Adding flying mounts was the worst thing Blizzard ever did with WoW

[Army Dreamer]

No it wasn't..

Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.

Couldn't say better.

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not everyone

Yes everyone.

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It means people don't want flying....

Don't fly then /shrug

[Megas Elekmatos]

No it wasn't..

Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.

Exactly this.

[Spookysheep]

No it wasn't..

Restricting flight after it was implemented, was the worst thing Blizzard ever did.

This is FACT. Flight was NEVER an issue, until blizzard made it an issue.

[SirCowdog]

Don't fly then /shrug

I wish it were that simple. I wish it was just a choice that all the ground-pounders could just make to enjoy their preferred style of play. And leave the people who like flying alone. But it's not.

The entire game in WoD and Legion has been designed for the ground. All the encounters are ground-based. All the presentation, the pacing. Just getting flying once it's done and over with is an incredible shame. It detracts from the overall experience.

People like to say that Pathfinder is a compromise, and it's true in a sense. But it's a compromise where players who want flight are getting a second rate experience. Scraps from the table. Halfassed effort. I hate that shit so fucking much! That even when I finally jump through all the hoops, I don't get an awesome, badass experience. I get to fly through an afterthought, only to have it taken away again a handful of months later. Uhg....

This is what the "Flying hurts the game" people have done. They've loaded enough people on the badwagon, and bought into the bullshit so hard, that WoW actually suffers for it. It's so short-sighted and stupid it makes my head hurt.

[Raelbo]

It's all about common sense with regards to what I've said. Don't let FBism blind you.

Lol. More like common non-sense. Don't let your hatred blind you.

Their design and intentions is plain and crude. To intentionally make things more inconvenient and time-consuming for players so that they are forced to spend more time daily doing stuff. Daily player activity and time spent ingame are factors used to gauge the state of game health and the devs' paychecks depend on it.

Clearly you have been lazy when applying critical thought to your "analysis". Yes, they want things to take some amount of time, but your assessment of their motives is asinine. It's the same principle as a chef preparing a meal that you have to chew in order to appreciate the flavour instead of simply liquidising all your food so that you can drink your meal in 10 seconds. The game experience isn't just about rushing through everything to finish up asap, it's about enjoying the journey. That is what they are trying to achieve and it's bloody obvious to anyone with even an ounce of sense (which isn't necessarily common), but I guess a tin foil hat might prohibit one's ability to see this.

Instead of enticing players to spend more time playing by providing meaningful and fun game content they are resorting to making doing stuff more inconvenient and time consuming for players with the introduction of no flying and harsh zone terrain. This is forced "immersion". Simply lazy, incompetent and despicable game design.

If your assessment of what Blizzard have produced is "lazy, incompetent and despicable game design" then I am forced to conclude that you simply lack any clue whatsoever about what it takes to engineer a quality software product of the level of complexity of a game like WoW.

Any person who knows anything about the topic understands that any development project is a compromise between brief, budget and time. If you want more content then that will mean more cost and longer development time. Their job is to find the right compromise so that people like you don't whine about a 14 month content lull between expansions. How long they make you take to complete the content is completely independent, and again, is calibrated to ensure that people like you don't whine about how little you have to do in the game because you consumed all the content in the first week.

Now, fair enough, they might not always get it right. They might make stuff too tedious to do thus detracting from the experience, but it remains important to understand the distinction between their design intent and the design outcome. Your assessment of intent is ludicrous because such an intent lacks any business case.

This idea that Blizzard simply want us to spend more time ingame because "the devs' paychecks depend on it" is retarded. Firstly your assertion of the reason is false. Their paychecks have nothing to do with how many hours a day we spend in game. It has to do entirely with whether we renew our subscription at the end of the month. The obvious way to ensure this is provide an enjoyable game experience. Just because they may have failed to provide that game experience is not a great reason to assume that was their intent.

Now, before, once again, you just ignore my argument and the reasoning behind it and just call me a fanboi (yes you can fuck off with that), I'll have you know that I back this argument in spite of my personal opposition to Blizzard's generally anti-flying stance.

[Deleted]

Luckily classic won't have flying

[lockybalboa]

Lol. More like common non-sense. Don't let your hatred blind you.



