Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
  1. #201
    Mehh.

    I still don't really care if they do or don't, but I think it'd be stupid if they don't allow AC switches. All I know is... I won't be rolling two of the same class just to play the other AC. Cannot. Be. Bothered.
    My Cracked articles, writing blog, and Twitter.

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

    Want to chat with people who aren't idiots? Join our IRC.

  2. #202
    High Overlord morderith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I am not the one making the claim that AC == separate class. I do not need to prove anything. And all so called "ample evidence" was debunked by me and others.
    You arent claiming that AC == seperate class instead you are the one making the claim that AC's == same class, so you do need to provide evidence that hasn't been debunked for it, as all evidence you and others have provided has been debunked by others in the same fashion that you say you have debunked the reasons provided for the case that AC == seperate classes. So unless you accept, as I believe others have, that the debunking that has gone on both sides is not objective and does not instantly invalidate the reasons given. So we have to judge based on which provides the better evidence. As far as I can tell your arguments are that they share the same class story arc's and that they share a small amount of base abilities, which is hardly compelling at all.
    Last edited by morderith; 2011-10-25 at 09:26 AM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by morderith View Post
    As far as I can tell your arguments are that they share the same class story arc's and that they share a small amount of base abilities, which is hardly compelling at all.
    "Small"?
    So.... story - check, companions - check, ship - check, base class abilities - check (which are not few), 1 shared talent tree - check
    That's what they have in common. Now for differences:
    2 unique talent trees for 1-2 roles and a set of spec abilities.

    So basically you are asking me to provide evidence that all 2 versions (guardian, sentinel) of Jedi Knight are really Jedi Knights?
    So basically you are asking me to provide evidence that all 4 versions (sedan, 2 hatchbacks and SUV) of Ford Focus are really Ford Focuses?

    They are Jedi Knights:
    1. Logically
    2. Hierarchically
    3. Lore-wise

    No need to prove THAT.

  4. #204
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    4,484
    I'm going to give this thread a chance to continue. But you all have to help.

    The thread is "Should we be able to switch AC at 50?" It's turned into semantics on what an AC is. Of course the 2 topics merge together, but it's also a topic that the 2 sides won't give in on. So let's drop it. Ample "facts" were given on the topic.

    So let's get back to the topic, or we'll lock up the thread.

    My SWTOR guild: www.radguild.com
    USA West Coast PvP server: The Bastion
    Get your Game of Thrones on at Winteriscoming.net

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombikilla View Post
    1) Everyone who picks up the game is going to know exactly what they'll want to play at end-game, and knows exactly what role they'll want to fill (let alone something like the class's playstyle)
    2) All MMOs are story driven, SWTOR just forces you to pay attention to it.
    3) Yes it will, chances are one AC will be better than another for min/max purposes.
    4) Expecting people to level 8 characters to experience 4 classes is insane and a good way to burn out your game's population very quickly.
    5) Your class is your class you chose at creation, the AC is honestly just a cool way of customizing that same class a bit further.
    6) People can level all the way to max as a role and have no idea to play it. There have always been players who suck at their role, using respecs to misappropriate blame is wrong imo.
    7) If you don't let people switch ACs; then you're still going to see that massive switch, just with a lot more effort put into something that is marginally better. (People will always want you to be min/max, imagine if you had to reroll your paladin because you speced ret instead of holy?)
    1. You should know what you want to play in general, if you want to dps purely then pick an ac that allows that, you dont roll a rogue to max level and say damn i want to tank.
    3. This is a class balance issue, if the balancing is done correctly than all specs should be close, and if 1 AC has a 2% advantage over another and the max/min folks want to cash in on that spec then re-roll.
    4. Its not expectation its design, to experience the entire story of the game you would need to roll 4 empire and 4 republic toons 1 of each class on each side. totaling 8 characters and you could do 1 unique AC on each toon.
    5. The AC gets a COMPLETELY different set of abilities, with a small common pool of abilities, they also have different armor proficiencies
    6. AC switching only worsens this phenomenon
    7. Or you WON'T see a switch because it is not allowed and people will stick with the unique advanced class that they pick and played and let the dev team iron out the balancing issues. FOTM players should have to re-roll.

    Hypothetically lets say leveling as a Operative is alot harder then leveling as a Sniper, you do your 40 levels as an operative learning your class, roles, abilities and along comes a person who played a sniper face rolled through everything and at 50 finds out "operatives are OP yo" and all of a sudden can switch classes to the AC that was more difficult to level but at 50 is awesome. It just doesn't make sense and it is bad for the game.

    I am a max/min person, but more so than that I would hate to see SWTOR caught in a case of FOTM players who switch to the most op AC for that month. You go into a Warzone and there are 8 Jedi Sages on the opposing team or 8 Tank Jedi.

    I'd rather see some true balancing that Blizzard has so desperately failed at. That makes whatever a player chooses viable, so you're AC choice ,which you made because it appealed to you, viable at max level and beyond.
    Last edited by jearle; 2011-10-25 at 02:54 PM.

  6. #206
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    548
    People seem to be missing that the difference between ACs are as different as say a Warrior is to a Rogue as to a DK.
    Yes they are are melee classes but they are different. ACs are a method of adding more story to your character. I seriously hope you can not switch ACs.
    Adding bewbs to his Avatar since 2011

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by the9tail View Post
    ACs are a method of adding more story to your character.
    I guess I don't understand that statement. Story as in... personal story and play through experience?

