Was Arthas that much worse a person than Illidan (spoilers)

[Florena]

in the end arthas did get redemption, you could see as he was dying and was in his fathers arms, you could see everything that happened really wasnt him, it was the corruption of the crown and Frostmourne that drove him mad and turned him the way he went,

he didnt mean for it all to happen like that, he despised the scourge yet under the influence embraced and empowered it.

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

"I see...only darkness...before me..."

And then Sylvannas sees him in void hell. No I don't think Arthas got any redemption.

[omeomorfismo]

Arthas was already sacrificing his people even before he turned into undead. Muradien apparently died when Arthas pulled the Frostmourne from its resting place, but Arthas has shown no reaction or remorse from that. He destroyed half of Silvermoon and decimated the elves before turning undead. As far as we know, he only turned 'undead' when he removed his own frozen heart.

As for Bolvar, if it was true, he wouldn't sacrifice himself to the helmet if he was bitter and jaded. In fact, we see him in sound mind after we kill the Lich King.

The most logical explanation is that helmet does have an influence and does corrupt the mind of the wearer.

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We see him in sound mind after we kill the Lich King. Also, "thousand of voices in his head"?

probably because some weeks of torture <<<< years as LK

anyway as lich king you have mind controlled all scourge, so as they listen him the opposite is true

[DeicideUH]

Arthas sacrificed his men, left Muradin to die, murdered his father, led the Scourge against his own homeland, killed countless people, spread undeath, destroyed the elf Kingdom, persecuted fleeing refugees, among many other atrocities. He had commited heinous crimes, and that was before he turned into the Lich King.

As destructive and misguided as Illidan may have been, he never sunk to the depths of depravity and evil of Arthas. There's no comparison.

[Qualia]

Arthas was already sacrificing his people even before he turned into undead. Muradien apparently died when Arthas pulled the Frostmourne from its resting place, but Arthas has shown no reaction or remorse from that. He destroyed half of Silvermoon and decimated the elves before turning undead. As far as we know, he only turned 'undead' when he removed his own frozen heart.

Not really. Arthas turned undead way before he removed his heart. Frostmourne took his soul - there is a reason he was called a Death Knight and not a Live Knight during WC Campaign. Not to mention that Arthas was already showing his immoral side way before that, with killing his own mercenary, soldiers and shrinking ships to prevent them from going back. Those weren't "sacrificing", just murdering, and out of his own will. Blizzard even flat out called Paladin Arthas - the living one - evil.

As for Bolvar, if it was true, he wouldn't sacrifice himself to the helmet if he was bitter and jaded. In fact, we see him in sound mind after we kill the Lich King.

It has been years since then. People's mental degrades over time, especially when subjected to what is more or less torture on both mind and body. Being continuously burned inside and having to listen to thousands of voices in his head doesn't help you keeping your former morals. And yes, when you wear the Helm of Domination and become Lich King, you get to enjoy the voice of all Undead you control, that means all of the Scourge in Northrend.

[Ielenia]

probably because some weeks of torture <<<< years as LK

anyway as lich king you have mind controlled all scourge, so as they listen him the opposite is true

Not really. It could be a one-way communication.

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Not really. Arthas turned undead way before he removed his heart. Frostmourne took his soul - there is a reason he was called a Death Knight and not a Live Knight during WC Campaign.

That's a pretty weak argument, considering "death knight" could just mean a title to someone who is known to sow death in their wake. Besides, it's death knight, not dead knight.

Not to mention that Arthas was already showing his immoral side way before that, with killing his own mercenary, soldiers and shrinking ships to prevent them from going back. Those weren't "sacrificing", just murdering, and out of his own will. Blizzard even flat out called Paladin Arthas - the living one - evil.

While killing his own mercenaries was, indeed, 'evil', the sinking of the ships wasn't intentional murder. It wasn't even murder at all. He did that to stop his troops from leaving Northrend before his campaign was done, since Uther had convinced his father to call back the troops.

