Do we have good 6.2 Sims yet?

[Valkaneer]

Do we have any good solid sims yet for the 6.2 warrior arms and fury? I was trying to run a (AMR) Generic sim of BiS vs other classes of the same type and found the Sims to be drastically different from those posted on Simcraft's web page. I just kid of figured the Sims must not be that good yet. Of coarse if the Sims are not done yet then I guess running your own personal sim also would not be accurate.

[Bigbazz]

Fury is good, Arms sim is a bit all over the place. Trinkets are also wrong in the public sim, since there have been nerfs since the last build.

[Valkaneer]

Fury is good, Arms sim is a bit all over the place. Trinkets are also wrong in the public sim, since there have been nerfs since the last build.

Do you mean the personal sim or this one?

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18N.html

Cuz every time I ran a BiS Fury Warrior vs BiS DWFrost, DWFrost handily won.

I was trying to figure out who is full of crap and who is not. Since every freaking thread is saying something different. One post will say Fury is leading Arms at BiS but lagging behind until you get BiS. Others say Frost is good right now but stagnate and frost will over take with gear. Some say well that is only in Mythic gear but in Heroic gear blah blah blah ETC ETC ETC

It gets old seeing every post contradict each other. So I figured I would just run the Sims myself except I was finding Frost leading Fury by 5k, that is when I figured something must not be right.

Also the sims do not seem to be anywhere close to actual raids.

[Archimtiros]

Do you mean the personal sim or this one?

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18N.html

Cuz every time I ran a BiS Fury Warrior vs BiS DWFrost, DWFrost handily won.

I was trying to figure out who is full of crap and who is not. Since every freaking thread is saying something different. One post will say Fury is leading Arms at BiS but lagging behind until you get BiS. Others say Frost is good right now but stagnate and frost will over take with gear. Some say well that is only in Mythic gear but in Heroic gear blah blah blah ETC ETC ETC

It gets old seeing every post contradict each other. So I figured I would just run the Sims myself except I was finding Frost leading Fury by 5k, that is when I figured something must not be right.

Also the sims do not seem to be anywhere close to actual raids.

Who would have guessed that variables in simulations influence results?

You are looking for answers to like, three different questions and wonder why they aren't the same. First off that report you linked was T18 N, which is normal, and immediately after you say the sim you ran was BiS, which I assume to be at least Mythic. Next you talk about sims not adding up to actual raid results. Those giant reports are patchwerk, they are intended to give a baseline, not a comprehensive overview of how each class handles different possible encounters. It's meant to give an overall indication of balancing and make it easy to tell when a simulation is/not accurately reflecting real data.

TLDR: Use sims properly.

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Do we have any good solid sims yet for the 6.2 warrior arms and fury? I was trying to run a (AMR) Generic sim of BiS vs other classes of the same type and found the Sims to be drastically different from those posted on Simcraft's web page. I just kid of figured the Sims must not be that good yet. Of coarse if the Sims are not done yet then I guess running your own personal sim also would not be accurate.

Probably because those posted are N and H, and not BiS. You know you can go into those reports and look at each individual variable, including APL and gear to see what is different about your sim and theirs right?

[Ssateneth]

Another random person complaining that sims are wrong because he doesn't understand how to use it properly.

Are player ability AP/SP coefficients correct in sim? Yes.
Are player ability effects (procs, etc) correct? Should be. Some weird tier procs (arcane mage pets?) may need more data, but are otherwise correct as far as we know. Any hotfixes done to player abilities since 620-1 was pushed won't be in 620-1 but are already written in to the next version.
Is gear correctly modeled? The public 620-1 build has some outdated spell info with some trinkets, but corrections have already been written and will be in the next version.