  8. #208
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    548
    For example, you start out as a Smuggler. You learn the ropes and you do your first few missions and then you are given a choice to be trained as Gunslinger or Scoundrel. These are totally different progressions, with different talent trees and different abilities. Your life as a Smuggler was just introduction to your actual class choice - healer/ranged dps (eg. a priest in WoW terms) or a specialised ranged dps (eg. a mage).

    The game is about a characters story, from humble beginnings you become the best in your chosen field.
    Adding bewbs to his Avatar since 2011

  9. #209
    But won't all your class quests be the same, be it Gunslinger or Scoundrel?

  10. #210
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    4,484
    Quote Originally Posted by jsg388 View Post
    But won't all your class quests be the same, be it Gunslinger or Scoundrel?
    Yes they will be.

    My SWTOR guild: www.radguild.com
    USA West Coast PvP server: The Bastion
    Get your Game of Thrones on at Winteriscoming.net

  11. #211
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Santa Destroy
    Posts
    1,566
    Meh. This whole argument about "totally different classes just look at SI ACs" to me is like saying moonkin/resto should never be able to respec into "cat/bear tank" without leveling from ground up because they play differently and use different resources and stats. Prot warrior plays differently than fury. Sub rogue plays different than combat. Fire plays different than arcane.

    Heres my conserns:

    How will pure dps stand out?
    There is no hybrid tax. This means Juggernaut can dps at same level (ideally) as marauder and still be able to fill 2 roles by will.
    Operative can (ideally) do same dps as Sniper and operative can still be healer if needed.
    There is only 2 pure dps ACs from 8. Are people ready to accept the fact that you wont be recruited because you only do dmg and other ACs can fill your duty as well as other role? In wow rogues are now concerned because they are only pure melee left and they have to compete against warriors, cats, dks and in future monks. Why bring rogue is the biggest concern people have. On some cases rogues are often benched or not recruited because warrior can just dps at same level and respec into tank someday.
    Why this might not be so bad: PvP balance - if someone wants to pick marauder purely due pvp then go right ahead. Casual play, flashpoint balance wont matter so much. Hardcore operation play - min maxers want the possible debuffs pures bring, casually playing guilds might want more flexible ACs however (missing tank? respec, dps minmax not that important in this case).

    Balance?
    What if someone picks poorly balanced AC but the counter AC would be better? Is it fair to make them level 200 hours again just because they had no idea? Nothing can be more frustrating than realising that people want Operatives not snipers and you picked sniper.
    It might be player problem sure, but its quite punishment to make them level totally again (heck I would even get 200h cooldown on the respec).
    It could very well go against the game at the start specially "so I picked wrong AC and got gear..but no one wants me because I suck at dps? Great thats 300 hours gametime wasted, screw this". It might feel too much gimp to pick pure dps AC rather than healer/tank dps AC.."never know what Im gonna end up doing".
    I would go into finer details but currently I cant and you know because of why..

    Early recruitment.
    Kinda two of those conserns in one. Not gonna go into too much detail but for example in wow currently hybrids who can fill 2 roles are more attractive and even when wow is established and long running game theres still problems of recruiting tanks/healers. At start people are scattered, guilds have 4 people in it, lots of people want to build their own guild rather than join one etc so trying to get people can be hard (which granted can also be good thing for pure dps as they have no other choice so they gotta get you maybe).


    In the end I'm fine either way, but those are my concerns specially towards pure dps. I actually dont mind about "healer/dps - tank/dps" ACs not being able to switch. I would go as far as say warrior/Jknight and smugglers/IA should be able to respec someway sometime (maybe with major patches or so like wow resets talents if they change too much or with 300h+ cooldown)
    "when women wear makeup they’re basically lying to us"
    Well, I don’t see why women are being blamed if man is stupid enough to really think they have red and gold eyelids.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceleaf View Post

    Heres my conserns:
    SNIP
    Your entire post revolves around guild issues and whether or not you will find a guild based on a spec and utility of some classes versus others. Not only that but you are referring solely on WoW for a reference, when they have tried effortlessly to homogenize the classes in the game. Why? Because if they make all the classes more the same, there is less bitching due to balance.

    With this type of thinking there shouldn't be any differentiation in classes and have all 4 be able to do each role that way nobody will be left out.

    Most people don't play the game with the mindset of "What class/spec is going to yield me the best chance of getting into good guild or raid".

    Some people want to play a dual wielding pure DPS force using badass with a mohawk, and don't want to ever tank so not having that in their spec they can't be asked, "hey you think you could tank for us?".

    Erasing the lines between ACs and allowing easy change will water down the game IMO. The developers didn't intend it to be an option and are only considering putting it in the game in some fashion due to an outcry from a loud whiney minority.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    Erasing the lines between ACs and allowing easy change will water down the game
    Agreed.
    Erasing the lines will trivialise the AC concept IMO.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    Erasing the lines between ACs and allowing easy change will water down the game IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by rift View Post
    Agreed.
    Erasing the lines will trivialise the AC concept IMO.
    Would you stop using idioms and vague terms and just explain in details what the hell do you mean by that? Cause I do not get it. Are you against convenience or something?

  15. #215
    Scarab Lord Trollsbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    4,484
    I think this thread has hit it's limit.

    Closing.

    My SWTOR guild: www.radguild.com
    USA West Coast PvP server: The Bastion
    Get your Game of Thrones on at Winteriscoming.net

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •