Is Firearms Ownership in the US becoming a Cult?

[Masark]

I think they are actually in the significant minority of gun owners though. They are definitely loud, and politically they are probably heard the most, but most of the people I talk to at Gun ranges, and stores are normal, rational people that don't obsess over their guns. Gun owners are incredibly common in the US, 46% of rural residents reported owning guns (The number is probably higher, I know a lot of people that lie when asked that question for studies) and almost a third of urban residents do as well. It is certainly not a cult for most of them.

But there is a fraction that own a severely disproportionate amount of guns.





That averages out to 17 guns each for that 3%.

[Ghostpanther]

But there is a fraction that own a severely disproportionate amount of guns.





That averages out to 17 guns each for that 3%.

And? You do know there are collectors who own several times that of knifes, daggers and swords. They call it a hobby. I am not sure why this type of stat even matters.

[Dystemper]

But there is a fraction that own a severely disproportionate amount of guns.





That averages out to 17 guns each for that 3%.

There are over 100 million gun owners in the USA probably higher. That's not 3%

[LaserChild9]

Because it's hardwired into our constitutional rights and we can. Needs don't matter. It's a fundamental right. That's all that matters. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

You still didn't answer the question, why do you need it? Just because it is in your constitution does mean it is right or necessary. All these fringe groups only exist in the US because your constitution allows them to preach hate under free speech, they aren't as prevalent elsewhere because there are laws restricting hate speech.

Not in the case of an attack or intruder in the house. Other times would be based on the circumstances, hence options.

So basically, "fuck justice, who needs a legal system while I have a gun". Your low regard for due process (another amendment to your constitutuion) is troubling especially considering how much of a gun nut you seem to be.

We've had guns since we kicked your people out of our country. Also...you live on an island. It's much easier to prevent firearms from coming into an island than a country as large as the states which has expansive borders with other countries. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself because you can't comprehend. It's ok though. You live on an island and obviously have limited resources to teach you comprehension skills. Go back to high school, learn to read, and get back to me.

My people? Lol. You think Americans just popped into existence 1775? They were your people too. So then how do you explain Europe? Don't get me wrong, there is still gun crime, but nowhere near US levels and Europe shares a border with these middle eastern countries you keep banging on about.
We might have limited resources for education but in the majority of articles on global education the UK is always higher than the US, maybe the sound of gunfire distracts the students? Who knows...

That's a poor deflection. I'm comparing death tallies. Keep reaching.

It's not a poor deflection at all, you were comparing a weapon to a utility machine. Most people don't aim to kill or injure someone when they get in their car but when you buy a gun, the whole purpose is to hurt someone, more so when you draw it, do you understand that difference?

That first part is just a really dumb statement. I feel like I'm talking to a child...and it is part of your name. I don't need the right to bear arms. I have the right to bear arms and I exercise that right because I can. I also don't care if you think my explanation of our situation are excuses and blame. If you can't accept that, when I literally spelled it out for you, then you have no business asking why we need this or that, because you only want answers that fall in line with your thinking. I can't help a mind locked in a lead box.

Whats dumb is giving violent people weapons. But this is the point isn't it, you admit you dont need it, you want it because you have it... I could understand the right to bear arms if there were packs of wolves and other dangerous animals roaming the streets of New York or some other danger that required it, but in the civilised world there is no need for it. You call me a child but you are like a redneck child who refuses to understand that want does not equal necessity. Your country is dangerous because people like you stick to some paranoid belief that you need to be armed to be safe which is exactly what the op is asking about, its like you are part of a cult, your beliefs are fanatical and you can't accept that gun crime is so high because of the 2nd amendment.

[Unhinged]

Because a gun is a force multiplier tool. Because the right to keep and bear arms is the foundation of our nation. We are not Europe. We don't want to be Europe. We fought for our independence from Europe.

You have no idea how massive our nation is. Many if our states have more people then some Euro countries. Don't forgst your countries were founded by gun and force. Your countries have a habit of turning on Thier people , and committing horrendous atrocities against them. We need our guns as a counter to a government turning tyrannical. The Federalist papers explain all this. We as Americans prefer not to be ruled by monarchs or get rounded up and put into camps for ethnic cleansing

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Ask your selves , why do the Euro governments don't trust Thier own people with firearms ? Why do they want you weak and easily subjugated?

Excpet on nearly every metric those countires are better to live in?

[Dystemper]

Excpet on nearly every metric those countires are better to live in?

Then fucking live there and don't come here. Simple. So what if every so often some European country decides to ethnically cleanse it's population or invade it's neighbors. We could pull all our military bases out but those Euro countries should have a shit fit. Next time Germany decides to expand or some other tun pot tyrant takes over a country, don't come to us begging to do something

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Not shocking this thread turned into Eurotrash bashing America

infracted - trolling

[Ghostpanther]

Then fucking live there and don't come here. Simple. So what if every so often some European country decides to ethnically cleanse it's population or invade it's neighbors. We could pull all our military bases out but those Euro countries should have a shit fit. Next time Germany decides to expand or some other tun pot tyrant takes over a country, don't come to us begging to do something

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Not shocking this thread turned into Eurotrash bashing America

Anything about the right for us to possess and carry firearms will be attacked by them. Not all, some posters from Europe wish they had that right and others, such as Switzerland endorse it. And I do not think all countries in Europe are as harsh as some when it comes to possession of firearms. But no matter, their opinion about any of the rights we have here in the US, does not mean shit.