It has been years since then. People's mental degrades over time, especially when subjected to what is more or less torture on both mind and body. Being continuously burned inside and having to listen to thousands of voices in his head doesn't help you keeping your former morals. And yes, when you wear the Helm of Domination and become Lich King, you get to enjoy the voice of all Undead you control, that means all of the Scourge in Northrend.

Can you hear the voices of the undead? As far as I recall, there's nothing saying you can. I could be wrong, though.

[omeomorfismo]

Not really. It could be a one-way communication.

but it isnt.
is specifically said in the book and i think even in the games that the helm give you immense telepathic power to control the undeads but listening their tormented screams

[Anjerith]

It's sad that I believe this could actually happen.
Knowing Blizzard we will fight against Illidan using a resurrected Arthas

Christ you people have really retarded views on Blizzards writing. Totally unjustified and based off red shirt guy 1upping someone who had fingers in FAR more pots than RSG could ever imagine at the time he was asked the question.


I welcome *any* of you to go write even a 30 page short story and get it published (by a company, not a personal blog). Lets see how far you get. Never mind world building -- which is something I doubt a single percentage of you could do.

Not a Blizzard fan, so don't go that route of bashing me. I am a fan of Writing. And 20 years of consecutive storytelling in one world is going to have hiccups. Fans have the finished product but never have access to the work in progress in most cases. Stuff like an ongoing world where the players DO get access to the WiP is something you should feel blessed to be able to be a part of. Very few artists would let an audience watch them meander through thousands of ideas in order to reach That One that resonates.

[Qualia]

That's a pretty weak argument, considering "death knight" could just mean a title to someone who is known to sow death in their wake. Besides, it's death knight, not dead knight.

The novel "Rise of the Lich King" also described him as an Undead, with Arthas himself realized that he straddles between the world of the dead and living, and that he was "alive" even after he was dead when Frostmourne took his soul: "He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion, but the Lich King’s soft whispers were calling him death knight, and the leeching of color from his hair and skin and eyes seemed to indicate that it was more than a title" and "With Frostmourne gripped tightly in his hand and the Lich King’s powers surging through his dead- notdead body, he knew that Gavinrad did not stand a chance". That's an Undead there.

Can you hear the voices of the undead? As far as I recall, there's nothing saying you can. I could be wrong, though.

In the "Lich King" comic, Arthas mentioned that he had "heard the thought" of Trag since the beginning. While I do admit, now that I think about it, it doesn't imply said ability is a passive / always active, but then - would Lich King bother tracking a specific Undead tauren to know that he was coming to him?

[Wramp]

Arthas sacrificed his men, left Muradin to die, murdered his father, led the Scourge against his own homeland, killed countless people, spread undeath, destroyed the elf Kingdom, persecuted fleeing refugees, among many other atrocities. He had commited heinous crimes, and that was before he turned into the Lich King.

As destructive and misguided as Illidan may have been, he never sunk to the depths of depravity and evil of Arthas. There's no comparison.

best summation so far, saved me a paragraph or two ( i tend to be wordy), and to add, Illidan's SOLE purpose has always been to destroy the Legion and its influence so I believe this allows him redemption as a Savior of Azeroth. Arthas had basically no redeeming qualities, only fleeting moments of 'humanity'

[Zensunni]

The diffrence betwen illidan and arthas is that illidan always was anti-hero who pushed the border of anti-heroism further and further as story went.
Arthas started as hero (for a very short moment) turned into anti-hero about halfway through human campaign and was full blown villain in the end of it.

