Holy Pally Question

[tylerdelgado17]

My pally is fairly geared. i have heroic jaw, heroic eyes. and quite a few pieces of heroic tier and gear as well.

First was wondering what people were thinking about the pally 4 set. I dont have the helm from rag but i do have the heroic helm from baleroc. if i were to use my 4 set i would need to use shoulders, gloves, legs and chest. Also my trinkets were questions as well. i have bis trinkets besides sinestra, but i wont have that for long time if at atll. what do people thinkt he best trinkets are for me to use i can use revered one, tusunami one, fall, heroic jaws, and heroic eys

i cant put my armory link up. but character name is dudeurdead. on Hellscream server. alliance us. im welcome to all help i can get.

[Emaias]

First off, do you raid 25 mans or 10 mans? Cause if so it plays a big role in your heal style. I'm would assume 10 mans as thats what most people who most on this forum do, but you are using Glyph of LOD which is primarily a 25 man glyph so I'll judge you off that.

I'll help with your talents / glyphs first since gear is easy to obtain and doesn't measure skill or your abilities as a player to make smart decisions

Glyphs / Talents
You use glyph of holy shock? Why? Glyph of Divine Favor is vastly superior in every situation. I wouldn't recommend glyph of holy shock unless perhaps you were a crit / mastery paladin which obviously you aren't
Next, you have an abundance of spirit more then I have and im 7/7 25man Heroic; 3 healing rag. I assume you are working on Heroic Rag since you have Glyph of Holy Wrath (I pray you don't just leave that glyph in out of laziness) so I would take out glyph of Divine Plea or Glyph of Light of Dawn and replace it with Divine Protection. All damage you take in that fight from a healer PoV is Magic and it happens quite frequently, most of which is a significant source of damage. And using DP every trap in P1, and every seed explosion in P2, and then it becomes invaluable when you have to follow the tank across the platform in P4 where you are building stacks up and aren't able to clear them for quite some time. I'd personally replace glyph of Divine plea as there is enough down time that fight to regen plenty.

Your talents are odd as well. Well the fact that you only put 1 point into Blessed Life. It has been debated before wither or not that talent is junk or not in PvE. I personally say it is not. Every ability heroic rag does can trigger it, but having only 1/2 is pointless. Now, some may disagree with me, but seeing as I did well over 580 pulls on him, and have killed him, and have been a boulder punter as a paladin I can tell you this. You DO NOT need Imp judge for that fight. His hit box in the first 3 phases is the size of Azeroth, so the only way you can be out of range to judge is if you stand in the far back of the platform which does 1 of 2 things, puts you in a position where Engulfing Flame can and WILL hit you; or you are pretty much saying "Hit me with Wrath I wanna go lava swimming" If you take a look at this picture of rags platform you can see a perfect spot to stand. It is right in between the 1st and 2nd Engulfing zones, practically still in his melee hit box, and save from the melee knockbacl/silence.
So you can drop the point in Imp Judge and place it in Blessed Life to make it 2/2. Now, its strictly a personal preference but I don't pick up Sacred Cleansing in a 25 man setting. Why? Cause Priests can dispel magic without a wasted talent, and can do it at a lesser mana cost then us. This can be argued either way, but picking up a talent for just one mechanic in the entire raid which is easily avoidable is a waste compared to an obvious throughput talent.

Gear/Gems/Enchants/Reforges
Now I notice that you have some heroic pieces, but I hope you're not going right for ILevel. You are not at the 1859 haste cap which is a significant throughput talent, there are multiple things you can do to fix this.
1) Get the chest of Alys, or even the chest off Heroic Halfus (PuG's can do this blindfolded)
2) Drape of the Twins from the Twin dragons in BoT. Granted this isnt as accessible to do on Heroic with a pug cause it requires a brain, so It'll be last on the upgrade list.
3) The Tier Helm from Normal Rag is far superior to the 391 you have on (Unless you are far beyond haste cap)
Doing those will give you the haste you need to reach the cap

Heroic Eyes is pretty crap; It has the LONG 45 second ICD, and on top of that can proc at the worst times and completely waste the proc. I'd switch to either Heroic Fall of Mortality, or get DMC: Tsunami. Preferably Tsunami as it offers passive Regen / Proc (Unless you are good with tracking buffs to use with DP)

To answer your main question though "Is the 4pc good at all" No it's not. Compared to the other healers ours does a small chunk of our healing ~5% on a good rng attempt. Honestly it's only worth getting if you have all 4 pc's of heroic tier just like last tier. The int that you will gain from Non Heroic Tier pieces will make up for it (If you are good on haste cap that is)

[tylerdelgado17]

First off im healing in a 10 man guild. Second the reason i was using light of dawn i thought it would be good for when we were stacking. Yes im using the glyph to help with adds. the reason i am running with so much spirit it seems like im doing most of the healing on rag. im pushing about 20k after this first phase. and im at 25 percent before i use divine plea. the reason i had only one point was i wasn't actually switching specs for all fights.