[Dystemper]

They like to make it out that we are like some third world country. The fact is considering the size of our population the percentages are very small. They say things like the Constitution is out dated. Yet in many Euro countries you can be fined or arrested for what you say. That's not really freedom to me.

[a1derful1]

You still didn't answer the question, why do you need it? Just because it is in your constitution does mean it is right or necessary.

There are 29 pages to this thread now, and god knows how many more gun threads in this forum, with a variety of people giving their reasons. If you aren't happy with the answers, I'm sorry they don't fit in your narrow box of acceptance. That's not my problem.

All these fringe groups only exist in the US because your constitution allows them to preach hate under free speech, they aren't as prevalent elsewhere because there are laws restricting hate speech.

That's their right and, as a veteran, I had no problem defending their right to free speech, regardless of how vile I may find it. As long as they don't threaten someone or cause violence, they can speak of their hatred all they want. The problem is that when they do get violent, spineless politicians don't act (meaning local or state government], as those people make up their voter base, and we are constantly reminded of that when Antifa and BLM wreak havoc.

So basically, "fuck justice, who needs a legal system while I have a gun". Your low regard for due process (another amendment to your constitutuion) is troubling especially considering how much of a gun nut you seem to be.

The legal system in on my side. Try again.

Might be an interesting read for ya, since you're limited on that island of yours. The first incident written about is pretty messed up since it's based on something illegal to begin with, but I'm fine with the rest.

http://nation.time.com/2013/06/13/wh...kill-in-texas/

My people? Lol. You think Americans just popped into existence 1775? They were your people too.

They became their own people and got rid of yours.

So then how do you explain Europe? Don't get me wrong, there is still gun crime, but nowhere near US levels and Europe shares a border with these middle eastern countries you keep banging on about.

Keep letting them in. That'll change. A few sporadic gun outbursts and vehicular massacres are only the warning shots of what's to come. I'll take a border with Mexico any day.

We might have limited resources for education but in the majority of articles on global education the UK is always higher than the US, maybe the sound of gunfire distracts the students? Who knows...

Only during deer season because someone just shot dinner.

It's not a poor deflection at all, you were comparing a weapon to a utility machine. Most people don't aim to kill or injure someone when they get in their car but when you buy a gun, the whole purpose is to hurt someone, more so when you draw it, do you understand that difference?

Statistics don't care that you don't like the comparison. The sole purpose of a gun is not to hurt someone, but that's generally what someone that doesn't know anything about them would say.

Whats dumb is giving violent people weapons.

Guns, in the hands of our forefathers, won our independence and helped to found the superpower of today that our country is.

But this is the point isn't it, you admit you dont need it, you want it because you have it...

If that's what you took from what I said....lol...ok. Your batting average with comprehension is sub par.

I could understand the right to bear arms if there were packs of wolves and other dangerous animals roaming the streets of New York or some other danger that required it, but in the civilised world there is no need for it.

Really? There's no danger in New York? Ok...lol...and Chicago is Disney Land.

And your "civilized world" is getting regular reminders to the contrary, as people only seek your death and societal upending flood these "civilized" borders. An unarmed populous is a much easier target.

You call me a child but you are like a redneck child who refuses to understand that want does not equal necessity.

And you're too thick to understand that as an American citizen we don't require a want or need, as it's a right, guaranteed to us by the Constitution. Everything else doesn't matter. Feelings and stats don't matter. Your perception of what a "civilized world" should look like doesn't matter. All that does matter is that our right to firearms is written into our founding documents and that base right will never change.

Your country is dangerous because people like you stick to some paranoid belief that you need to be armed to be safe which is exactly what the op is asking about, its like you are part of a cult, your beliefs are fanatical and you can't accept that gun crime is so high because of the 2nd amendment.

It's funny to see you say I'm a part of something when you obviously don't even know what a cult is. If you think that I'm a fanatic, you really need to hop on a raft and see the world.

[LaserChild9]

even if only half the gun owners in the USA were to make a stand, thats over 50 million people. Who is going to operate those drones and tanks since the military is volunteer?

Pretty sure the military is a paid organisation with rules against desertion... That's like the exact opposite of voluntary, and you had the audacity to question my education!

Then fucking live there and don't come here. Simple. So what if every so often some European country decides to ethnically cleanse it's population or invade it's neighbors. We could pull all our military bases out but those Euro countries should have a shit fit. Next time Germany decides to expand or some other tun pot tyrant takes over a country, don't come to us begging to do something

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Not shocking this thread turned into Eurotrash bashing America

Who is bashing America? I see people debating a stupid law and the consequences of said law on US citizens but the only person nation bashing is you, and not a single nation but a whole continent.

[Dystemper]

Pretty sure the military is a paid organisation with rules against desertion... That's like the exact opposite of voluntary, and you had the audacity to question my education!


Who is bashing America? I see people debating a stupid law and the consequences of said law on US citizens but the only person nation bashing is you, and not a single nation but a whole continent.