The biggest one: Are the fights correct? This one is the one most people seem to ignore and then blame simc being wrong and nowhere near ingame results. If you are simming patchwerk, then it only applies to literal patchwerk fights. If you want the sim to better model an actual boss fight, all the tools are there within simc to make the fight as accurate as you want to the real fight (aside from some special cases possible, such as gorefiend stomach). Do you get stunned randomly in a fight? Theres an event you can add to it. Are there adds that spawn during the fight? You can specify when adds spawn, how many spawn, and how long they will live. Do you need to move a lot or have to run out of range? Movement and range is now modeled in the most recent simc builds. You just have to add these events within the fight. It may not be very intuitive in that there isn't an easy way to do this like click a button, do a dropdown box, and then you are done. You have to read the documentation to understand what events are available and how to write them in.

There are (usually) nightly builds up on http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/ (just sort by date and get the newest version) which have many of the changes done seen here. https://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/source/list . If the public version isn't good enough for you, try a nightly build, or build it yourself from source.

[Valkaneer]

Who would have guessed that variables in simulations influence results?

You are looking for answers to like, three different questions and wonder why they aren't the same. First off that report you linked was T18 N, which is normal, and immediately after you say the sim you ran was BiS, which I assume to be at least Mythic. Next you talk about sims not adding up to actual raid results. Those giant reports are patchwerk, they are intended to give a baseline, not a comprehensive overview of how each class handles different possible encounters. It's meant to give an overall indication of balancing and make it easy to tell when a simulation is/not accurately reflecting real data.

TLDR: Use sims properly.

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Probably because those posted are N and H, and not BiS. You know you can go into those reports and look at each individual variable, including APL and gear to see what is different about your sim and theirs right?

You misunderstand what I was doing. I am comparing the sims at every level. normal, heroic and mythic. In ever single one DWFrost beat fury warriors at every level. Which is not what people keep saying on the forums. If you looked at more than just one of the Sims you would see every single sim no matter what ilvl Fury comes out ahead, but when I ran the Sim DWFrost was on top in every single gear level.

How about not being a jerk, cuz no matter what sim that was posted every result conflicts with the (AMR) generic BiS Exported - to sim.

http://simulationcraft.org/

Every one ^ shows Warriors on top of DWFrost in every sim. I was also running a Patchwerk sim and DWfrost was on top by 5k or greater in every sim. So something is wrong because they should be matching up. I know some sims are better than others, back in Beta the DK sims (for some specs) were pretty bad, while other sims like Kommas were very good and accurate. So all I was just trying to figure out why the sims I was using was so far off.

[Archimtiros]

You misunderstand what I was doing. I am comparing the sims at every level. normal, heroic and mythic. In ever single one DWFrost beat fury warriors at every level. Which is not what people keep saying on the forums. If you looked at more than just one of the Sims you would see every single sim no matter what ilvl Fury comes out ahead, but when I ran the Sim DWFrost was on top in every single gear level.

How about not being a jerk, cuz no matter what sim that was posted every result conflicts with the (AMR) generic BiS Exported - to sim.

http://simulationcraft.org/

Every one ^ shows Warriors on top of DWFrost in every sim. I was also running a Patchwerk sim and DWfrost was on top by 5k or greater in every sim. So something is wrong because they should be matching up. I know some sims are better than others, back in Beta the DK sims (for some specs) were pretty bad, while other sims like Kommas were very good and accurate. So all I was just trying to figure out why the sims I was using was so far off.

And you don't understand what I am saying. You can't compare SimC's rankings, based on one group of gear, to a completely different set of gear gotten off AMR. To be honest I have no clue what gear AMR thinks is best, but if it came from that website, it's probably dead wrong, just as they have been since the website started.

Now, if you are actually using the same gear and same variables and still getting different results from what is posted, then you probably have a different version that is missing some changes. Those are the only two possibilities, either your version is wrong, or your variables are different, end of story. Neither of those are the programs fault, but user error.

If you really want someone to figure it out for you, try posting what you are doing and then maybe we can see where you've gone wrong, but just making a post complaining about contradiction, without any context as to how or why results are different, doesn't do anything but add more confusion.