Regarding gear my guild has the worst luck ever. i have not seen normal or heroic razor drop a chest or from halfus drop any loot for me. and we have yet to see a pally teir helm drop witch is stupid lol. also i thought the main reason for the haste cap was for holy radiance. The gear u saw me in was the best i am capabale of getting.

like the feedback if u got more im happy for any help.

[Tiberria]

I use that setup; I have the 391 tier chest, legs, gloves and shoulders with the offset Baleroc helm. To be honest, the only reason that I have it setup this way is because Clutch of the Firemother (Alysrazor BiS haste/spirit chest) has not dropped once in nearly 4 full months of clearing Firelands.

The 4 set is OK, but not great. It gives anywhere from 1.5-3% extra output on most 25 man fights. If you are able to balance your haste to the point that you can get to 1860 for the 14th holy radiance tick while using that setup (I am able to get to 1880), I think it's worth going for. If you can't get to that haste threshold with the 4 piece (without the tier helm), it's probably not worthwhile, because the combination of the extra HR tick and the extra output from having the better itemized haste pieces will at best be a wash and at worst be an output downgrade. To get to that point, you are going to need some combination of the Sinestra bracers, Sinestra or H Valiona cloak and the crafted boots.

---------- Post added 2011-10-20 at 01:27 PM ----------

Heroic Eyes is pretty crap; It has the LONG 45 second ICD, and on top of that can proc at the worst times and completely waste the proc. I'd switch to either Heroic Fall of Mortality, or get DMC: Tsunami. Preferably Tsunami as it offers passive Regen / Proc (Unless you are good with tracking buffs to use with DP)

To answer your main question though "Is the 4pc good at all" No it's not. Compared to the other healers ours does a small chunk of our healing ~5% on a good rng attempt. Honestly it's only worth getting if you have all 4 pc's of heroic tier just like last tier. The int that you will gain from Non Heroic Tier pieces will make up for it (If you are good on haste cap that is)

I'm going to correct you on some things here. There's no question that our 4 piece is weaker than priest healers' and resto druids'. However, it is an average of 2.5% extra output. That sounds like crap, but when you actually work it out, it's probably superior to the better stat allocation you're going to get from not taking the set bonus. Getting to 1860 haste and getting that 14th Holy Radiance tick is a 7% increase to the output of Holy Radiance. Assuming Holy Radiance is 20% of your healing (which is actually a little higher than it is on most fights), it's a 1.5% throughput increase. Yes, there are some additional increases in output from having more haste versus crit/mastery, but the 3 stats are not that far apart, at least not since 4.2. In addition, what you're advocating that he do (using the 372 Magmaw chest over a 391 tier chest) is going to cost him a lot of INT for the sake of having more haste over crit/mastery. INT is better than every other stat for us by a factor of probably 3:1. Not to mention, the only off-tier piece that has haste on it is the Alysrazor chest. Also, the 4pc is very nice for Heroic Rag, because the tank that isn't currently tanking has Burning Wound ticking, and the splash heal will hit the other tank.

391 Eye is also not a crap trinket. I would love to replace it with 391 Jaws of Defeat if it would ever start dropping again, but I use it over 372 Fall of Mortality, Tyrande's Favorite Doll, DMC: Tsunami, etc. It's a smart heal that typically has very low overheal (20% or less) and accounts for about 3% of my output. If I have ever had mana issues, I'd swap in Fall of Mortality. But, you also have to consider the INT difference. Going to something like DMC: Tsunami is a loss of 107 INT in addition to 3% output from the trinket proc. That's probably a bad tradeoff unless you absolutely need the mana.