My God you level of ignorance is over 9000! We don't conscript our military. We don't force our citizens to join. They volunteer. You think the entirety of our military would side with a tyrannical govt, you must think we are like other Euro countries . Great Britain has it's own problems as does the rest of Europe and it's getting ready to get much much worse and before long you will be wishing you had a 2a. Enjoy your acid attacks, Glasgow grins and trying to walk down a sidewalk and every movement and word you say picked up by more CCTV cameras per person then any place else in the world.

[A dot Ham]

There is really no need for them to. You're missing the point. Cults are often viewed as centered around a leader; however, movements that some have called cults continue after their leaders have passed. Growing up, I recall the NRA as much more of a sporting enthusiasts lobby. Today, I see the NRA as a group that has found their gravy train -- they appear to distort statistics to make firearms seem more necessary than they are, and more effective than they are. Simply being able to cite huge gun ownership numbers gives them more influence as a lobby. I notice that the WikiHow page on identifying cults includes the following:


Source: https://www.wikihow.com/Recognise-a-Cult

You are free to hold whatever opinion you want on how I view the two fears I mentioned. This is a discussion and I have no particular interest in convincing you (and no, that isn't the same as expecting an echo chamber). For my part, as I've said I think the statistics have been distorted to create fear that pushes people to act in a certain way. For my part, one of the articles that struck me and got me thinking about this question was this one: https://sciencearticles.org/subject/...attached-guns/



Skipping to the end:


I find that last part particularly striking. Other places have economic worries and crime, how have Americans come to have what this study describes as almost a religious belief in their guns?


As for your groupthink comments, I seem to be having a civil conversation with @10thMountainMan, so you're reaching. You mentioned thesis defense, so perhaps you fancy yourself a sharp student or academic. You aren't going to impress me, so feel free to dial it down.



Thanks. Sadly, not yet. Beijing is stuck in the middle of a struggle over real estate fueled by several factors. Long story made short, her shop was on the edge of a market that was tying up land that would be worth a lot more if it were apartments. There was an act of arson down the way from her that was used to get the whole block demolished. Instead of a leisurely summer trip to Hunan to get registered, things turned into a frantic search for a new location for her business, followed by lots of work getting the new location running. She has been successful, but between the last minute customers, book keeping, and clean up -- it is rare for her to be able to make it home before 2300. As you can see from that picture, we got back together in the Spring, with flowers everywhere. We might manage it over the Spring Festival holiday, but Spring would be nice.

@10thMountainMan Thanks! Nice points made in a reasonable tone. I'm about to set off for the subway, so I'll have to put off any more detailed response.

You really didn't address any of my points, instead you resort to rationalizing points I already addressed to obfuscate rather than clarify your position.

I maintain my original position that this is a thread about gun control. Why? Because you have no interest in really discussing cult/cult like behavior at all. You keep running back to why people buy guns, and the statistics surrounding that purchase. That has NOTHING to do with cults. You also refuse to recognize any other reasons for gun ownership other than a way to deal with this "fear" or threat.

There is also a monumental difference between cult and culture...

I glanced at your conversation with @10thMountainMan and you aren't having a discussion about the topic at all. You're having an anecdotal conversation about both your experience and his experience with guns. What does that have to do with gun owners being a cult? If anything those 2 examples should start to make you reconsider your original point as they, again, don't seem to fit the build.

Also my points on leadership are 100% relevant. The authority passed down from original founders, to existing and current leaders is constant. Those leaders (in a cult) and their message are seen as infallible, unquestionable. How do you suppose the members of this gun cult receive this "message" without knowing who their leaders are, and really what that message is? You're really reaching...

Lastly, I did say that you AREN'T defending a thesis... which means the strict adherence to specific guidelines and peer scrutiny. That doesn't however give you a pass on what is required from you to engage in a discussion/debate on topic. A person should be able to defend a position/claim and explain the "why" behind it. If you can't why bother make the claim at all? Furthermore, opinions CAN be wrong. I don't know where you guys picked up this bullshit idea that its okay (particularly when having a discussion) that you can just think what you want out of pure stubbornness, and not have your preconceived ideas challenged. If you do... for the love of god STOP trying to have "discussions" with people. If you fancy yourself the least bit intellectual you should be able to consider that opinions do AND SHOULD change especially in the face of compelling, contradictory information. You however are convinced that is so by a handful of (shaky at best) correlations between the two.

Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?

No there are not.

But again, that's really not the conversation you were looking to have.

[Thekri]

But there is a fraction that own a severely disproportionate amount of guns.





That averages out to 17 guns each for that 3%.

I don't see how that disproved what I said at all. They are not the majority, as your graph clearly shows. I know an awful lot of people that own 10 or more guns, including me and most of my male relatives. We are rational, reasonable people that are in favor of common sense controls to stop gun violence, we are in favor of background checks, strict standards for licensing, regulating the gun industry and sales practices, and in general ensuring that violent and dangerous people do not get access to guns. We also like guns, so we tend to own a fair number of them.

[shadowmouse]

But again, that's really not the conversation you were looking to have.

No, gun control is the conversation *you* want to have and your analysis is tainted by that. I think you've demonstrated your bias quite adequately by continually trying to claim that I'm saying something I'm not. I notice I seem to be able to link sources to support and explain my positions, while you limit yourself to trying to nitpick. Since you're just soap boxing and sticking your fingers in your ears, I see little point in humoring you further. Good day.