Clearly you have been lazy when applying critical thought to your "analysis". Yes, they want things to take some amount of time, but your assessment of their motives is asinine. It's the same principle as a chef preparing a meal that you have to chew in order to appreciate the flavour instead of simply liquidising all your food so that you can drink your meal in 10 seconds. The game experience isn't just about rushing through everything to finish up asap, it's about enjoying the journey. That is what they are trying to achieve and it's bloody obvious to anyone with even an ounce of sense (which isn't necessarily common), but I guess a tin foil hat might prohibit one's ability to see this.




If your assessment of what Blizzard have produced is "lazy, incompetent and despicable game design" then I am forced to conclude that you simply lack any clue whatsoever about what it takes to engineer a quality software product of the level of complexity of a game like WoW.

Any person who knows anything about the topic understands that any development project is a compromise between brief, budget and time. If you want more content then that will mean more cost and longer development time. Their job is to find the right compromise so that people like you don't whine about a 14 month content lull between expansions. How long they make you take to complete the content is completely independent, and again, is calibrated to ensure that people like you don't whine about how little you have to do in the game because you consumed all the content in the first week.

Now, fair enough, they might not always get it right. They might make stuff too tedious to do thus detracting from the experience, but it remains important to understand the distinction between their design intent and the design outcome. Your assessment of intent is ludicrous because such an intent lacks any business case.

This idea that Blizzard simply want us to spend more time ingame because "the devs' paychecks depend on it" is retarded. Firstly your assertion of the reason is false. Their paychecks have nothing to do with how many hours a day we spend in game. It has to do entirely with whether we renew our subscription at the end of the month. The obvious way to ensure this is provide an enjoyable game experience. Just because they may have failed to provide that game experience is not a great reason to assume that was their intent.

Now, before, once again, you just ignore my argument and the reasoning behind it and just call me a fanboi (yes you can fuck off with that), I'll have you know that I back this argument in spite of my personal opposition to Blizzard's generally anti-flying stance.

All i see here are your personal attacks towards me with no valid counter argument whatsoever. I gave a clear argument on how their design is terrible. But all you are doing is blindly defend the design ( it's blizzard, it's wow, the game is huge, so their design must be good, blizzard wants us to have fun, they are just misunderstood) I dont see any argument which lend credence to their design philosophy of blatantly making things more tedious for players just to prolong activity) if this is not fanboyism then i dont know what is.

If you still do not understand what i was driving at, to put it really simply, they are trying to make things more tedious for players, so that they will be forced to do things more slowly, which hides the lack of fun content that is being put out. And of course when content is being consumed less quickly, it's good for them from a business point of view. My objection is that instead of focusing on making truely fun content, they are forcing "immersion" in this manner

[Deleted]

Don't fly then /shrug

Do you realize the point of no flying is that you encounter other people because they don't get to fly either ?

[therealbowser]

Funny, posts like this never showed up until WoD when Blizzard announced that flying would be unavailable in Draenor. In fact, the opposite actually occurred. Every year people asked for Blizzard to add flying to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms, again and again. Even in Cataclysm, they asked for Silvermoon and Azure/Bloodmyst to get flying, also.

Before WoD, everyone loved flying, there were no edgy posts about how bad flying was. Suddenly now, "it's the worst thing Blizzard ever did." Yeah, that's not even remotely true. Flying is perhaps one of the most interesting and useful quality of life features they ever introduced. It really surprised me (and now kind of amuses me) how much a vocal minority of people suddenly hate flying, when you were never forced to use flying to begin with.

The only valid complaint about flying being available is that in world PvP, it can be used as an advantage over you if you wanted to use ground mounts. But now, that distinction between PvE and PvP is being removed, so even that won't matter.

This horse has been dead so long that you're basically swinging wildly at dust at this point. Time it let it go and move on.

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Do you realize the point of no flying is that you encounter other people because they don't get to fly either ?

You will run into people regardless of whether or not flying is available. Flying is just getting from point A to point B, and you're not likely to run into players during that trip anyways.

The only time where zones will be super active is during the first few months when the expansion is new, and during that time flying won't be available anyways. The trend now is that most post-launch content doesn't allow flying anyways, so the most popular area right now -- Argus, in Legion's case -- will have people on foot.

And let me tell you, Argus's landscape makes me wish I had flying every day. But I live with it, because it's a fair compromise to people who obsess over non-flying.

[druenos]

It's MMO-Champion. I can find people who think having sex with a cactus is the greatest thing ever on these boards.

Oh c'mon, you never tried cactus sex? All you need is a little prick lol

[Raelbo]

All i see here are your personal attacks towards me with no valid counter argument whatsoever.