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To show this, I just ran a couple of my own simulations, very quickly without even bothering to go over any major variable changes, just setting patchwerk and making sure the fight length was the same:

Ranking Results v My results:

	Bar Ranking	My results
N 2h Fury	55,687	55,182
N 1h Frost	54,540	55,934
H 2h Fury	67,000	66,416
H 1h Frost	62,720	64,420

Now there is some variance, but not very much, a few hundred dps isn't a huge margin when considering the low amount of iterations that are being run. I didn't even realize until after the fact that I was running 10k while the bar chart was only running 7k. Obviously results are less flexible with more iterations to average them out. Still there is some disparity in the Death Knight results, and I could go through to find out exactly what, but I honestly don't care, as it's still only about a 3% variance. Most likely a small gear or APL change between my private version and the public release, which is why I pointed out that it is always a good idea to make sure you are using the same version, for accurate comparisons.

Now for the nail in the coffin; I ran AMR's BiS optimizer for Heroic T18 2h Fury and got a wildly different result using the exact same variables: 68,208, which is almost 4k lower, so I looked at the gear and see it is using Bleeding Hollow, different boots, wrists, waist and neck. Basically everything except the no brainer choices of weapon, trinkets, tier and Archimonde shoulder is different, so is it really any wonder the results are different?

Now, you can argue over which is better. I'm not going to pretend that the Fury list is completely optimized, Bleeding Hollow is undoubtedly better when going for best in slot, but the profiles on SimC don't attempt to get BiS. They simply take realistic gear from the difficulty and put it together. They are often compiled long before BiS lists are even envisioned, and frankly BiS isn't totally realistic anyways, as Warforged, sockets, etc play a huge roll in them.

Again, SimCraft is a tool, and like all tools, it's only as good as how you use it. If you compare two things with wildly different variables, say an unoptimized fury gear list vs a BiS Death Knight one, you are going to get different results. The bar charts that SimC are not there to give you an "end all, be all" compilation of specs performance; it is simply an overview meant to show relative comparison, and most importantly look for major defects in the profiles. Not minor ones, such as using the wrong enchant, but major ones, like the Fire Mage profile simming 20k under what it should because it isn't using Pyroblast.

[Valkaneer]

I found the variance for AMR warrior BiS list, they have the wrong talents selected. When I ran the armor the from Simc, with AMR talents it was almost 5k lower. I'm still working on the DWF issue. I just wanted to make sure the warrior sims were accurate because it use to be the people here on the forums were not the same people who made the sim for SimC. Such as in Beta Collision had his own individual sims that were not part of the sims SimC was releasing.

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Thanks for the information in your second post, gave me some information I previously did not know about simc (6th paragraph). Once I find something I know to be correct then I can work from their and figure the rest out. Now I know the sims are good, I can figure the rest out from there.

[Archimtiros]

I found the variance for AMR warrior BiS list, they have the wrong talents selected. When I ran the armor the from Simc, with AMR talents it was almost 5k lower. I'm still working on the DWF issue. I just wanted to make sure the warrior sims were accurate because it use to be the people here on the forums were not the same people who made the sim for SimC. Such as in Beta Collision had his own individual sims that were not part of the sims SimC was releasing.

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Thanks for the information in your second post, gave me some information I previously did not know about simc (6th paragraph). Once I find something I know to be correct then I can work from their and figure the rest out. Now I know the sims are good, I can figure the rest out from there.

Yeah I changed the talents manually. Still the point was to show the disparity in gear. The SimC lists are not, and never have been BiS lists (except the T17 marked "B" and even those are very early versions), so you'll never get the same results comparing them. Still AMR also uses inferior stat weights, so I'm pretty sure their BiS isn't actually BiS.

I can assure you that the people on these forums are the exact same people working on SimC for Warriors and our sims are more than accurate.

[Gangster021]

could u guys please update sim after the trinekt nerf please?