Are Horde players satisfied with their racial leaders and their (lack) of evolution?

[Nathreim]

What they did to Vol'jin was criminal.

Same thing for Sylvanas she should never have been Warchief I like her but its just not her to lead the entire Horde.

But most of all the lack of Horde story in Legion was completely unforgivable 4 Horde races have major reasons to want to fight the Legion (Orc, Blood Elf, Forsaken, and Troll) and we saw NOTHING. No excuse for that.

[Felixon]

Saurfang: He's the Warchief we deserve, he NEEDS to be put in the spotlight more.
Urn: Great character 10/10.
Sylvanas: She has no place being Warchief and is stifling the Forsaken by stealing any attention the story may give them. The Forsaken feel more like her pets than an actual race, they should be led by one of their own. She should take a page out of Thrall's book and go it alone.
The rest: They're decent, I assume. We never get to see them do anything.


I've always found it strange that the blood elves broke an alliance that had lasted thousands of years simply because one high ranking military officer was mean to them. Kael'thas really should have just told Garithos to piss off.

Well,it's stated,that they wanted to rejoin the Alliance,but the kaldorei were against it.If before the blood elves,back then high elves,were members of the Alliance,which consisted of humans,dwarves and gnomes,when they applied anew,night elves already were a part of the Alliance.And considering the fact,that kaldorei and high elves had "history",with latter being banished from the lands of kaldorei and establishing the Quel'thalas,their relationships are bitter even these days,so they will never join the Alliance - at least,as long as the kaldorei are a part of it.

[llubtoille]

I would probably still be playing if npc leaders would take a backseat.
They can go topple thrones all they like in the background, just don't make me watch/participate.

[Flurryfang]

Hi. I'll preface this with the fact that I am an alliance player. But I'd like to hear some opinions from the Horde side.

Obviously this is just my own opinion, but I feel like Blizzard has neglected and destroyed horde racial leaders.


Thrall is green Jesus and is out of the game, precisely for those reasons.

Varok Saurfang is quite ok, but he hasn't really seen any character development: Honorable, tough old orc.

Vol'jin is dead and... Well,that's it. Not even someone to replace him yet.

Baine is recolor of his father.

Lor'Themar just hasn't been a part of much (I might be wrong of course...).

Sylvanas is the one that has changed the most, in all the wrong (or good, depending on how you look at it of course) ways.

The goblin and Pandaren leaders are just... Well. Forgettable?

Zul'jin, Garrosh, Kael'thas, Kargath, Rend as instance bosses.


What do you guys think?

What makes you think this is unique to the Horde?

This is just a thing with Blizzard and characters. They are so afraid of changing their core characters, that they actually just leave them be and let them go stale.

As you have pointed out, no1 outside of Sylvanas is actually not doing anything inside the Horde and the things that are happening in the game have no impact on their character, since they don't react to them. But the same thing is happening with the Alliance aswell. Eventhough Tyrande and Malfurion had a part to play in Legion, they have not changed or evolved as characters through that event. They are still the same and are plainly just boring right now. I would have though the entire Nightborne event might have changed the viewpoint of either the Night Elfs or the Blood Elfs, but it seems like they are just gonna leave it be.


Overall, Blizzard are great at creating characters, but suck at maintaining them and evolving them. They waste away good characters in stupid ways and they let great characters be so inactive, that people forget them and lose their good relationship with them. I will proberly never forgive Blizzard for shoveing Wrathion under the rug, when he was a character they could have build an entire expansion around or maybe even a new game. As said before, they are so afraid that their ever-lasting characters will be disliked, that they instead of giving them exposure, just let them die of starvation instead.

[Kayb]

I think the majority of all the leaders on both sides are lacking story focus severely. But for Horde specifically...

Gallywix might as well not even exist, he hasn't anything since the goblin starter zone as far as I recall. Whatever happens in books is irrelevant IMO. If you don't see them doing stuff in game they might as well not be there.

