BM vs MM

[Dwoggurd]

I don't see how BM is actually effective for Iskar. The most important thing during the add phases is to single-target burst down the priority add as quickly as possible, not to cleave down the meaningless melee mobs with no other abilities. You can pad, sure, but it's not going to help you beat the fight.

I don't see why you want to single-target adds during aoe phases. It is dps loss and not required for killing Iskar.
You can toss the eye and deal with chains (on mythic) and other mechanics. You don't really need any specific add to die fast.
Why just don't kill them all instead?

But if you want to tunnel a specific add as BM you can do it as well, just check top Iskar parses for damage to specific targets. It's actually even easier for BM to save burst cds (MM's Rapid Fire has 2min cooldown and will not be up for every set).

[spinner981]

It's unfortunate that now that all the hunters specs are going to be so different in Legion, that being forced into the optimal spec will be so much more of a pain in the butt. It is currently either BM or SV for me in WoD, because MM is just such a pain and is boring to play, especially having to haul around focusing shot.

[dexx]

You'll be way behind other DPS who actually have decent trinkets and set bonuses

Good trinkets, set bonus, and legendary ring will double your DPS.

[chooi]

I don't see why you want to single-target adds during aoe phases. It is dps loss and not required for killing Iskar.
You can toss the eye and deal with chains (on mythic) and other mechanics. You don't really need any specific add to die fast.
Why just don't kill them all instead?

But if you want to tunnel a specific add as BM you can do it as well, just check top Iskar parses for damage to specific targets. It's actually even easier for BM to save burst cds (MM's Rapid Fire has 2min cooldown and will not be up for every set).

You can skip chains completely by bursting the Chain Add within ~21sec which trivializes Mythic Iskar basically to Heroic Iskar - and why wouldn't you want to do that? MM is >>>>> BM for that task.

And no, you will have RF up for every add set. With above strat you maybe have to stop raid DPS for very few seconds before 2nd wave - but who cares, damage on boss in ground phase is totally irrelevant.

Even when playing the chains or on Normal/Heroic difficulty you want to kill priority adds ASAP where again MM >>> BM. Padding the smaller adds is wasted DPS.

BM on Iskar is padding.

Why would you want to gimp yourself to a padding spec that is totally not needed when you can play the best spec over all classes at bursting priority adds? Let the cleave/AoE to Melees and Warlocks that are ten times better at it.

[Atrianna]

I think it depends on your group comp. You want everything to die, you definitely don't want to be behind on the adds, even if you are single targeting down priority adds. Just like assault. Sure, there is a kill target, but you aoe because if you just single target, you get behind. I could see BM being good on Iskar with some strong single target burst in the group as well (ie: other hunters as MM), but I would leave it as circumstantial.

[Hunterforlife]

Look at that same warcraftlogs chart on heroic or normal difficulty and bm will drop all the way to the bottom, because those difficulties are much more accessible and allow worse players to play suboptimal specs, rather than something like the top 1% of players who can successfully kill late mythic bosses as bm and get away with it.

I'm not arguing that BM is better than MM, but this part of your argument is totally nonsensical. The only way to really gauge the specs is by having the BEST players use them on the same fights. The top players will be able maximize each spec and provide a valid representative sample of results. Using data from novice or mediocre players is totally useless when trying to determine the BEST spec.

[Dwoggurd]

You can skip chains completely by bursting the Chain Add within ~21sec which trivializes Mythic Iskar basically to Heroic Iskar - and why wouldn't you want to do that? MM is >>>>> BM for that task.

And no, you will have RF up for every add set. With above strat you maybe have to stop raid DPS for very few seconds before 2nd wave - but who cares, damage on boss in ground phase is totally irrelevant.

Even when playing the chains or on Normal/Heroic difficulty you want to kill priority adds ASAP where again MM >>> BM. Padding the smaller adds is wasted DPS.

BM on Iskar is padding.

Why would you want to gimp yourself to a padding spec that is totally not needed when you can play the best spec over all classes at bursting priority adds? Let the cleave/AoE to Melees and Warlocks that are ten times better at it.

That sounds like a lot of work just to remove one of mechanics.
I could see that for some groups that can't toss the eye well it would be nice to skip chains (or reduce the eye passing in normal/heroic). But is it really required for killing Iskar? Does this specific strat imply that all classes and specs which are not optimal for bursting the chain add are in fact padding specs?
If you open logs you could see that the fastest mythic Iskar kill is 4:06. If you want to have Rapid Fire up for each add phase you basically have to stop dps to make your fight much longer.
Why you want to gimp yourself to a slow Iskar kill and play a spec that does less overall damage just to skip one mechanic which is not really hard to deal with? It is not _required_ for killing Iskar.