Arthas was a classic perversion of Lawful Good arc, Illidan is just Chaotic Good pure and simple - willing to break any rules in order to accomplish what he sees as 'good'. They're really quite different, with quite different ethical developments.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Arthas is a story of the road to hell is paved in good intentions. Illidan was pretty much a story of an individual with power seeking behavior being given the opportunity to do so in the middle of several major crises situations. Arthas failed himself in the end which ultimately lead to him failing the people around him. Illidan failed those around him and then ultimately failed himself. But Illidan got a twist because he got a redemption story. Arthas just got wacked (so far, I mean who knows with how blizzard writes shit..).

[Kpmk]

It's sad that I believe this could actually happen.
Knowing Blizzard we will fight against Illidan using a resurrected Arthas

Lol stop..

[Zyky]

Illidan spent most of his life roped in villainy under the belief he was doing the right thing, and while his fate might seem nightmarish, it's actually what he'd want and Illidan seems to ultimately ends up as a true hero and savior of Azeroth. Even if in-universe characters don't like to outwardly admit it, he's totally redeemed himself and got the recognition he's always wanted.

Arthas was supposed to be a hero but also ended up a villain. Unlike Illidan, though, he had no redemption arc or anything like that (a memorable quest in Icecrown taunts and savagely crushes the very notion of this), dies the horrible villain he was since becoming the LK, and suffers a fate worse than death for all eternity and no one remembers him for anything but his evil.

It's just weird how Arthas and Illidan's journeys ended up, and I'm wondering if Arthas was such a worse person than Stormrage he deserved what he got.

The difference is Illidan didn't actively attack his past allies, Illidan didn't invade Azeroth and when you think about it, it was us who started everything with him in BC. Granted Blizzard storytelling was nonexistent in Vanilla/BC, but Illidan didn't even start anything with us, the only situation that I can think of is when Kael'thas ordered his blood elves to march on Shattrath, which was basically confirmed later that Illidan had nothing to do with that order, just KT swapping sides.

[Kpmk]

1: He was never redeemed
2: He was never mindcontrolled, if anything he was in total control.

Total control in the way that he was completely insane and had no self control.

[Ielenia]

The novel "Rise of the Lich King" also described him as an Undead, with Arthas himself realized that he straddles between the world of the dead and living, and that he was "alive" even after he was dead when Frostmourne took his soul: "He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion, but the Lich King’s soft whispers were calling him death knight, and the leeching of color from his hair and skin and eyes seemed to indicate that it was more than a title" and "With Frostmourne gripped tightly in his hand and the Lich King’s powers surging through his dead- notdead body, he knew that Gavinrad did not stand a chance". That's an Undead there.

I admit, it does seem he's undead, but it's not wholly conclusive proof. I mean, the draining of color from his skin and hair could be just, in a sense, "cosmetic". I mean, it's not really much different than what happens to necromancers. I mean, the line you quoted seems to be left purposely vague: "seemed to indicate", for example.

In the "Lich King" comic, Arthas mentioned that he had "heard the thought" of Trag since the beginning. While I do admit, now that I think about it, it doesn't imply said ability is a passive / always active, but then - would Lich King bother tracking a specific Undead tauren to know that he was coming to him?

Gotcha. But, on the other hand, if he's constantly hearing all the voices... how did he perceive Trag's 'voice' in particular?

[Jastall]

The diffrence betwen illidan and arthas is that illidan always was anti-hero who pushed the border of anti-heroism further and further as story went.
Arthas started as hero (for a very short moment) turned into anti-hero about halfway through human campaign and was full blown villain in the end of it.

Well apart from his stint in BC where Illidank was indeed a villain, until Legion retconned it all at least.

But it's clear that Arthas was completely lost as soon as the Undead campaign in WC3. Whatever Illidan's faults, pre or post retcons, he never purposefully attacked and destroyed the lands of his people.

[Ielenia]

Arthas is a story of the road to hell is paved in good intentions. Illidan was pretty much a story of an individual with power seeking behavior being given the opportunity to do so in the middle of several major crises situations.

Um... I'm pretty sure you switched the names, there. Illidan's story was about "the road to hell is paved in good intentions". From the get-go, Illidan's goal was one: to destroy the Legion. And to attain that goal he would not allow any obstacle be in his way.