[A dot Ham]

No, gun control is the conversation *you* want to have and your analysis is tainted by that. I think you've demonstrated your bias quite adequately by continually trying to claim that I'm saying something I'm not. I notice I seem to be able to link sources to support and explain my positions, while you limit yourself to trying to nitpick. Since you're just soap boxing and sticking your fingers in your ears, I see little point in humoring you further. Good day.

Let me flip through these posts and find the number of times you have addressed the irrelevance of this "fear" and needing guns for protection, and how other countries have similar statistics regarding crime, and yet have little or no need for guns. You're absolutely right, you've never come right out and said it... but the implication is there. Americans don't need guns. You add insult to injury by incorrectly labeling gun owners as a cult giving a negative connotation gun owners, and essentially giving no credence to their positions at all, because of course that's what a member of a cult would do or say, absolving you of any responsibility of having to address them or their concerns. Its quite literally no different than democrats labeling republicans as fascists, or racists. The purpose is to shut down conversation.

I see right through your bullshit. Gimme a second I'll quote you each and every time over the last 30 pages, you strayed from having a conversation about cults and how they are related to gun owners, and talked about gun control instead.

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The First Amendment guarantees things like the right to freely assemble and that Congress shall not make laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and yet that doesn't mean there are no cults.




I'll say that your questions about dating that tied to friends involved with Scientology were part of what had "cult" floating around in my thoughts at the same time I was wondering about some of the gun ownership comments I see.

A fair enough extrapolation, and politely phrased, but I'd feel on pretty firm ground to say that's not it. Simply referring to the dictionary gives us the use of a word, but there are things beyond the scope of a dictionary. Look at listings of a cult's characteristics, they go beyond simply having a charismatic leader. I'd say that's probably one of the weaker associations, things that I find more troubling include that intangible threat -- you have to belong, you have to be part of the group, there are bad things out there, if you didnn't have a gun (weren't part of the group) the bad thing would get you. There is loyal and disloyal speech, scroll through this and other threads where guns are discussed.

As I said, I feel on pretty firm ground that simply being in China hasn't converted me to believe *guns* are a sinister threat. I don't read Chinese so my news sources are primarily American and British. I don't speak Chinese, so I tend to watch American TV shows. There are a good number of expats here, so I associate with and talk to a wide range of people from all over the world, and by the way find them asking me what the hell is up with the US and guns. I do, however, love the image your mention of sex brings up: <woman engaged in cowgirl position with bungee> <bungee takes a moment to ask an important question> "By the way, as long as I have this opportunity, what do you think about gun ownership?". No, I'm old, but we find other ways to amuse ourselves.



Yep, got windows, I've used them for years despite detesting Microsoft. Lots of other people here have windows too, but in nearly 20 years I haven't found I needed a gun, and I never needed one in the US.

1) So, why is gun ownership the go to solution? Was he home during those break ins? Probably not if I recall statistics I've looked up for other threads. It would seem not since you didn't mention anything beyond a break in. In that case, how would gun ownership have prevented either break in?

2) Why is it on him to fix the problem? Crime is a social problem. Let's say he feels owning a gun might lead to others thinking his house is a less easy target. Let's call the guy breaking in "George". George might just hate your dad and come in to piss on the carpet. When the house is empty, the gun is not a watch dog or alarm, or even locking shutters. George is still free to walk in and piss on the carpet. If George is looking for things he can use or sell, and the gun works to keep him away from your father's house, George is still a problem -- he's just someone else's problem. Why not try to figure out what the root of the problem is and address that? Why shouldn't the community take steps like improved lighting and patrolling? To repeat myself, why is it somehow on him to buy a gun?



Correct. I'm currently on the 21st floor of a new complex, I've lived in other places that were generally second to fifth floor. Some older residents do have bars, usually as part of a structure that builds out and provides a window box. The one common element they've always had though, is that there is an active night watchman, usually several, who will walk (nowadays cruise on his electric scooter) around the complex. There are also small police substations around, a small building that's staffed with a couple of police at a time, that would facilitate a rapid response to something like a break in.



Not meaning to single you out, I'm just catching up on the night's posts and yours is the first good example of these factors that I've noticed. This doesn't strike you as perhaps a bit over the top? You carry a knife all the time, even at home. You have multiple hidden guns around the house as Plan A. You have multiple large bladed weapons as Plan B. What has generated this level of unease in your life that makes you think you need all that?



Objection, counsel. You're better trained than that, produce a proper argument. What are the characteristics of a cult? I've mentioned several that bother me in this context such as the nebulous threat that always might be present and will get you if you don't have that gun. The Sharon Tate murders happened, and perhaps they fed some of this, but the statistics I find don't seem to support the level of fear I feel like I'm reading.

Dated, but I've comment before that my research options are limited: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf



Interesting, care to quote where I said that in the OP? It looks to me like I started the thread with a specific comment both indicating I wasn't interested in making this a gun control thread, and asking that that part of the discussion go to <drumroll> the gun control thread:


Where in that post have I even implied that there should be gun control?

Since you've fired the first shot though, yes, your obsessive derails do feed into the reason I asked my question. Cults need members, the NRA needs people to fear, it needs people to seek a vigilante solution to a problem rather than seeking a social solution. That fear builds sales, it also feeds their strength as a lobby. You can't even be assed to read what is plainly written, you write to play a role for a narrative. Happy now?