Then you must be blind.

FYI, your entire argument has been laced with condescension from the start (eg "Don't be lame and believe the developer's stupid immersion excuse"; "Don't let FBism blind you") which is tantamount to personal attacks against everyone who doesn't agree with you.

I gave a clear argument on how their design is terrible.

Not at all. You have 1 fact: That witholding flying makes the game take longer. The rest of what you say is poorly substantiated and supported by baseless warrants like "it's common sense" and (as I mentioned) trying to ridicule anyone who says otherwise by calling them lame or fanboys

Your argument fails to provide any warrant for why your fact supports your assertion. The fact that they are purposely making the game take longer does not prove that Blizzard are intentionally making a shit experience for us so that they can get more money. Yet this is what you'd have us believe. I have demonstrated what the fact more likely indicates.

But all you are doing is blindly defend the design ( it's blizzard, it's wow, the game is huge, so their design must be good, blizzard wants us to have fun, they are just misunderstood)

Really? If this is all you can take from what I wrote, I have to question your competence at reading comprehension.

I dont see any argument which lend credence to their design philosophy of blatantly making things more tedious for players just to prolong activity

You said it in the first post I replied to "Don't be lame and believe the developer's stupid immersion excuse for no flying". There you have it, they have stated they want you to be immersed. But you refuse to believe it. Why? Because in your mind it's all about "they just want more time sinks and grinds to create a false front of player activity in order to report to their masters."

Have you any idea of how asinine that sounds? Why would any developer make a game tedious on purpose if their intention is to make more money? You don't make a successful game by purposely pissing off your customers or trying to force to players to do shit they don't enjoy. That is a surefire method of losing your customers.

If you still do not understand what i was driving at, to put it really simply, they are trying to make things more tedious for players, so that they will be forced to do things more slowly, which hides the lack of fun content that is being put out.

It's not that I don't understand what you're driving at, it's that your opinion reads more like an emotively charged conspiracy theory than a rational, logically laid out argument.

And of course when content is being consumed less quickly, it's good for them from a business point of view.

Not really. I mean, sure, it's great for them if people are spending longer on content so that they don't become bored with the game. But it doesn't help unless players are actually enjoying the game. What is far more important is that people keep coming back month after month, year after year. You don't get people who play a game for 13 years+ by purposely doing stuff to make it tedious. You do so by making it fun.

You're confusing the fact that you find their implementation tedious, with what they intended. Their intention was to make it immersive because they believe immersive == more enjoyable. It's really not that hard to understand (unless ofc you just don't want to )

My objection is that instead of focusing on making truely fun content, they are forcing "immersion" in this manner

The two things are not mutually exclusive. They can focus on making truly fun content while forcing immersion - as long as they believe that forcing immersion enhances the fun. And quite frankly, if they didn't believe this to be the case, then it doesn't make any sense that they would persist in doing so.

My annoyance is that Blizzard have this flawed belief that immersion == fun. But I have an equal annoyance at people like you who argue that immersion == tedious. The actual truth is that immersion tends to start out being fun, but becomes tedious over time.

It's not that Blizzard are wrong in the opinion about flying ruining the experience any more than you or I are wrong about flying enhancing the experience, it's about recognising that the crux of the argument lies in the timing of when flying is introduced.

So you need to stop assuming that everything you disagree with is because Blizzard are just money-grubbing douches out to ruin your gaming experience because profits, and calling everyone who disagrees with you a fanboy, and maybe try and listen to what they're saying.

[Daffan]

Flying? Lmao no it's just QoL with admittedly a small effect on the overall gameplay.

Insane Welfare and Catchup mechanics is the worst thing added to WoW. It basically invented the term content drought in WoW, which were sometimes years of boredom. Blizzard basically strangles their own content, making it trivial, obsolete and making character progression feel pointless and unrewarding, just so a few can 'feel good' for a week before getting bored again.

Flying you can deal with and mitigate on your own terms, the game playing itself - not so much.

[Deleted]

And you still have to experience virtually all new content without flying =)

Hmmmmmm

OMG another of these morons who keep iterating the lie about flying damaging experiencing of new content.

I have news for you: Except for Cataclysm, we have never had flying while leveling, where new content happens. At max level, there is repetition of the end content. Not "new content". And every raid, dungeon etc. are without flying whatsoever.

Keep lying.

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Flying? Lmao no it's just QoL with admittedly a small effect on the overall gameplay.