Baine has had only a little bit.

Thrall was over done, and a cooling off period was required, but I look forward to him coming back.

Saurfang hasn't done a huge amount since a that bit in WotLK.

Lorthemar and Sylvanas have had pretty good development. I could have taken or left Lorthemar, but after MoP I rather like him.

Greatly annoyed they did nothing with Vol'Jin as Warchief.

I usually don't even remember the name of the Pandaren, on either faction. They became irrelevant beyond their starter zone.

[Koryn123]

I think the majority of all the leaders on both sides are lacking story focus severely. But for Horde specifically...

Gallywix might as well not even exist, he hasn't anything since the goblin starter zone as far as I recall. Whatever happens in books is irrelevant IMO. If you don't see them doing stuff in game they might as well not be there.

Baine has had only a little bit.

Thrall was over done, and a cooling off period was required, but I look forward to him coming back.

Saurfang hasn't done a huge amount since a that bit in WotLK.

Lorthemar and Sylvanas have had pretty good development. I could have taken or left Lorthemar, but after MoP I rather like him.

Greatly annoyed they did nothing with Vol'Jin as Warchief.

I usually don't even remember the name of the Pandaren, on either faction. They became irrelevant beyond their starter zone.

Well, JI, that's rude! *smacks knee*

[Kayb]

Yeah, that's the guy. I was nearly gonna look him up to write his name in my post but he's so non existent I couldn't be bothered.

[Heldamon]

The Horde have no leaders, the Horde is da family!

[ls-]

I'm NOT satisfied... Legion was awful in term of Horde development and excuses they gave us were... Argh!

It's really annoying that Blizzard don't like developing characters in game because according to them it takes away from expansion's story, well, unless char's development is and important part of an expansion, for instance, Thalyssra & Co, but even then they often suck, Yrel and other "important" WoD characters...

So they tend to do it in books which not so many people read that cover stories that happen between expansions or some important, but classified events that happened during expansion which for some reason weren't shown in game.

They really should opt for more interactive stuff for story telling and char development, they could release remastered War3 and use it as a platform for "chapters" like SC2's Nova Covert Ops. People will also get more involved w/ characters because they'll be playing them and not just watching them doing their own thing or reading about it.

[Deleted]

blizzard has lost his touch in terms of char development since mists of pandaria, the story of wow consantly lack a true development or evolution.
it's only a matter of someone going apeshit and doing unreasonable big bad stuff.
there is almost no politic involved, no conspiracies.
it's just a matter of some mind clouded leaders yelling "warwarwar" because they don't know any other word.

[Verazh]

Albeit to be fair, the Alliance's own problem is that it went from being, well, an Alliance to a whole bunch of humans plus whoever the humans bring along that day. Velen is the only non-human leader to get significant development in quite some time.

I cannot get over the fact that this boy king is the new leader of the Alliance, which already consist of legendary ancient beings such as Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion, and to a minor extent the dwarven council. It just feels so weird and forced.

[Phunkle]

Reading through this thread makes me realize just how bad the lore is suffering from being told in an MMO.

If Warcraft would have been continued as a singleplayer franchise, I'm sure modern Alliance and Horde would look completely different.

There are so many characters that don't get nearly as much screen time as they deserve. Every race is boiling down to one representative, with the rest of the people being nameless figures.

[Rhlor]

They should be the one with the council, warchief is our thing goddamnit.

Besides there is no way the highest-ranking military officer should be freaking Anduin lol.

in the alliance they all obey the king of stormwind because it is the most powerful state of the alliance and more now that darnassus is destroyed there is no other nation that can be compared in power and resources to stormwind, genn says my king !!
the alliance is mainly the humans of stormworm and their allies. the horde is more multicultural there is no main state that leads the horde all its members are
equally important.
I think that after so many problems with the warchief what the horde needs is to go another way so that the same thing will not happen again

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Rokhan Development

He does his thing in WC3.