While I don't entirely disagree with you, that doesn't account for the level of fear that needs a person to constantly carry (possibly with a backup) or to have multiple guns hidden around the house, even when the statistics I can find seem to show that having a gun in the house brings increased risks including escalation of a confrontation, deadlier attempts if suicide is attempted, and some number of accidental shootings -- and yet the FBI statistics seem to show that the feared event (assault during a break in) is unlikely to happen (break ins tend to be when the owner isn't home and left a path for entry) or unlikely to happen as imagined (in home assaults are more likely to be by someone you know).

In bold is the only time you actually refer to the original topic. Hang on... not done.

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Somewhat on point, although like any study there will be questions about whether it really tells the tale neutrally: http://www.newsweek.com/white-men-fi...y-study-723586



Let's not make this a race thread either.

Stirring the fire huh? How do you suppose posting an article with a title like "WHITE MEN FEEL STRICTER GUN LAWS ARE ATTACKS ON THEIR MASCULINITY, STUDY SAYS" is going to keep this racially neutral?

Also what does that have to do with Cults?

Looks like the article is talking about gun control laws... so much for wanting to stay on topic and not make this about gun control.

Still not done...

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Needed for what though?

Guns in the house? Fine, I get that some people like to collect, to hunt, or to shoot for sports. I get that there are situations, like living in the countryside next to a railroad and having to deal with the people that are playing hobo. But beyond that? Look at @a1derful1 On one hand, he says someone breaking into his home would steal guns, so he keeps them spread out. OK. But in the same paragraph he also specifies that he keeps them hidden around the house for ease of access, while he later talks about having a daughter in the home. Easy access + kid isn't a particularly good formula: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/par...7dbab186b2564c



Me? I'd want to keep my kid safe. Hiding guns around for easy of access sounds like she is going to be able to get one and it will be loaded. The impulsive character of child suicide means there may not be a lot of warning signs that would let them get help first. This isn't a guy living out in the middle of nowhere, this is a guy who says he has three dogs (granted they could be dachshunds), an extensive alarm system, and gets fast response from the police. If that isn't stemming from an unspecified fear, and I would assert that his setup is a pretty clear indicator that it does, then I'd say it starts veering towards an obsession that starts to go towards that cult like behavior I'm concerned about.

Guns being carried? "They do so because they like having guns around in general, and would rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it." Wait, what? It's a gun, not a kitten. Again, if it has gotten to the point that somehow a loaded weapon has been reduced to the adult version of a pacifier, that strikes me as an obsession. Need it for what? What is this ever present boogie man that is going to get an American, but seems to be missing in much of the rest of the world?

No, just the newest trend to act edgy and try to trigger people.

More of you attacking the necessity for guns. Or rather perceived need.

Bold: Straight from the horses mouth... as I suspected all along.

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Could be, but it doesn't sound like it from my read:



That sound like an activity for a child more so than one for a sixteen year old.



Based on what? Your standing assertion is that most gun owners are responsible. We can derive from that that most/many gun owners have tried to teach their kids gun safety. That fails to address a dangerous point from that study. I haven't even bothered to address accidental discharges, I stuck to suicide. Suicide is not a gun safety problem, it is rather by definition a deliberate act. The statistics don't look good, and suicide rates among kids seem to be rising. Look at the last, bolded line I quoted referencing that study (study is linked in the article):


Impulsive. Ten minutes or less deliberation. That's not a training issue.

So is this: https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/...70616_1400.pdf


I'm sure they were trained, I certainly was.

As a follow up: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...they-use-guns/

More of you talking about how guns kill people. Please show me where you addressed cults, or attempted to redirect this to the original topic?

More to come hang on...

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@Ghostpanther You're very obviously deflecting. It is also pretty obvious you don't really read things and just parrot a set of talking points.

1) Children in that study were in a household with gun owners. Trying to eyewash that away is disingenuous. You pick out one line of a quote, and completely fail to address why I even noted that.

2) Now go back and address the points I made instead of trying to do a magician's pass and say "look over there, Japan!" Those veterans weren't from the Japanese defense force, they were American veterans. Who died. By suicide. With a gun.

Here's a further look at guns and suicide: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun...ss-statistics/


Further down:




Thanks for saving me the comment.

Guns, vets, and suicide... I'm not seeing the connection with cult behavior.

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Translation: Bad things happen to other people, it wouldn't happen to me. Well, except for maybe someone might get past three dogs, a decent security system, and overlapping coverage from my neighbors. That could happen to me so I am OK with raising the danger to my daughter.

/facepalm

I would guess your cousin grew up in a similar way to you, and a way similar to what you propose for raising your daughter. May you never have to revisit a similar tragedy, but I hope you'll think about the implications. Suicide is impulsive. There may not be warning signs that you can catch in time. She won't be two forever.

Again no connection to cults or cult like behavior. The only people you feel like addressing and having a conversation with have nothing to do with cults. The one person that actually addresses you on it... and you want to dismiss... how convenient.

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It's a mixed bag for me supertony. Many, quite possibly most, won't be a problem for me ... until at some point they are.

The guy in the Las Vegas shooting doesn't seem to have shown strong signs that one day he was going to do what he eventually did, but having a stockpile of arms did become a problem for others when something in his thinking went wrong.

Legally held firearms get stolen, after that they may well become my problem.

