Who should i believe about best Outlaw stat ?

[Misstigris]

Hello everyone,

With the new patch 7.1.5, i ask myself witch stats would fit me the best. (I play Outlaw)

So i run AskMrRobot and that say i should go Mastery > Versatility > Haste > Critical Strike.
Then i try with SimCraft (the new 7.1.5 version) witch tell me Haste > Crit > Vers > Mastery.

The Sim look pretty the same in point of DPS (440k AMR and 467k SC) and the repartition of DPS. Both Sim are done with a single target and my current stuff.

I'm now confused about what to do and who believe. Should i look for items with Mastery/Vers or Haste/Crit ?
Or maybe both Sim are right but i run it wrong ...

I play on EU Ner'zhul and my caracter name is Misstigris (can't link directly my armory)

If anyone have a clue or an advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

Misstigris

PS : sorry for my bad english

[upliftin]

The thing is: let's say you need to prioritize mastery, when you'll reach a certain amount of it, your statweights will change. So everytime you need to sim

[Deleted]

Can't see how you sim for so high dps. Got better stats (35% crit, 40% mast, 12% vers, 11% hast) and I sim for 350k

[leeboy]

Can't see how you sim for so high dps. Got better stats (35% crit, 40% mast, 12% vers, 11% hast) and I sim for 350k

Raw agility and better trinkets I assume. You seem to be low compared to my toon as I sim the same as OP with similar stats.

[Misstigris]

Thanks for you quick answers.

The thing is: let's say you need to prioritize mastery, when you'll reach a certain amount of it, your statweights will change. So everytime you need to sim

I know that the value of stat change everytime you change them. I just can't figure it out witch stats i should focus with my current stuff ?

Can't see how you sim for so high dps. Got better stats (35% crit, 40% mast, 12% vers, 11% hast) and I sim for 350k

I have juste import my caracter in AMR and it's give me arround 440k DPS. It was against a single target. (My stat are : Agi 28k, 35.7% crit, Haste 7.14%, Mastery 46.74%, Versa 8.23%)
Maybe it's because AMR rate higher mastery.
Or maybe AMR is completly wrong ?

[kindath]

I know that the value of stat change everytime you change them. I just can't figure it out witch stats i should focus with my current stuff ?

Simcraft stats are a snapshot of your current gear, AMR stats are overall. So with your current gear, you need more haste and crit, but overall mastery and versatility tend to be better.

[Deleted]

Mastery is by far your worse stat for Outlaw, that´s just amr being all around bad as usual.

[Misstigris]

Thanks for your advices.
So i'm gonna stick with the recommandation from SimCraft that show me what stat i currently need with my stuff.

[Zoopercat]

@Misstigris - We updated the rogue defaults later yesterday afternoon, so check again. Also, it's ideal to run custom stat weights, here's a picture tutorial on how to do that http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

Or if you give me your character name and realm, I can run some tests for you.

Also, our "Machine Learning" approach to gear is actually really great for outlaw rogues in particular. The idea is this: we sim your character over a wide range of gear and item levels. Then we look at stat combos that do the most damage, maybe 2 stats should be balanced. The machine learning approach does this, whereas stat weights don't do that very well, since one is always weighted higher.

The other nice thing about machine learning, is that as your gear changes, we have data for it already. So the stat goals get auto-adjusted as you get more gear

[Alfador]

For what it's worth, I've noticed a couple of things with outlaw and simcraft

1) due to the nature of the RtB you can get variance even in 5k or 10k sample size sims (I've run 10k twice with the same parameters and literally gotten different top stats) If you can stomach the extra time, set it to at least 50k iterations when you do an outlaw run for weights.

2) Possibly for similar reasons regarding roll the bones, and the dependencies of a couple of skills, I've noticed that even small gear changes can affect your relative weights a lot more than with most specs, so even after minor changes, consider re-simming.

AMR's ranking for upgrades is pretty good I think, but to excho what Zooper said, you absolutely should consider running custom weights either on AMR's own simulation or on simulationcraft and plug those weights into the upgrade tool.

[TheCuts]

@Misstigris - We updated the rogue defaults later yesterday afternoon, so check again. Also, it's ideal to run custom stat weights, here's a picture tutorial on how to do that (Your URL, I cannot post because of my account's age)

Or if you give me your character name and realm, I can run some tests for you.

