Help please - Carnage v massacre

[Beelz]

Hi all

Just can't get my head around this, as the title says I'm clearing failing to understand the need for massacre, so let me start with some background.

First up I've been a lock since vanilla this is my first ever re-roll so I don't know warriors inside and out, what might be expected to be known I might not...feel free to point out what you may think I should already know

This is raiding content (heroic level and pushing into the first few mythics as each patch moves on), I'm currently 866 geared with basically nothing else required this patch, except a few minor upgrades. On fights like ursoc I'm around the 330 dps mark using carnage and currently have one legendary (the back), artifact level 27.

My rotation using carnage ( in execute ) is just BL, RB and execute, skipping RB and getting in as many executes as poss when enraged.

Whenever I have tried to move to massacre my overall dps drops (down to around 280) am I missing something or are others finding the same dps drop from massacre or is it simply that I am not doing things right in execute ?

Appreciate any advise

Beelz.

[Fourze]

The Execute phase doesn't work if you don't have Massacre. What it does it let you chain Executes and free Rampages with the occasional RB and BT.

[Deleted]

Execute phase is *ok* with Carnage, i wouldn't say it doesn't work.

Massacre is obviously superior but you can still stack Juggernaught as high as boss mechanics allow.

[Deleted]

Except you have a super long execute phase, you dont want to use execute at all with carnage because its a damage loss. You basically never (or very rarely) get enraged without massacre, so you lose 40%+ dmg increase.
With massacre and a bit proc luck you can EX-RP-EX-RP and so on, thus having nearly 100% enrage uptime. Enjoy your big crits and hope you dont lose jugger stacks.
The only boss i specc carnage right now is odyn, and maybe helya, on all other bosses massacre is superior.

[Beelz]

on all other bosses massacre is superior.

This is my problem, I see this statement everywhere and I just don't see that in real numbers, my enrage uptime with carnage is far superior than when I roll with massacre and for me massacre does not pull back the numbers in the enrage period alone...am I missing something or is this really a learn to play massacre situation and I need to just preserve ??

[Creraria]

This is my problem, I see this statement everywhere and I just don't see that in real numbers, my enrage uptime with carnage is far superior than when I roll with massacre and for me massacre does not pull back the numbers in the enrage period alone...am I missing something or is this really a learn to play massacre situation and I need to just preserve ??

its only about overall enrage uptime, outside of execute\burst fury dps is fairly weak anyways.
Ofc you want to maximize your enrage uptime, but keep in mind that being enrages in execute is a bigger dps increase than it is when you are pressing BT and Noodle slash

[Sethanor]

i have no clue how you can drop dps with massacre on an average execute-phase-length fight ...

are you using rampage OUTSIDE of massacre procs?
are you dropping jugger stacks?

give more info about your rotation with both talents as it sounds like a bad case of "pressing the wrong buttons"

[Beelz]

"pressing the wrong buttons"

As I've said above, I'm very happy to be called out on hitting the wrong rotation, my understanding with massacre is smash execute as much as poss, use rampage when the poc hits and use BT and RB as fillers for rage when needed.

its only about overall enrage uptime, outside of execute\burst fury dps is fairly weak anyways.
Ofc you want to maximize your enrage uptime, but keep in mind that being enrages in execute is a bigger dps increase than it is when you are pressing BT and Noodle slash

Massacre does perform better in enrage, however that's for a very short window of a fight, I find myself enrage staved with massacre (or at least feels it, due to higher uptime from carnage)...I will post an armoury link in case there is something in there I'm overlooking.

What would you expect as your enrage uptime over the course of a fight? maybe I will look at things from that angle, if carnage gives me higher uptime across the whole fight then I'm not going insane...however if you guys are posting higher enrage up times then I will go back to massacre and try and understand what the hell is different for me...

[Deleted]

maybe this shows you the significance of massacre
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&ability=-5308
its not all about enrage uptime, but execute also does a shit ton of damage!
Ive read somewhere, if your execute phase is at least 30 seconds or longer, then massacre>carnage

[kushlol]

maybe this shows you the significance of massacre
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&ability=-5308
its not all about enrage uptime, but execute also does a shit ton of damage!
Ive read somewhere, if your execute phase is at least 30 seconds or longer, then massacre>carnage

The things I would do to have lust in execute like you

[drukai]

Massacre makes execute phases insane - but without Stone Heart or executable adds it can feel like it's not worth taking. Carnage is mathematically worse though with a normal duration fight - execute gets a huge crit rate bonus, and once you have all 3 gold traits the amount of pure value you get out of Massacre more than makes up for the surprisingly nominal benefit from Carnage. 15 rage really isn't much, even if you're rampaging on 70 every single time (I'm like 95% sure that rampage deals less total damage than FB though - so I don't even know anymore.)