Arthas may have started with good intentions, deciding to purge Stratholme instead of letting them suffer the curse of undeath-- which, to be honest, he was all too quick to reach, and didn't show much more than token remorse for it-- but after that, his entire campaign was to just kill one single demon, and to that he was willing ot sacrifice everyone around him. Muradin, Arthas' long-standing friend, apparently died and he didn't even bat an eye, for Pete's sake!

Arthas failed himself in the end which ultimately lead to him failing the people around him. Illidan failed those around him and then ultimately failed himself. But Illidan got a twist because he got a redemption story. Arthas just got wacked (so far, I mean who knows with how blizzard writes shit..).

In the end? Arthas "failed himself" the moment he decided his revenge against Mal'Ganis took precedence over the lives and well-being of his troops. Which was.. kind of around in the middle.

[Tiwack]

Illidan didn't stay dead... Wouldn't write off Arthas or Garrosh just yet..

[Raziella]

Turning into an Undead makes you hate the living, and Bolvar's experience was more than enough to make anyone bitter and jaded.

And there is a big different between having your mind muddled by turning into undead and being mind controlled. Arthas, even after become Lich King, had always been in full control of himself.

More likely being raised as Undead either makes you a mindless, flesh eating zombie (as in most of the Scourge) and incapable of an emotion like hate, or in the case of sentient Undead makes you hate *yourself* enough that envy of the living causes murderous rage or enough disdain that the value of "life" is completely nil.
It doesn't just flip a switch in your head that makes you hate the "other side" automatically.

Blizzard making Bolvar's sacrifice completely meaningless bums me out. I never bought the idea that there "always must be a Lich King" fully anyways, and even if we needed someone to control the remaining Scourge until they could be eradicated more fully, clearly we're doing a piss poor job of finishing that effort.
If one of the world's most noble paladins can be corrupted that quickly, it was clearly a terrible idea in the first place.

Bolvar as suddenly Arthas 2.0 pissed me off to no end.

[therealstegblob]

It's hard to really compare Arthas and Illidan since they're both- waaait for it... Badly written characters.

Arthas is basically generically lawful-good up until he goes nanners with the Stratholme purge. At this point, Arthas is now morally grey but the sudden drasticness of his actions are really badly explained. Sure, he wants to purge Stratholme in a bid to contain the plague from spreading, killing infected and innocent people (a very good example of moral greyness despite Arthas' sudden drasticness- pay attention, WoW players), but what exactly made him resort so quickly to such a dire decision? I mean, we can assume he loves his Kingdom so much and he feels he has to 'step up' and make a 'kingly' decision even if it's hard, but even if we assume that much, what makes Arthas continue acting the way he does?

He suddenly gets on this huge revenge-boner even though he's never been expressed to be that type of person before, and due to his lust for revenge, Arthas takes more and more morally-dark turns. A descent into moral blackness isn't bad or anything, but it's so sudden and badly fleshed out in WC3. This would be forgivable, but Blizzard has done a piss poor job of going back to properly flesh out Arthas' fall from good. Even the novel by Christie Golden didn't do much except novelize the events of WC3, which isn't helpful.

Illidan on the other hand is just a horribly mismanaged character who makes no fucking sense and is retconned on a whim to do whatever the current writers want him to do. Is he a power-hungry lowkey selfish quasi-villain? Is he a deranged madman in the depths of insanity? Is a he a misunderstood hero? Is he a straight up golden boy mary sue anti-hero?

People freak out and lose their shit whenever Thrall takes a poop, just because Thrall is voiced by one of the guys behind all of the original Warcraft story. But when Illidan is being ten times worse than Thrall ever was, no one seems to realize it.

Not that I'm overtly angered by Illidan or anything (I don't mind his presence in Legion's story), but if you want to talk objectively, he's an awful character.