Subterfuge / Burst of Speed

[Deleted]

I do miss having shadowstep simply because of how long I've had it as a rogue, but I don't think there's a way for them to balance mobility talents so that 1 isn't always the clear winner.

I'd just buff Shadowstep to make Burst of lolz useless. Lower its cooldown dramatically or increase the speed duration and grant temporary immunity to slows..

[Feali]

I just wish the devs would listen.

JK 270° Backstab

[ro9ue]

We are underpowered in the long game. Our survivability outside cool downs is laughable.

But in open world scenarios, I can totally sense the frustration of killing someone before they are even able to see you with Subterfuge. It's simply way too OP. If they manage to survive that or we are talking arena/rbgs with healers and such, subterfuge is easily countered because of team support and they know of your presence ahead of time.

It's just awkward IMO. Burst of Speed is required if you take Subterfuge to keep pace in stealth. I prefer Nightstalker and Shadowstep in arena/team play.

For bloody coin farming and casual stuff, I could get a jump on someone and get them near dead before subterfuge wears off. But the whole point is it doesn't matter how OP it is in those scenarios because Blizzard chooses to only reward teamplay. So we are underrepresented in rankings, but seemingly OP to casual players who get ganked in the open world or even random bgs (which is probably the majority of the playerbase).

That's a big problem IMO and I would rather sacrifice OPness in that area so we can actually compete for high end rewards and get a spot just as easily as a warlock or something.

[Wow]

I do miss having shadowstep simply because of how long I've had it as a rogue, but I don't think there's a way for them to balance mobility talents so that 1 isn't always the clear winner.

While a perfect one would likely never happen a shadow step tier could give a lot better balance than now because they don't have to try and come up with 2 new abilities that aren't shadow step but work as good. That would be a lot easier to come up with ideas with to create choice than what we've had with the mobility tier so far.

[Artorius]

We already run at 125% on beta passively. 135% if you have a WW in your raid.

Oh, my mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope wod has about the same amount of snares as mop more were added than were removed and some of the new ones are worse than before like adding in auto shot slows...

That's what a lot of people don't seem to get bos only breaks one thing and the problem with those they aren't changing its getting worse. And just to point out while bos doesn't do anything to roots they haven't fixed anything on that either anything that shits outs roots on live still does it in wod. Things haven't got any better on snares and roots in wod.

I said it was supposed to fix the issue.

But anyway, BoS is not much different from druid's shapeshifts.

Yes it's retarded gameplay to negate slows mechanics like this, but if they get it away from us they should remove from druids also.

[Wow]

I said it was supposed to fix the issue.

Every expansion is supposed to fix the issues but we know how that goes after 10 years of this...

[OneSent]

I haven't used Burst of Speed in a PvP setting, but taking the Nightstalker talent and spamming Burst of Speed allows us to move faster in stealth than a normal player on a ground mount.

It's pretty nice and probably a bit broken. I remember when being in stealth was as slow as RP walking.

[Deleted]

1) I would rather have ShS buffed to the level of Charge (cd and talents tier) than BoS.

2) If Subterfuge's defensive part wont be brought back, we are doomed.

Without Subterfuge + all aoe and dots in beta this class is dog-shit. We are basically warriors without charge and survivability.

[Adp]

mm ShS is unique in that you can use the z-axis. Prime examples of this in arena are the bridge in Blade's edge and the floor of Dalaran, it's just much more useful for swaps and peels since it puts you right on the target (and you can target allies to gtfo of that burst comin' at you). I can see the gripe about it in BGs but honestly, lets not forget about druids.

Also, spamming BoS in stealth to get around is my preferred method of ground travel. Given the no flight until 6.x in WoD I'd really value this talent for leveling.

[shadowboy]

We already run at 125% on beta passively. 135% if you have a WW in your raid.

145% if stealthed with nightstalker.

[Sicarius87]

mm ShS is unique in that you can use the z-axis. Prime examples of this in arena are the bridge in Blade's edge and the floor of Dalaran, it's just much more useful for swaps and peels since it puts you right on the target (and you can target allies to gtfo of that burst comin' at you). I can see the gripe about it in BGs but honestly, lets not forget about druids.

Also, spamming BoS in stealth to get around is my preferred method of ground travel. Given the no flight until 6.x in WoD I'd really value this talent for leveling.