Similarly, concealed or hell even open carry weapons aren't a problem, until somebody screws up and Floridaman shoots somebody in the leg. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...discharge.html)

None of those things happen every day, so in the US there is (in my perception) a tendency to discount the risks as just part of a normal day. Outside of the US, no, it isn't part of a normal day in many places.

Contrary to people who keep trying to pigeon hole me into what fits their bugaboo, I'm not trying to bring up gun control here. I'm addressing that difference in thought. Fear is used to get people to accept things. That's also part of a cult's characteristics, hence (in combination with some other elements) why I wonder if we're edging towards a cult mentality. Where is the real threat, that is present in the US, but not in those other countries, that puts the need to go armed as a higher priority than dangers such as suicide?

If there is such a danger, why aren't we trying to identify and solve it? Someone earlier in the thread proposed that the NRA changed directions in the 70s and went from a hunting/sporting lobby to what it is today. If the dangers are more of a monster under the bed than a real fear (and if guns have simply been made into a symbol for swagger), perhaps it is time to dial things back. Hunt, plink, go to the range, shoot skeet, but you don't need your gun to eat breakfast.

"bungee, you probably won't get shot by some dumbass dropping his every day carry in a Cracker Barrel" just doesn't cheer me up that much. In that context, I feel I have a reason to care because as observed in Thin Blue Line -- it's my ass on the line.



Lots of whatabouts in that post. What about if I live on a farm? Well, the risks equal (dangers of living on a farm)+(dangers of having a firearm present). I was a Liberal Arts major so my math may be off, but to me it looks like whichever way you slice that the firearms upped the risk.

As for your whatabout for other means of suicide, that was addressed in one of those articles I just linked:

Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun...ss-statistics/

More talks about suicide and mental illness (classic gun control topics)

References to specific tragedies and loss of life...

Ya this is totally NOT about gun control...

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It really would help if you stop trying to put words into my mouth. Suicide is a problem. Firearms are a tool. They do not cause the suicide, nor did I say anything that someone actually bothering to read would take to mean that. Access to firearms does, however, give a suicidal person acting on impulse (I've linked things indicating it is often impulse for adults and children alike) a way to kill themselves efficiently.



And I disagree. Japan's problems are Japan's. I haven't asked a question about Japan, I've asked a question about America. Americans are, overwhelmingly, killing themselves with guns. Saying somewhere else, with mental health care problems, manages to have even more suicides is meaningless.

Root causes are important, but they are unlikely to be fixed quickly. Even if they are fixed, they may be replaced by other causes. That leaves better education about guns, safe storage, and just maybe choosing to go cold turkey on them under certain circumstances, as the tools we have available. For example, the VA apparently had plans to distribute free gun locks (don't know if they ever did or that got cut somewhere). The one interview I posted shows that each step to slow down an impulsive suicide reduces the odds of suicide by 10%.

Most is an expression of percentage. I'll opt out on that one. Children die, from suicide, by gun. You keep proving that those gun owners probably thought they were going to be the ones who made it through OK, but they didn't. You got lucky, I hope everyone here gets lucky, but more than four hundred families a year don't win that bet and the rates are going up.

As a percentage, however, it does appear that guns aren't particularly useful when put to the test: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...nse-gun-use-2/
Given the importance you would like to place on percentages, wouldn't it make more since to sell your guns and buy a bike?



How about you do a bit of your own research and maybe even try reading what you quoted before you post a reply. See that quote I used? See that last sentence? Joe-Bob, that's what it means, only 10% of those who weren't successful the first time *ever* go on to die by suicide.

As for the rest of your rambling, were there buzzwords you forgot to throw in randomly? I couldn't really tell, I think somehow you meant to say we are in danger from liberal, feminist, Islamic terrorists.




I'm going to regret this, none of you folks trying to stuff your words into my mouth ever even try, but here I go again ... OK, quote where I said that.

More talks about suicide and a classic gun control defense, using the effectiveness (or lack their of) of guns as home defense.

I've probably made my point... but I've never been one to stop when I'm on a roll.

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@ a1derful1 So many edgy one liners. More please, the five o'clock stubble needs it. Hmmm, actually, we teach people things like what can put you in more danger during a thunderstorm. We warn people about carcinogens. A person already using birth control pills and condoms is already taking steps to reduce the risk of pregnancy. People are aware of, react to, and manage risks all the time. Welcome to life, the padded cells haven't filled up yet.

Except for the fact that I feel you make a wonderful example for taking things too far -- I don't know you, your wife, or your daughter. If something happens, you'll be a minor blip in statistics and the odds are I'll never even know. My apologies for attempting to be polite though, I'll put it plainer so you can feel manly feeding me more of your witticisms. Your cousin knew enough about guns to know two things, how to get one and how to blow his brains out. One thing that is pretty certain about kids, they always find the stuff their parents are hiding and often because they get curious about what it is.

That doesn't really matter though. You can teach your daughter about guns, you can keep playing cute games to hide them. What you can't control is what she hears, whether she gets bullied, whether she gets pulled into her generation's version of the Blue Whale. As long as you cannot do that, you cannot really control your house in a way that will guarantee she won't be able to eat one of your guns. You accept that, that's your right, but it seems odd for a guy who goes to so much effort to have protections to accept that risk when there is no need to. I wish you the best of luck, but this is an accelerating statistic, don't let your guard down.