Insane Welfare and Catchup mechanics is the worst thing added to WoW. It basically invented the term content drought in WoW, which were sometimes years of boredom. Blizzard basically strangles their own content, making it trivial, obsolete and making character progression feel pointless and unrewarding, just so a few can 'feel good' for a week before getting bored again.

Flying you can deal with and mitigate on your own terms, the game playing itself - not so much.

It's only true for the tiny faction of the player base which plays exclusively one character and will never ever create an alt. For people who are playing multiple characters, these things only make life easier and enable this playstyle. Playing multiple characters is also a big reason for people staying while others leave during the so-called "content droughts". You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

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[SNIP] You're confusing the fact that you find their implementation tedious, with what they intended. Their intention was to make it immersive because they believe immersive == more enjoyable. It's really not that hard to understand (unless ofc you just don't want to )

The two things are not mutually exclusive. They can focus on making truly fun content while forcing immersion - as long as they believe that forcing immersion enhances the fun. And quite frankly, if they didn't believe this to be the case, then it doesn't make any sense that they would persist in doing so.

My annoyance is that Blizzard have this flawed belief that immersion == fun. But I have an equal annoyance at people like you who argue that immersion == tedious. The actual truth is that immersion tends to start out being fun, but becomes tedious over time.

It's not that Blizzard are wrong in the opinion about flying ruining the experience any more than you or I are wrong about flying enhancing the experience, it's about recognising that the crux of the argument lies in the timing of when flying is introduced. [SNIP]

This is true. Just compare it to our real world: We also had an age where all people have been walking on foot everywhere. Then people tamed beasts to ride on their backs and to pull carriages. People have used all kinds of boats. Then came automobiles, trains and flying vehicles. The development in WoW just mirrors our techonological advances, with the exception that we don't have personal flying vehicles yet - but many people in the High Society do, and our heroes are corresponding to the High Society in our world.

So, for immersion's sake it's crucial that we keep flying. I get the reasoning that you first need to explore and secure an area before you can safely fly there. This should usually happen during the leveling phase. And when we finish leveling, the area should be explored and secured via leveling quests, and we should be able to fly again.

They already have counterbalanced the reduced time in farming materials with flying by increasing the amount of materials needed for crafting, and have even gone overboard with random stats, so you technically have to farm multiple amounts of the needed materials if you want to target a specific piece of gear with defined secondaries, and let's not forget that the only cost-efficient patterns are with 3 stars, if you craft below that, you even have to farm more. There is your tediousness in crafting. With farming reputation, they already have the daily gating solution, so here flying does not much to "break" the process.

They already have solutions to neutralise the time-saving aspect of flying in the game. If they then restrict flying, then things take much longer to complete, and when you only have a couple of hours to play on an evening, things turn out to be very dissatisfying.

[munchimunchi]

Troll thread delete

[Flurryfang]

I don't think it is the worst thing Blizzard have ever implemented in the game. It is a nice feature and it brings alot of movement to the player.


...But! I do think that Blizzard thinks it is the worst thing they have implemented xD Since Cata, they have been regretting giving the players wings and have tried to work arond it ever since. If they could change it, they would proberly not have implemented it back in TBC and just giving the players some other form of quick movement instead.

[Raakel]

NO, it wasn't...

[lockybalboa]

Then you must be blind.

FYI, your entire argument has been laced with condescension from the start (eg "Don't be lame and believe the developer's stupid immersion excuse"; "Don't let FBism blind you") which is tantamount to personal attacks against everyone who doesn't agree with you.



Not at all. You have 1 fact: That witholding flying makes the game take longer. The rest of what you say is poorly substantiated and supported by baseless warrants like "it's common sense" and (as I mentioned) trying to ridicule anyone who says otherwise by calling them lame or fanboys

Your argument fails to provide any warrant for why your fact supports your assertion. The fact that they are purposely making the game take longer does not prove that Blizzard are intentionally making a shit experience for us so that they can get more money. Yet this is what you'd have us believe. I have demonstrated what the fact more likely indicates.



Really? If this is all you can take from what I wrote, I have to question your competence at reading comprehension.



You said it in the first post I replied to "Don't be lame and believe the developer's stupid immersion excuse for no flying". There you have it, they have stated they want you to be immersed. But you refuse to believe it. Why? Because in your mind it's all about "they just want more time sinks and grinds to create a false front of player activity in order to report to their masters."