[ElTioRudo]

Hi guys, one question about the rotation, When your press the free rampage there is time to press 2 executes before enrage expires, if the first execute procs rampage, you press rampage or press the second execute to max the enrage uptime?

[Deleted]

Hi guys, one question about the rotation, When your press the free rampage there is time to press 2 executes before enrage expires, if the first execute procs rampage, you press rampage or press the second execute to max the enrage uptime?

I press rampage again if it procs, except if battle cry is up, then spam execute (if enraged)

[orgonutil]

Hi guys, one question about the rotation, When your press the free rampage there is time to press 2 executes before enrage expires, if the first execute procs rampage, you press rampage or press the second execute to max the enrage uptime?

i am with 33% haste and i can press 3 executes before enrage expires, the decision to when i press rampage again if i have a proc on first is based in the amount of rage that i have, i usually do 3 executes with 75+ rage, 2 executes if i have 50+ rage and only one execute if i have less than 50 and rampage procs

[Thogroic]

I have also noticed a strong decrease in dps with massacre(16-20%), but then again i dont really do a lot of mythic raiding. In hc bosses dont live long enough for Massacre to even out or top carnage in dmg for me. I have not yet been blessed with the leg ring or the helm , so until then, carnage really helps smooth out the rotation and increases enrage uptime alot. I have about 47% mastery and 15 % crit and 32% haste. I can rampage every second rotation, meaning mostly bt,rb,fs,bt,rampage/rb,rb/rampage,...repeat. Without Carnage its delayed by a further cycle and if i dont get lucky on bt crits I loose enrage uptime + I also have to use fs more often and that alone is a dps decrease.

[Zaehl]

Every sim I do of my character, as well as my own in-game testing, has massacre ahead of rampage in DPS in all situations.

[Thogroic]

Every sim I do of my character, as well as my own in-game testing, has massacre ahead of rampage in DPS in all situations.

It is true that the normal simc template shows that massacre sims higher, however the rotation is a little flawed imho.

Ive played around with simc code last couple hours and coded it to fit my rotation and prio list. The results show i should do just about as much damage with carnage, as I do with massacre. 473k massacre vs 472k with carnage.
(Massacre dps was calculated using standard simc temp, Carnage dps was calculated using my custom temp)
Accordingly, the shorter the execute phase the higher the dmg will be in favor of Carnage.(That is ofc again assuming you do not have leg. helm or leg. ring)


If you want to check it out. Maybe I made a mistake i dunno. Feel free to correct me.

__________________________________________________________________________________________ ___
SIMC EDITOR

actions+=/avatar,if=buff.battle_cry.up|(target.time_to_die<(cooldown.battle_cry.remains+14))



actions.single_target=bloodthirst,if=buff.fujiedas_fury.up&buff.fujiedas_fury.remains<2&bu ff.battle_cry.down

actions.single_target+=/execute,if=(artifact.juggernaut.enabled&(!buff.juggernaut.up|buff.juggernaut.remains<2))

actions.single_target+=/rampage,if=(rage>=95&(target.health.pct>=20))

actions.single_target+=/dragon_roar,if=cooldown.battle_cry.remains>=25|cooldown.battle_cry.remains<=2

actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst,if=buff.enrage.down&buff.battle_cry.up

actions.single_target+=/execute,if=buff.enrage.up&buff.battle_cry.up

actions.single_target+=/raging_blow,if=buff.battle_cry.up&buff.enrage.up

actions.single_target+=/odyns_fury,if=buff.battle_cry.up&buff.enrage.up&(target.health.pct>=20)

actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst,if=buff.enrage.down

actions.single_target+=/rampage,if=buff.juggernaut.down&buff.enrage.down

actions.single_target+=/raging_blow,if=buff.juggernaut.down&buff.enrage.up

actions.single_target+=/rampage,if=buff.juggernaut.down&buff.enrage.remains<=1

actions.single_target+=/execute,if=(talent.inner_rage.enabled|!talent.inner_rage.enabled&rage>50)

actions.single_target+=/raging_blow,if=buff.enrage.down

actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst

actions.single_target+=/raging_blow

actions.single_target+=/execute

actions.single_target+=/furious_slash

[Zaehl]

It is true that the normal simc template shows that massacre sims higher, however the rotation is a little flawed imho.

There are absolutely times when carnage can be the better choice, the biggest of those being if you lack certain legendaries. I am just saying, in my own findings, massacre has been an improvement for me (and I do not have any good legendaries). It is always a good idea for everyone to sim themselves, be it AMR or SimC or another method, to find what will work with your current gear choice.