Ironic that you would use fear of accidental death in a vain attempt to persuade a gun owner not own guns... oh but this was still about cults wasn't it.

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What facts? Self defense against what? In particular, self defense against what that requires constant daily protection to ward off? Facts? I gave you the damned Harvard study (shown in your quote of me) that shows self defense fears are exaggerated and so too is the belief that guns for self defense make a net positive contribution to protection. My opinions? How about you go back and see which one of us has actually provided links, studies and statistics.

Japan is Japan. Japan has an entirely different set of mental health issues. Japan has a culture of suicide; we don't, it isn't an honorable out -- we don't cut off our little fingers either. This thread is about America. In America, it appears studies show suicide to be an act of impulse, with the one showing that kids were acting on ten minutes or less of thought. That's mind boggling, twenty minutes before you could have talked to a kid having a bad day, fifteen minutes later they could be gone.



And you still haven't shown where -- other than in your imagination -- I am trying to "prevent that". To ask you to move gun control discussion to the designated thread, that's trying to keep that debate in the designated area. Personally, I think you repeat the NRA talking points (no matter that you aren't a member) to the point of near religion, so yes that does strike me as cult like. Fear brings in members, fear sells guns, that has been a growing trend. Fear gives the NRA numbers, which gives them leverage, which then gets used to sell more guns -- and I suspect there are those that line their pockets from that set of conditions. What I don't hear -- is what is this horrible threat that only seems to stalk America? Why didn't it follow me here? Why wasn't it lurking around me in Germany, even at the time my haircut identified me as an American soldier and we were actively targets of attacks? Question misinformation, question an agenda that appears to put people at a higher risk, you bet your ass I'm going to do that.

You got lucky, you think you didn't but you did. Your children didn't take that wrong turn in reacting to pressure, in getting dumped by an early love, or any of the other things that cause kids to commit suicide. You did your best to protect and guide them, but those things aren't always within a parent's control, thus there is an element of luck. The 82nd are a good group, you have every right to be proud, I'll leave it at that and hope that no ill befalls him or his family.

Here's another study to consider: https://sciencearticles.org/subject/...attached-guns/





And people brighter than a pigeon learn not to stand under trees in thunderstorms, to quit or not take up smoking, to look both ways when crossing the street, to drive defensively, and a bunch of other measures. Enjoy your fatalism.

Fear, suicide, self defense. No real effort made to tie this to cult behavior.

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/head pat Go hide behind your usual Constitution derail. How are you coming on finding my anti-gun stance quote? Oh, right, I didn't drink the Kool-aid, so I must want to take your guns!

@Ghostpanther has your number too it would seem

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@Ghostpanther In other words, you're pulling something out of your ass because you don't really have any facts. Got it!

Says the guy who refuses to defend his own position.

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Which, conveniently, you have no proof of and you're actually going to lengths to avoid what I've said. Really, that goes along with cult behavior.


Source: http://csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm



I'm pretty sure that the post title uses "becoming" in the question. In posing an actual question for discussion, I wrote "Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?" So far, I've had a couple of people define the omnipresent lurking threat as tyranny, but that doesn't explain why one needs every day concealed carry.



I wouldn't entirely disagree with you calling Apple enthusiasts a cult, but I don't think that clears gun owners. Look at the cult checklist above and note: "Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused." I think that potentially describes a large number of gun owners. My real sticking point -- and one posters such as Ghostpanther are going to lengths to address -- is what is the threat? Gun rack in the back of the pickup? Somebody could have told me "bungee, you idiot, we have snakes and varmints to deal with. I can understand that. You like to bag a deer when that season rolls around? I can understand that. I can't understand this unspecified thing that requires constant concealed carry, and maybe even guns in multiple rooms on top of that.

So like I said. The purpose of labeling gun owners a cult... is to shut down opposition and not have discussion (the discussion you were having for 19 pages about gun control)

The first post after several posts to address anything of cult behavior. But again you're totally off base. During the cold war when every home in America was buying provisions and building bunkers for the inevitable nuclear holocaust... they were a cult too right? Because they bought things out of fear? Its a ridiculous argument. It also shows that you don't understand your own checklist. The fear mentioned in your checklist is one imposed on the member by leadership AFTER they are already members. It isn't a tactic to JOIN said group. As I've said many times... you're reaching.

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No, as usual Ghostpanther has. I will offer you the same invitation, quote me advocating gun control!

Home invasions happen. When you aren't home. Usually because you left a path open. As for the rest, I've already posted multiple statistics that show those things are not things that guns are particularly helpful for. The Harvard study specifically addresses many of the claims in that farce sheet you copied.

Hell, homes increase the danger you'll get hurt in a home, they sometimes burn down around our ears. We make all kinds of choices, but we generally try to make informed choices based on accurate information.

Basic fact checking. I look at things like peer reviewed articles or government crime statistics, those seem to consistently show that guns do present more danger than they do to prevent danger. Among those things, FBI data. If you're going to tell me the FBI is cooking statistics to take away people's guns, please offer solid proof.

Again what does any of this have to do with cults. Your basic fact checking, your statistics... speaks more to your position on gun ownership, than it does about gun owners being a cult.

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It is a "spelling mistake" that you've made more than once, leading me to wonder how much you really pay attention to the Second Amendment rather that just repeating things.