Was present in Cycle of Hatred, a novel set between WC3:TFT and Vanilla WoW. Nothing major, just warned Thrall of reinforcements to Northwatch Hold on the border between the human and orc territories.

In WotLK, he was present at a small camp named Dragon's Fall in Dragonblight, where he failed to kill a frostwyrm with his dragon hunters' help. The player and their allies kill it for him. A minor quest over and done with quickly.

In WoD, he sends the player in Blasted Lands to rescue some Horde prisoners from Iron Horde executioners. He also sent a goblin to scout the Dark Portal, and you go finish the job. Then he says the Iron Horde is bad and have to be stopped. Later, he gives you your scout quests in your Garrison.

In Legion, he represents the Darkspear tribe at the PvP Prestige Rank 2 quest in Undercity.


Hardly enough development to be a leader. And troll tribes are like monarchies, the son takes over when the father dies, and Vol'jin has a son called Yenniku (deceased in Cata), who is described as his "youngest" son, meaning he has older sons offscreen, along with his offscreen wife mentioned in Shadows of the Horde. Yenniku is fully grown at the time we see him, so that means his other sons are perfectly mature enough to take over leadership of the tribe.


He's not nearly on the level of the other WC3 heroes. Not even his fellow playable characters of the WC3 campaign he's found in. He had a bigger role than Chen Stormstout did in it, who was basically just "hey, try this brew, oh you don't like it? Huh, needs something else I guess, I'll run around with you now". But since WC3, Rexxar continued wandering around in Kalimdor, still doing his thing he always did. Rokhan was never seen until WotLK, when he had the most minor of roles. Then Rexxar had his thing in Burning Crusade, helping out with his old village in Outland. Then in the pre-Cataclysm event, he was in Orgrimmar, defending the city from rogue elements. A minor role, but cool. Then he's doing stuff with the Hunter order hall in Legion.

And Chen had a lot of development in MoP, arguably more than either of his fellows, and is now at the Monk order hall in Legion.


Rokhan only sits as the Darkspear representative in the PvP prestige rank 2 quest because he's literally the only notable Darkspear character Blizzard already had lying around that had the largest amount of people who would recognize his name. Not because of any so-called development. If Vol'jin's sons aren't in charge, then technically it should be the chief witch doctor of the tribe, Master Gadrin, the lowly level 12 questgiver in Sen'jin Village.

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Alliance constantly puts tradition and wishful thinking before reality (see the high elves being sticks in the mud while the Blood Elves killed animals for nourishment like everyone else in the world every day for breakfast, lunch, and dinner). By all accounts, Muradin should be the leader of the Alliance after Varian, as he has the most clout with Khaz Modan, Stormwind, the gnomes, and I'm sure the night elves and draenei don't mind him. Genn probably has less popularity among the people, but everyone loves Muradin. He has experience leading in both domestic and military matters, having been king of the Frost Dwarves in Storm Peaks for years, and being a prince of Ironforge for so long, and now being leader of the Bronzebeards.

Velen shouldn't be the leader, he's best suited as an advisor.

Tyrande is a hack and can't do anything right, so she's out too.

Malfurion doesn't lift a finger to do anything unless it directly affects Tyrande. He couldn't care less about his people. See his pardoning Illidan for killing 4 villages of Night Elves because he saved Tyrande, and then see his sitting back and doing nothing while the Horde rampaged through Ashenvale in Cataclysm, then having the gall to lecture Leyara about not giving in to hatred when her child daughter was murdered by the Horde because of his apathetic attitude toward their advancement into Night Elf territory. Malfurion is all for giving into hatred when its HIS feelings that are hurt, immediately sentencing Illidan to death when he thought Tyrande was dead in WC3, then immediately forgiving Illidan's slaughter of 4 villages and tons of Watchers when it turned out that wasn't true and Illidan helped save her.

Genn has military experience, but I don't feel he has the popularity or charisma with the rest of the Alliance for them to follow him.