[Emaias]

All I can say is using eye as a paladin you're simply going for "Zomg Int" and not benefical stats

[Tiberria]

All I can say is using eye as a paladin you're simply going for "Zomg Int" and not benefical stats

Because INT isn't a beneficial stat, let alone our most beneficial stat? And throughput is useless as well. Like I said, if your regen can not support not using 2 regen trinkets, then it should not be used. However, the decision to use Eye versus a regen trinket is the same for paladins as for everyone else. Actually, from my experience, it procs more and generates more output for holy paladins than for any other healing class for some reason.

[natijs4]

First off, do you raid 25 mans or 10 mans? Cause if so it plays a big role in your heal style. I'm would assume 10 mans as thats what most people who most on this forum do, but you are using Glyph of LOD which is primarily a 25 man glyph so I'll judge you off that.

I'll help with your talents / glyphs first since gear is easy to obtain and doesn't measure skill or your abilities as a player to make smart decisions

Glyphs / Talents
You use glyph of holy shock? Why? Glyph of Divine Favor is vastly superior in every situation. I wouldn't recommend glyph of holy shock unless perhaps you were a crit / mastery paladin which obviously you aren't
Next, you have an abundance of spirit more then I have and im 7/7 25man Heroic; 3 healing rag. I assume you are working on Heroic Rag since you have Glyph of Holy Wrath (I pray you don't just leave that glyph in out of laziness) so I would take out glyph of Divine Plea or Glyph of Light of Dawn and replace it with Divine Protection. All damage you take in that fight from a healer PoV is Magic and it happens quite frequently, most of which is a significant source of damage. And using DP every trap in P1, and every seed explosion in P2, and then it becomes invaluable when you have to follow the tank across the platform in P4 where you are building stacks up and aren't able to clear them for quite some time. I'd personally replace glyph of Divine plea as there is enough down time that fight to regen plenty.

Your talents are odd as well. Well the fact that you only put 1 point into Blessed Life. It has been debated before wither or not that talent is junk or not in PvE. I personally say it is not. Every ability heroic rag does can trigger it, but having only 1/2 is pointless. Now, some may disagree with me, but seeing as I did well over 580 pulls on him, and have killed him, and have been a boulder punter as a paladin I can tell you this. You DO NOT need Imp judge for that fight. His hit box in the first 3 phases is the size of Azeroth, so the only way you can be out of range to judge is if you stand in the far back of the platform which does 1 of 2 things, puts you in a position where Engulfing Flame can and WILL hit you; or you are pretty much saying "Hit me with Wrath I wanna go lava swimming" If you take a look at this picture of rags platform you can see a perfect spot to stand. It is right in between the 1st and 2nd Engulfing zones, practically still in his melee hit box, and save from the melee knockbacl/silence.
So you can drop the point in Imp Judge and place it in Blessed Life to make it 2/2. Now, its strictly a personal preference but I don't pick up Sacred Cleansing in a 25 man setting. Why? Cause Priests can dispel magic without a wasted talent, and can do it at a lesser mana cost then us. This can be argued either way, but picking up a talent for just one mechanic in the entire raid which is easily avoidable is a waste compared to an obvious throughput talent.

Gear/Gems/Enchants/Reforges
Now I notice that you have some heroic pieces, but I hope you're not going right for ILevel. You are not at the 1859 haste cap which is a significant throughput talent, there are multiple things you can do to fix this.
1) Get the chest of Alys, or even the chest off Heroic Halfus (PuG's can do this blindfolded)
2) Drape of the Twins from the Twin dragons in BoT. Granted this isnt as accessible to do on Heroic with a pug cause it requires a brain, so It'll be last on the upgrade list.
3) The Tier Helm from Normal Rag is far superior to the 391 you have on (Unless you are far beyond haste cap)
Doing those will give you the haste you need to reach the cap

Heroic Eyes is pretty crap; It has the LONG 45 second ICD, and on top of that can proc at the worst times and completely waste the proc. I'd switch to either Heroic Fall of Mortality, or get DMC: Tsunami. Preferably Tsunami as it offers passive Regen / Proc (Unless you are good with tracking buffs to use with DP)

To answer your main question though "Is the 4pc good at all" No it's not. Compared to the other healers ours does a small chunk of our healing ~5% on a good rng attempt. Honestly it's only worth getting if you have all 4 pc's of heroic tier just like last tier. The int that you will gain from Non Heroic Tier pieces will make up for it (If you are good on haste cap that is)

You can calm down with the condescending tone. Most of this advice is decent. Some of it is not. E.g. In your only Rag kill, Blessed life gave you 10 holy power in a 12 minute fight. That seems like an enormous waste of 2 points. My advice would be to max out Improved Judgement, since in a 10 man, you probably need all the dps you can in phase 3. And if you get some bad RNG, the meteor can be headed to your side multiple times in a row, so if you didn't punt it the second it came in range, things are going to get tricky on your side. Clearly, you don't take Imp Judgement to judge Rag, it's to punt meteors.