Have you any idea of how asinine that sounds? Why would any developer make a game tedious on purpose if their intention is to make more money? You don't make a successful game by purposely pissing off your customers or trying to force to players to do shit they don't enjoy. That is a surefire method of losing your customers.



It's not that I don't understand what you're driving at, it's that your opinion reads more like an emotively charged conspiracy theory than a rational, logically laid out argument.



Not really. I mean, sure, it's great for them if people are spending longer on content so that they don't become bored with the game. But it doesn't help unless players are actually enjoying the game. What is far more important is that people keep coming back month after month, year after year. You don't get people who play a game for 13 years+ by purposely doing stuff to make it tedious. You do so by making it fun.

You're confusing the fact that you find their implementation tedious, with what they intended. Their intention was to make it immersive because they believe immersive == more enjoyable. It's really not that hard to understand (unless ofc you just don't want to )



The two things are not mutually exclusive. They can focus on making truly fun content while forcing immersion - as long as they believe that forcing immersion enhances the fun. And quite frankly, if they didn't believe this to be the case, then it doesn't make any sense that they would persist in doing so.

My annoyance is that Blizzard have this flawed belief that immersion == fun. But I have an equal annoyance at people like you who argue that immersion == tedious. The actual truth is that immersion tends to start out being fun, but becomes tedious over time.

It's not that Blizzard are wrong in the opinion about flying ruining the experience any more than you or I are wrong about flying enhancing the experience, it's about recognising that the crux of the argument lies in the timing of when flying is introduced.

So you need to stop assuming that everything you disagree with is because Blizzard are just money-grubbing douches out to ruin your gaming experience because profits, and calling everyone who disagrees with you a fanboy, and maybe try and listen to what they're saying.

What I'm saying is that their idea of "immersion" is not what the immersion that most people want. Remember what they've said about "you think you do, but you don't?" That's exactly the mentality of the the devs these days: they like to force their idea of fun down our throats. And just because we are a fan of Blizzard doesn't mean that we should grovel at their every decision and hail them as saints who are perfectly and single-mindedly devoted to creating a fun experience for all. A decade ago that might be the case but this is not the Blizzard of old already. They have quotas to meet and shareholders to answer to.

[Maudib]

Trolling on the issues of flight, PvP, grinding, etc... is so passe.

Now that Classic has been announced, no one cares about any of that crap. OP should focus on Classic trolling... but even that is of no consequence. In game he'll be branded a troll and no one will help him kill Hogger.

[Corroc]

Insane Welfare and Catchup mechanics is the worst thing added to WoW. It basically invented the term content drought in WoW, which were sometimes years of boredom.

care to elaborate?

[Raelbo]

What I'm saying is that their idea of "immersion" is not what the immersion that most people want. Remember what they've said about "you think you do, but you don't?" That's exactly the mentality of the the devs these days: they like to force their idea of fun down our throats.

I agree, but without the hostility. Figuring out what will work best for people vs what they say they want is an art-form. Any company that gives their customers exactly what those customers say they want is likely to produce a lot of failed projects. I am not saying that companies should avoid asking customers for their opinions, but they do need to apply astute judgement when deciding what to implement.

Also, with a game like WoW you have to remember that there are, literally, millions of opinions on what will work best, many of which directly contradict each other. Blizzard didn't just pull this idea that flying is bad for the game out of their asses, there is a significant amount of vocal support from the community for the removal of flying.

Saying that they just "force their idea of fun down our throats" is a really immature, lazy and counter-productive response.

And just because we are a fan of Blizzard doesn't mean that we should grovel at their every decision and hail them as saints who are perfectly and single-mindedly devoted to creating a fun experience for all.

And just because I happen to disagree with you, doesn't mean you should assume that's what I'm doing....

A decade ago that might be the case but this is not the Blizzard of old already. They have quotas to meet and shareholders to answer to.

WoW has to make a solid business case to be a viable concern. And yes, that is going to constrain their ability to give us everything we want all the time. However a key element to the success of WoW is keeping players happy, which means providing us with an enjoyable gaming experience. Blizzard are well aware of this (and if they weren't, they would have failed as a business a long time ago), so it stands to reason that design decisions will generally try to maximise the customer experience, because that is the key to them making more money.

I am not naively pretending that they ignore money concerns when making decisions, I am refuting your claim that making the game more tedious helps them in that regard. Their desire for profit will result in a better game experience for us because a better game experience for us means higher retention rates.