Anduin is a child. In peacetime, an inexperienced ruler with good advisors is fine, or at least having him attend strictly to domestic matters would be okay. But in times of war, they need someone strong at the helm, and strong and experienced Anduin is not.


Muradin is the only one with the popularity and experience in all aspects of leadership to fill the role.

rokhan has more development in WoW than gallywix

[Sigxy]

The Horde have no leaders, the Horde is da family!

I guess that makes sense... Blizzard puts in races that I personally don't agree with should be in the Horde, but you know the saying: "You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family."

[Rhlor]

Many people are quite certain that Thallysra and Co will become a part of the Horde.I think,that only some fraction of the nightborne will join the Horde,while Thallysra,Oculeth,Valtrois will remain neutral and focus their efforts on rebuilding the Suramar.

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Tbh,Lor'themar wouldn't be a bad "warchief".Since the stereotype,that warchiefs should be orcs is long gone and currently a reanimated elf chick is leading the Horde,another elf taking her place wouldn't that bad.I really liked his bickering with Jaina on the Isle of Thunder.Besides,considering,that the Horde playerbase nowadays for 70% consists of the blood elves,it's "classic" races becoming the minorities...When you join the bg,you really are getting a feeling,that the conflict actually is between the humans and the blood elves,not the Alliance and the Horde.

in the demo of the blizzcon baine says that he is negotiating with mayla and lady liadrin and lorthemar are negotiating with thalyssra, therefore thalyssra and mayla are going to be leaders of the horde.
The playable Nightborne crest features the dusk lily as one of the main elements, no doubt added after Thalyssra's rise to power.

[TrueHorde]

[Felixon]

in the demo of the blizzcon baine says that he is negotiating with mayla and lady liadrin and lorthemar are negotiating with thalyssra, therefore thalyssra and mayla are going to be leaders of the horde.
The playable Nightborne crest features the dusk lily as one of the main elements, no doubt added after Thalyssra's rise to power.

That's actually upsetting.Oh well...

[Maljinwo]

in the alliance they all obey the king of stormwind because it is the most powerful state of the alliance and more now that darnassus is destroyed there is no other nation that can be compared in power and resources to stormwind, genn says my king !!

I'd argue that Ironforge is easily comparable to Stormwind

[Zulkhan]

Ji Firepaw Is he even a part of the horde anymore? After the events of Siege it seemed like he left with Aysa and we haven't really heard much from him since.

He seems to still be part of the Horde. Quite absurd but nonetheless true. He (alongside Aysa for the Alliance) presents itself as Horde representative during the whole bullshit trial in Pandaria.

Also right before Vol'jin nominates Sylvanvas, in-game you can see Ji among the Horde leaders speaking about old grudges and how these will stir shit up or something.

But honestly, both he and Aysa are still where they are mostly because of gameplay reasons. Blizzard added the accursed Pandaren as playable race to both factions, there's no way they can turn back from that decision (even though they would definitely love to do that).

Why didn't Jorin Deadeye take a more active role in the Horde following the Horde's campaign in Outland?

Why did Blizzard kill Dranosh over Varok (Killing sons to develop elderly fathers is a bad habit for Blizzard. They did the same thing with Greymane)

These have been absolutely critical points in my book. Jorin is the son of a fucking legend among the Horde and should have received similar if not equal development to the one Garrosh received, even more so once Garrosh was set up for an Arthas-like descent to darkness. Why wasting so much time over one character you intend to turn into an antagonist while leaving no legacy beyond that? They killed even fucking Nazgrim, for Christ's sake, possibly the best developed Orc character in recent times. After MoP, the Orcs lost any worthy young representation and either Thrall or a couple of old farts are leading them to nowhere.