I'd like a clear explanation, with lucid writing and not canned comments about ducks, wolves and sheep, explaining how (let me point you at the First Amendment for this) challenging this nebulous threat you keep going on about is somehow attacking the Second Amendment? I don't seem to be having a quarrel with @supertony51, he has explained what threat he sees and how his gun ownership relates to it. We may not see eye to eye, but we have left it at that. Others here are mainly indulging in whatabouts, while not addressing statistics. The Second Amendment does not trump the First, but trying to shut down discussion (which I clearly asked not to be derailed to gun control) is one of the things a cult does.

Buy a gun, carry it with you, something might try to get you! That's largely fear mongering, verified statistics don't seem to support the existence of a threat at the reported levels used to advocate guns for self defense, nor do they show guns as a particularly effective defense. Somehow, most of the rest of the developed world in particular manage to get through their lives quite well without every day carry. You skip right over that point every time I make it, the NRA doesn't want that discussed (but you will bring up that people could let themselves be indoctrinated by taking NRA safety classes).



Thank you for pointing that out.



If that's your fear, that works for you. I'm OK with that, but it isn't a compelling fear for me. What would happen if everybody had guns and something like that happened? We'd end up with armed mobs. Mobs would become bands, bands would generate a series of warlords, that kind of thing has happened here before. Me, as one guy with a gun, I'm not going to influence that much at all because numbers will count far more than guns. I don't see a gun as an answer there, life isn't the Walking Dead.

More attempts by you to paint this "threat" that SOME gun owners (not a cult) use as justification for their purchase, as ridiculous. The threat in and of itself is irrelevant to the conversation of cults.

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It probably makes more sense if you refer back to the language of that quote:



Emphasis added just to highlight something, no intent to "yell" or anything.

You mentioned need. I led with "Needed for what though?" I went on to give examples, you've gone on to explain your views on them. Seems like a reasonable enough discussion to me.

I've looked at (and cited) various reviews of statistics, I haven't found the number to be particularly well documented and follow ups seem to call the reports into question. See: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...nse-gun-use-2/

Nobody is asking me to carry. No, but when self defense comes up, there are those who get quite aggressive about promoting guns for self defense.

Where I get uneasy about the guy buying a cup of coffee in your example is that everybody is law abiding in some sense, until they break the law.

My self defense background does include basic familiarity with firearms, but it was largely armed and unarmed combat. It involved getting struck in the head a lot. At the time, nobody thought much about it -- you get up, shake it off, and go on if you're cleared to. Now, it seems that things may have been more dangerous than we thought. Among the problems, they find head injuries can lead to an increase in violent behavior. They're still studying this, hopefully it is another storm in a teacup. But if it isn't, I don't know if that guy had a bad day at work or with his wife and be predisposed to anger issues. I don't know how clear his judgment is, or how he will really react if he thinks he has a reason to pull his gun.

Even if everything goes perfectly, accidental discharges happen. I haven't really bothered to keep up on modern pistols, I was taught you don't keep a round in the chamber. Perhaps it is safer now, but I cringe when I see someone advocate keeping a round ready to fire as some here have (that was brought up in the self defense thread). As far as I know, that increases the odds of an accidental discharge if the guy knocks his firearm loose in the manner of the Cracker Barrel incident I mentioned.

Now, this is about the point that many will claim I'm advocating gun control. Let me clear that I'm not. I'd be more comfortable if CCW had to go through certification on the same schedule as police, but I'm not even advocating that. What I am doing, is asking people to double check the facts, and make an informed decision. You seem to be doing that, and it appears you are taking steps to keep things safe. All cool by me.

@supertony51 Nah, I don't have a problem with you either.

Here's that "civil" conversation you were referring to where you guys pop open a beer, talk about the good ol days, and braid each others hair. Why no talk about cults? Because you didn't want to.

Yep I think that just about does it. You say that I want to have a conversation about gun control (which is essentially you saying "No, you!") but I haven't actually given you my position on guns. I've stayed away from that, because it isn't on topic.

The bottom line is you just aren't very educated. You've read a couple facts and now you're fixated on a conclusion.

I would definitely suggest reading up on other topics such as groupthink, cult vs culture, mob mentality, and marketing techniques.

I'm sure if I took the time (something you should have done from page 1) I could write a far more convincing post on how/why China/Communism is a cult, than what you have done trying to make the argument that gun owners are a cult.

Good day.

Indeed.

[Dystemper]

This thread was nothing but a gun control thread from the start. As soon as you tried to equate gun ownership with cult status. Nothing but a gun control circle jerk

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Whoa! Whoa! Lets not generalize humans with U.S american citizens.

How is this not infracted for nation bashing?

[Saucexorzski]

This thread was nothing buy a gun control thread from the start. As soon as you tried to equate gun ownership with cult status. Nothing but a gun control circle jerk

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How is this not infracted for nation bashing?

because bashing america has always been allowed on these boards.

[Dystemper]

because bashing america has always been allowed on these boards.

From what I have seen over the years very much so. But if you dare say anything critical of EUrope you get slapped with a infraction.

[Ghostpanther]

Not sure it is a cult, but if it is it’s the bloodiest cult in human history.

So you do not think Nazism is a cult?

[BuckSparkles]

So you do not think Nazism is a cult?

I would say it is at this point for how utterly tiny and insignificant the neo-nazi population is, despite what the news would say otherwise.