Guild perk (even with the guild levels removed some perks still stay) ground mount speed would be 220%. Still 5% faster than nightstalker + BoS.

Im happy with the change to subterfuge and I personally hope it dies in WoD. I wish BoS would get removed as well.

[Wow]

Guild perk (even with the guild levels removed some perks still stay) ground mount speed would be 220%. Still 5% faster than nightstalker + BoS.

Im happy with the change to subterfuge and I personally hope it dies in WoD. I wish BoS would get removed as well.

The guild perk on beta only gets you to 210% I don't know if this is intended or a bug but all the mount speed bonuses are now additive rather than multiplicative.

[Ninepenny]

Both of these retarded talents perfectly sum up what was wrong with pvp this expansion. I wish though that they'd just get outright removed and buried forever in the ground along with Shadow Blades.

As of right now, I am still afraid that subtlety will retain this clunky and unfun gameplay of feinting and spamming BoS while trying to get a restealth to gip someone with two eviscerate crits in a row ( or continue wiggling around like a worthless worm with your cute little backstabs).

[Raugnaut]

The guild perk on beta only gets you to 210% I don't know if this is intended or a bug but all the mount speed bonuses are now additive rather than multiplicative.

Its a side-effect of them making all movement speed buffs additive.

BoS can keep the snare removal spammability. The speed buff needs to be lowered though. Beta BoS gets you to 215% movement speed while stealthed with Nightstalker. Thats 5% faster then guild perk, 15% faster then no-guild mounted speed! Have a WW with you and you move at mount speed pretty much while unstealthed.

BoS- snare removal, 30% movement speed bonus.

Faerie Fire is fine. Only one class can use it against us, it lasts for 20 seconds, it takes them a global to use and only Bear's can damage us with it. Gives us a counter.

Subterfuge... In all honesty? too OP atm when combined with 2 sec stealth CD glyph. Loosing a fight? Got some nasty DoTs on you? Vanish, and Subterfuge keeps you in stealth until you decide to rejoin the fight. As for arena PvP, its not that important. ATM, ~3/4th's of the classes have some sort of AoE stun/disorient/knockback/root/whatever that basically nullifies that 3 seconds of stealth. Warlocks- Shadowfury, Druids- Disorienting Roar, Warriors- Intimidating Shout, Priests- Psychic Scream, Mages- Frost Nova (AoE knockbacks next expansion), Monks- Leg Sweep, Shamans- Thunderstorm/Stun totem, Paladins- Blinding Light, and DKs- Gorefiends Grasp/Remorseless Winter. Hunters, of course, have Flare/Pet stun/Binding Shot/ect. Basically, every single class, except other rogues, have the ability to immediately lock/start locking the rogue down as soon as Subterfuge is active. It's only benefit is resetting the fight with Vanish/Stealth, and all that combined with 1 min CD cloak and BoS means that atm, Rogues are the absolute best class at escaping. Considering that next expansion, Sub gets a 90 second vanish and Combat/Assasin gets a 60 second vanish, well, its no wonder Subterfuge is getting nerfed.

[Deleted]

Considering that next expansion, Sub gets a 90 second vanish and Combat/Assasin gets a 60 second vanish, well, its no wonder Subterfuge is getting nerfed.

Even if vanish was 30sec CD it would still be useless without Subterfuge.

I dont know if you played beta or not, but stealth basically doesnt exist there. Amount of AoEs and 30sec DoTs is basically the same as on Live. Theres no such thing as getting an opener on warlock (and many other classes) anymore. Not such thing as getting restealth without wasting vanish. Basically stealth mechanism is brought back to 2004 state, while the game is still 2014. It cant and wont work.

[Deleted]

I dont know what people are complaining about. Remember BoS costs energy..

[Knough]

We need BoS so with the stealth movement buff, my rogue can run as fast as a mount. That's my favourite ability.

[Deleted]

I can't honestly see a way to make BoS fair without making it pale in comparison to Shadowstep. I like the idea of making ShS baseline and removing BoS/CnD, making our mobility tier similar to mage bomb tier in that there are simply three effective versions of Shadowstep to choose from.

[edwardcook14]

Burst of Speed, although extremely fun with Subterfuge and Glyph of Stealth in world PvP setting, doesn't add much to mechanics and rotation. As Felfury said, I'd like Burst of Speed to be scratched and have the designers focus on improving Shadowstep for the Rogue class.