That, of course, leads to the second point. Killing Genn's son (I don't even remember his bloody name) to develop Genn himself has been a bad choice but at least they did/are doing something with that choice (which remains a bad one but whatever). What about Saurfang though? Dranosh was set up beautifully during the Wrath Gate cinematic and even post-mortem was considered an orc of blooming potential. Yet he got uncerimoniously killed, leaving a grieving, old Varok doing the grieving father for years in Northrend, only to come back in MoP and from that moment on playing the...sort-of-wise orc? (who occasionaly tries to kill himself)? He's little more than a role model you never know when he's going to die by an heart attack. He's a relic. An inspiring relic but a relic nonetheless. He should be an advisor covering positions regarding military strategy and experienced counsel, he shouldn't be the main face of the Orcs. Yet, the only alternative left is Thrall. The Orc known for being raised by Humans, vouching for peace and diplomacy and being a world savior in his free time. More than ever, he doesn't fit the image of your average Orc in the slightest, despite being relatively young. And this entire argument, even though it played out differently, applies to Trolls as well. The main issues are the same.

Blizzard loves to keep their lore and story "fluid" but in that way, said story is built on whimsical and rash decisions preventing a proper form of solidly long-term planning when it comes to character's introduction/development. So they stick to a few established figures and abuse them to death, it's the equivalent of playing "safe" with names you get the lowest chances of screwing things up, even though is the lore as a whole suffering from that approach eventually.

[Rhlor]

I'd argue that Ironforge is easily comparable to Stormwind

I do not think the power of humans extends everywhere, the dwarves needed the help of varyan to defeat the ice troll in MoP

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He seems to still be part of the Horde. Quite absurd but nonetheless true. He (alongside Aysa for the Alliance) presents itself as Horde representative during the whole bullshit trial in Pandaria.

Also right before Vol'jin nominates Sylvanvas, in-game you can see Ji among the Horde leaders speaking about old grudges and how these will stir shit up or something.

But honestly, both he and Aysa are still where they are mostly because of gameplay reasons. Blizzard added the accursed Pandaren as playable race to both factions, there's no way they can turn back from that decision (even though they would definitely love to do that).




These have been absolutely critical points in my book. Jorin is the son of a fucking legend among the Horde and should have received similar if not equal development to the one Garrosh received, even more so once Garrosh was set up for an Arthas-like descent to darkness. Why wasting so much time over one character you intend to turn into an antagonist while leaving no legacy beyond that? They killed even fucking Nazgrim, for Christ's sake, possibly the best developed Orc character in recent times. After MoP, the Orcs lost any worthy young representation and either Thrall or a couple of old farts are leading them to nowhere.

That, of course, leads to the second point. Killing Genn's son (I don't even remember his bloody name) to develop Genn himself has been a bad choice but at least they did/are doing something with that choice (which remains a bad one but whatever). What about Saurfang though? Dranosh was set up beautifully during the Wrath Gate cinematic and even post-mortem was considered an orc of blooming potential. Yet he got uncerimoniously killed, leaving a grieving, old Varok doing the grieving father for years in Northrend, only to come back in MoP and from that moment on playing the...sort-of-wise orc? (who occasionaly tries to kill himself)? He's little more than a role model you never know when he's going to die by an heart attack. He's a relic. An inspiring relic but a relic nonetheless. He should be an advisor covering positions regarding military strategy and experienced counsel, he shouldn't be the main face of the Orcs. Yet, the only alternative left is Thrall. The Orc known for being raised by Humans, vouching for peace and diplomacy and being a world savior in his free time. More than ever, he doesn't fit the image of your average Orc in the slightest, despite being relatively young. And this entire argument, even though it played out differently, applies to Trolls as well. The main issues are the same.

Blizzard loves to keep their lore and story "fluid" but in that way, said story is built on whimsical and rash decisions preventing a proper form of solidly long-term planning when it comes to character's introduction/development. So they stick to a few established figures and abuse them to death, it's the equivalent of playing "safe" with names you get the lowest chances of screwing things up, even though is the lore as a whole suffering from that approach eventually.

if one day mag'har orc are an allied race (they have to be) Jorin is the only candidate to be the racial leader I know that Geyah is the leader but she is already very old we need someone young