you stick to pet battles or something.

[Blackmist]

What problems does it cause?

If it chases the loot whores out of my raids, so much the better.

Sounds like it's solving a problem, if anything.

[Flurryfang]

Because the Titanforge problem only applies to those of us that raid Mythic. I understand that some youtube snakeoil salesmen have made it seem like it's a grander problem than that, but it's really not. Blizzard realizes this.

The problem with Titanforging comes from our own exploitative behavior in things like splitfarming. We run the raid several times and funnel gear to mains in the same period of time that normal guilds run the raid once. More drops = more chances at titanforging = we go into Mythic with a higher ilevel. Mythic needs to be tuned to account for that and that's unfair to the bottom end of the Mythic guilds. And it sucks for us because while we get that leg up on progression we also get fewer useful drops off the first bosses in Mythic. This is entirely a problem for us, not for anyone else.

Titanforging is a fun mechanic for everyone below Mythic, though there are some situations where it doesn't FEEL fun. Such as you hit the lottery and got a really nice trinket and now there are no upgrades for you for awhile. That's actually awesome for you, but it doesn't feel very fun.The frequency of high level titanforges has been vastly overstated. You've probably seen the same handful of screenshots of max level LFR/Normal TFs that I have, but you'll never see people running LFR/Normal fully decked out in Mythic level gear from Normal/Heroic. The chances of a normal/LFR item TFing to Mythic level are incredibly low. You MIGHT see them decked out from M+ though.

The proposed changes from the community are complete shit, and Blizzard saw that. Most commonly I see people suggesting that TF should cap at +10, or some other garbage that completely defeats the point of TF in the first place. That just really cries special snowflake. The better solution, and I expect we'll see something like this if they make any change at all, is to cap TF to 5~ item levels below current tier Mythic. So you can still get a fat 60 ilevel TF, but you'll fall just short of Mythic base. Mythic gear is then allowed to Warforge. The cap will obviously increase every tier. This would completely and totally alleviate all of the problems that Mythic raiders have with the system aside from the special snowflake garbage. We wouldn't feel compelled to run Heroic after we do our initial splits for tier/trinkets/etc, and we wouldn't run into the issue of getting a piece in Heroic that's better than our Mythic piece. But if you run Heroic or especially Normal/LFR you still have that chance of hitting the lottery and getting something sick.

Mythic gear being allowed to only Warforge would make it a nice bonus for us rather than "Oh, this piece didn't TF so it's garbage." - A very very small change is required that likely wouldn't even be noticable to anyone below Mythic. Nuking TF from space was never a correct answer.

I'm glad the plebs get to keep TF.

Btw the reason Heroic doesn't feel rewarding isn't TF, it's things like the relinquished tokens and the free M+ box every week.

I don't raid mythic and it is a problem for me....... So first statement is already away totally.

I understand that some mythic raiders find problems with titanforging because it pushes them to do old content for the chance of getting a super good trinket or tier set. I agree there is a small problem here, but it is not anything that breaks the game aslong Blizzard does not build up the mythic difficulty around these supercharged TF items.

The problems i am experience and which i see other experience is happening in casual to softcore raiding guilds. It has nothing to do with not wanting the "plebs" having good gear, but more about feeling like gear is being removed as the big reward from raiding and therefore raiding is becoming less rewarding overall.

[huth]

the chance to get HIGH loot in low raids is - surprise - LOW!

I think this is the part a lot of people have trouble understanding. The chance of getting anything even remotely useful out of the lower tier raids is vanishingly small to the point were religiously running them every ID simply isn't worth the effort.