[chooi]

That sounds like a lot of work just to remove one of mechanics.
I could see that for some groups that can't toss the eye well it would be nice to skip chains (or reduce the eye passing in normal/heroic). But is it really required for killing Iskar? Does this specific strat imply that all classes and specs which are not optimal for bursting the chain add are in fact padding specs?
If you open logs you could see that the fastest mythic Iskar kill is 4:06. If you want to have Rapid Fire up for each add phase you basically have to stop dps to make your fight much longer.
Why you want to gimp yourself to a slow Iskar kill and play a spec that does less overall damage just to skip one mechanic which is not really hard to deal with? It is not _required_ for killing Iskar.

Actually, it requires less effort than dealing with the chains. It only requires enough DPS to burst the add in 20sec which should be no problem this far in current patch. As not every class can pull the average needed DPS you have to rely on your strongest burst specs (like MM Hunter, Mages) that easily do 150k+ DPS.

Of course, it's not required for killing Iskar but it makes the fight a lot easier, especially for guilds still progressing in Mythic and for players who are not Method/Paragon-material. Trying to compare with those kind of players is laughable. Thus your 4min log on Iskar is irrelevant as these are from guilds that are running around in full 730+ gear, farming the content for months now and mostly playing for ranks at this time which naturally involves heavy padding. Just check logs for Brackets of ilvl <720 - you will rarely see BM. Guess why?

(BTW fun fact: The guild with 4:06min killed Iskar with 4 MM Hunters. I wonder why... )

Even when playing the chains as intended MM > BM because DPS on small adds is completely irrelevant. Heck...you could let them alive and still easily kill the boss. They do literally nothing. I bet Blizzard only put them in to fuck around with people that don't realize that sacrificing singletarget-DPS on priority adds to AoE the small adds is actually contraproductive. DPS on the priority adds is the only thing that matters at Iskar.

[Dwoggurd]

Just check logs for Brackets of ilvl <720 - you will rarely see BM. Guess why?

Because they have no idea about BM and MM strengths or weaknesses.
They saw somewhere on forums that BM is behind MM on Simcraft so they just play MM all the time.

(BTW fun fact: The guild with 4:06min killed Iskar with 4 MM Hunters. I wonder why... )

Even among top hunters many just don't bother to swap specs. You can play MM on every fight and still do fine. When they have literally zero BM parses for several months it would be just inefficient for them to learn/polish another spec for a few fights that can be done as MM as well (the difference isn't that huge).
Plus, with a lot of gear when everything dies instantly MM will obviously pull ahead because there will be less aoe for BM to shine on.

Even when playing the chains as intended MM > BM because DPS on small adds is completely irrelevant. Heck...you could let them alive and still easily kill the boss. They do literally nothing. I bet Blizzard only put them in to fuck around with people that don't realize that sacrificing singletarget-DPS on priority adds to AoE the small adds is actually contraproductive. DPS on the priority adds is the only thing that matters at Iskar.

You have several adds you want to have dead on Iskar. Each add phase introduces yet another special add. It is not just a single priority add. When you have 3-4 special adds, it is more efficient to kill them all instead of single-targeting them one by one. So no one does that, everyone aoe'ing hard.

[Deleted]

Iskar mythic was just like heroic for us, except we had to have a lot of burst dps to skip the chains. That was a lot easier with MM. Not sure why BM is presented as a good iskar spec.

[chooi]

Because they have no idea about BM and MM strengths or weaknesses.
They saw somewhere on forums that BM is behind MM on Simcraft so they just play MM all the time.

Fail.
I said check <720 logs because it shows what's clearly best for progression, including the top guilds on progression that actually have an idea about BM/MM's strengths and weaknesses I'd guess If BM were the better spec for Iskar you'd clearly see a tendency towards it (hint: you don't). In contrast, BM becomes more popular only at really high ilvl's for the sake of 'padding teh ranks'.

Plus, with a lot of gear when everything dies instantly MM will obviously pull ahead because there will be less useless aoe for BM to shine on.

Fixed that for you.

You have several adds you want to have dead on Iskar. Each add phase introduces yet another special add. It is not just a single priority add. When you have 3-4 special adds, it is more efficient to kill them all instead of single-targeting them one by one. So no one does that, everyone aoe'ing hard.

Fail again.
You still want to kill certain adds quicker than others. You know, there is a reason why it is called 'priority'.

[Dwoggurd]

Fail.
I said check <720 logs because it shows what's clearly best for progression

Fail.
People play whatever spec they have prepared for progression. If you play MM for first 6 bosses and gear for MM there is nothing wrong with using MM on Iskar as well. Many hunters didn't even try BM this tier. MM is better on more bosses so they don't bother swapping specs, well at least most of them don't. This also depends on your strategy. If you burst down the chain add and need more ranged damage in the last phase, then MM is more suitable (my guild doesn't burn the chain add, btw).

If BM were the better spec for Iskar you'd clearly see a tendency towards it (hint: you don't). In contrast, BM becomes more popular only at really high ilvl's for the sake of 'padding teh ranks'.