Also, our "(Your URL, I cannot post because of my account's age)" approach to gear is actually really great for outlaw rogues in particular. The idea is this: we sim your character over a wide range of gear and item levels. Then we look at stat combos that do the most damage, maybe 2 stats should be balanced. The machine learning approach does this, whereas stat weights don't do that very well, since one is always weighted higher.

The other nice thing about machine learning, is that as your gear changes, we have data for it already. So the stat goals get auto-adjusted as you get more gear

Zooper, have you personally played around with simulation craft and compared the stat values? Is it just from how abilities are prioritized (Rotation, opener, etc.)? Is it possible to tell us how the stat weights are generated? Thank you for your help!

[Deleted]

askmisterrobot is horrible for simming your gear. Simcraft was and is always better.

[Misstigris]

To Zoopercat:

Thanks a lot for your explanations.

I follow the tutorial then i start running a simulation in normal mode (after downloading the programme on my computer), using my current stuff, my current template and mythic+ set at "none". For this first simulation i didn't check the "machin learning" (i run the sim and then saw that you might change "stat weight - machine learning") but i will run a 2nd one after with machine learnining activate.

When you say : "it's ideal to run custom stat weights" you mean using the learning machine or giving fix numbers (but which numbers) ?

My caracter name and real are : Misstigris - Ner'zhul (EU)

I also read the machine learning explanation and that clearly show that this approche is perfectly disgn for outlaw rogue.

Really appreciate your help in all that statistiques.

[Deleted]

It's simple - Don't play Outlaw, it's shit.

[Zoopercat]

@Misstigris - good questions. When I say custom, I mean stat weights that you ran specific to your character on a simulator. On our reports, you can swap between the stat weight method and the machine learning one - no need to run a new one. Just pull up the report (click on the simulator menu item at the top right of the page, and go to 'browse reports.' Check machine learning and save it again.
@TheCuts our theorycrafter spends a lot of time working with our simulator and SimC. I don't think he's has a chance to look at the SimC version of outlaw since the patch, but will soon.

You also asked how the stat weights are generated. Here's some info:

1. We look at 1000s of data points (SimC looks at 2 per stat, one above and one below your gear)
2. We look at how the stats interact (SimC stat weights look at each stat in isolation, not accounting for interactions. However, the reforge plots on SimC do look at stat interactions).
3. Trinkets, legendaries, set bonuses and anything with a proc doesn't rank well from stat weights. Since that ends up being half of your gear, it's important to rank those well. So when you run a custom 'gearing strategy' (stat weights) on our simulator, we also simulate every single item with a proc, AND we do that over various iLevels. We then bundle that info in the stat weight report, and use that data to rank all procs directly from simulations.

Our 'gearing strategy' therefor takes longer to run than SimC, but it is doing a lot more simulations over more data, with stat interactions and proc data.

Hope that helps, and hit me up with follow up questions.

[elfporn]

askmisterrobot is horrible for simming your gear. Simcraft was and is always better.

The entire AMR platform was completely rebuilt for Legion and is actually as good as or better than simcraft if you know how to use it properly.

- - - Updated - - -

It's simple - Don't play Outlaw, it's shit.

Its not. Outlaw is much closer to the other specs now.

Yours is an Outdated opinion.

[TheCuts]

Thanks for the reply Zooper! I guess it was due to looking at stat weight in isolation that made mastery rank so highly before? I get it a bit more now though, and when I get a chance I will look into simming my character with the machine learning. I appreciate all the help you give on the forums.

[Deleted]

If you look at a sim repport and look at energy generation, You will notice that around 1/3 of your energy regen is due to the mastery. I think it's why mastery get a great weight.

[Misstigris]

@Misstigris - good questions. When I say custom, I mean stat weights that you ran specific to your character on a simulator. On our reports, you can swap between the stat weight method and the machine learning one - no need to run a new one. Just pull up the report (click on the simulator menu item at the top right of the page, and go to 'browse reports.' Check machine learning and save it again.

Thanks for your answers. I can now use AMR more accurently. I find my actuel own stats weight (7.74 versa - 7.6 mastery - 7.59 crit - 6.05 haste)

With my current gear and talent i try to find a new trinket for my Eye of command 865 (+1489 agi and 150*10 crit). But the gear optimizer show that the new legendary trinket Kil'jeaden's burning wish (+2264 agi - 408 crit - 408 haste - 408 mastery and the proc) is worst. Is it right ?
And when i sim with the legendary trinket i gain arround 16k DPS.

Maybe it's because i use the gear optimizer with 3 legendary ? Or is it a different reason ?