Why do you think you would see a tendency? To create a tendency people have to actually try BM first and 90% of playerbase don't. BM became more popular when people realized that it can be good on some fights. Some hunters from top guilds used BM for progression very early.

You still want to kill certain adds quicker than others. You know, there is a reason why it is called 'priority'.

Fail.
I don't want certain adds to die quicker. All of them dying together doesn't bother me at all.
If your tank and healer can't toss the eye to each other, you have more serious problems than picking "correct" hunter spec for you raid.

Aoe on Iskar is not useless. Those "harmless" adds for early phases were added only as replacement for specific adds with mechanics until you start getting them later. Blizzard wanted this fight to have a feeling of progression and have aoe phases. For the first aoe phase, when you have only one (two in mythic) special add they also added trash adds. For the last aoe phase when you get maximum number of special adds trash adds no longer needed.

You can also go to warlock's thread and post that they should all play affliction on Iskar because there are "priority" adds and they should single-target.
Or go to druid's thread and ask every feral to pay Boomkin on Iskar because you can't reach the boss mid-air as melee.

[Conn]

All this talk about padding..

Peopel tend to forget some people play this game for fun aswell, and sometimes u got to crack it up a bit to keep urself in a joyfull mood (without it risking causing it to be costly for the raidgrp ofc)

I have BM as OS, and i only use it for certain situations.
1. Killrog if i need to go in with a grp struggling to get 20 stacks (pet tanks), i almost always end up as top dps on that fight regardless of spec.
2. Iskar BM if we lack overall Add dmg, MM if we need more Priority target deeps.
3. BM on Xul its totaly useless for me because double rogue and warrior combo make sure only dps i get on imps is a half barrage lol.

Might add that i was Main Survival for years and learned BM for Blackrock, and MM for Hellfire.

Survival with all my years of practice is totaly utter disastrouse now, sadly.

So what would i do? Play what you enjoy unless the Raidgrp needs you to be one or the other for certain fights!

[chooi]

Fail.
People play whatever spec they have prepared for progression. If you play MM for first 6 bosses and gear for MM there is nothing wrong with using MM on Iskar as well. Many hunters didn't even try BM this tier. MM is better on more bosses so they don't bother swapping specs, well at least most of them don't. This also depends on your strategy. If you burst down the chain add and need more ranged damage in the last phase, then MM is more suitable (my guild doesn't burn the chain add, btw).

People in progression race simply play what's best for progression. They didn't play BM (you can be sure that they tried it on PTR though) because MM is better in every single fight in HFC with only Xhul/Manno as possible BM-fights.

Why do you think you would see a tendency? To create a tendency people have to actually try BM first and 90% of playerbase don't. BM became more popular when people realized that it can be good on some fights. Some hunters from top guilds used BM for progression very early.

They tried and MM came out superior. That's it. BM became popular with boredom of MM and outgearing the content. 'Some' hunters? I bet you can count them with one hand. Show me evidence, please.

Fail.
I don't want certain adds to die quicker. All of them dying together doesn't bother me at all.
If your tank and healer can't toss the eye to each other, you have more serious problems than picking "correct" hunter spec for you raid.

Just showing again that you haven't understood the quintessence of the fight.

You can also go to warlock's thread and post that they should all play affliction on Iskar because there are "priority" adds and they should single-target.
Or go to druid's thread and ask every feral to pay Boomkin on Iskar because you can't reach the boss mid-air as melee.

We are not in a warlock thread and we are not in a druid thread. These classes have totally different toolkits.

We are in a hunter thread about 'BM vs MM' where you are trying to make lame excuses for playing BM on Iskar from a progression PoV. Of course, it's possible but it's definitely worse than MM to meet the demands of the encounter (unless you are playing with 10 Sub Rogues ) Like it or not.

[frymastermeat]

Does one have some sort of advantage when it comes to doing boss mechanics? Because that's where 99% of wipes come from.

Actually MM has the bonus from standing still, so it's entirely plausible that there are people out there who are playing MM for the "deeps" but are actually more of a detriment to their guild than they would be if they played a more mobile spec.

[Hunterforlife]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8

I have to amend my previous post. Taking a closer look at the data provided by the link, it's obvious that the BM Hunter data is in error. The sample size for BM is very small and the min/max scores are out of wack, so there's an error somewhere. Comparing max scores (which is probably the best way to judge the extent that a very good player can maximize the potential of a spec) it's clear that MM is far superior to BM.

[Deleted]

The only real use for BM in HFC after you get 4set tr18 is if your raid lack with melees so you can take a melee damage spot and sit on boss and adds 5yards of it all day do nothing else
Its even have slight advantage over melees coz you can arcane/kill shot adds in range but if you have to force your pet to run around like headless chicken then no chances to get even close to MM

[art0of0win1hiki]

PvE = 100% MM hunter, 4xt18 bonus)))