As for 4 piece/gear, the helm, shoulders and legs are all best in slot, regardless of set bonus. The gloves are about equal to the Rhyolith ones, but since you are below the haste breakpoint, they are actually probably an upgrade for you. So it makes sense to get it. You are well below the haste breakpoint and have no way to easily get there. Getting the tier chest/gloves on normal would bump you up about 140 haste. Getting the heroic versions would obviously get you closer. Another option is the Majordomo neck, since it is BiS and has a good chunk of haste. For trinkets, I would suggest Tsunami and H Jaws.

Lastly, if you are going to go back to T11 stuff, the H Magmaw chest is your biggest upgrade, not the H V&T cloak or H tier chest. But at this point in time, it doesn't make sense for most guilds to do that kind of stuff, so just pick up gear where you can and try to get to that haste breakpoint.

[Tiberria]

Blessed Life is a marginal talent. Taking the 2nd point in it is even more marginal. The problem with taking 2/2 is the 8 second ICD. In a lot of cases, the events that trigger BL come in a barrage and are limited to certain points of the fight. I can't find it right now, but I think an analysis was done showing that the 2nd point in Blessed Life only increases the amount of HP gained from the talent by like 20%. Considering that 1/2 Blessed Life on Heroic rag gives you about 1 HP every 1.5-2 minutes, the 1st point is a very weak use of a talent point; the second point is a near complete waste. You definitely will get more output from the extra beacon transfer from going 2/2 Enlightened Judgements instead of 1/2 than you get from either talent point in BL.

Honestly, the biggest upgrades from the T11 stuff all come from Sinestra. The Sinestra cloak and bracers are BiS. Basically, this is because they both have yellow sockets, and no T12 gear has yellow sockets, and the meta requires 2 yellow gems. The 379 Sinestra bracers are superior in every way to even the 391 Shannox bracers, because the meta requirement and socket means that the Sinestra bracers actually give you more INT than the 391 bracers, not to mention giving you haste instead of mastery. The cloak is also best in slot because it has haste and has the second yellow socket you need. The only 391 caster cloak option is spirit/mastery, and is absolutely terrible for holy paladins. Again, with the meta requirements, you would actually end up with slightly less INT using that cloak versus the 379 one in addition to losing haste.

[Emaias]

E.g. In your only Rag kill, Blessed life gave you 10 holy power in a 12 minute fight. That seems like an enormous waste of 2 points.

As stated, you're never out of range from rag unless you're somewhere you shouldn't be. I.E The back of the platform. If you bothered to read the entirety of the post instead of skimming you would see I explained that, and even gave a picture to show an ideal place to stand where you pose no danger to yourself or the raid. 10 more Holy Power is still 10 more Holy Power. So, gaining that over imp judge (Which you DON'T need) is an increase in throughput.

Also Blessed life is a way to get an edge on the healing in situations where you are moving and the tank is in trouble. For example running from the seeds in P2, as a paladin you are a stationary healer. So using Holy Shock isn't exactly "Life saver stuff" and since there are no logs on him I cant tell the other healer(s) he's running with. Sure, you can save HP and build it up, but thats not always an option. As to where if you're running and you get a HP proc from the seeds exploding and the tank is under 35% then it's pretty much an instant 20k heal. If anything blessed life is better in 10 man over 25 man since every bit of healing can make a difference. Especially if what he stated is true and he's doing the majority of the healing.

If you can give me ONE example in the fight where you are not within 10 yards of a target to judge, then I will take back what I said and stand corrected. But since there is never a chance for this to happen, imp judge isn't needed. Trust me I know. I was in charge of also punting boulders during the encounter and with a 10 yard judge it was never an issue.

[natijs4]

As stated, you're never out of range from rag unless you're somewhere you shouldn't be. I.E The back of the platform. If you bothered to read the entirety of the post instead of skimming you would see I explained that, and even gave a picture to show an ideal place to stand where you pose no danger to yourself or the raid. 10 more Holy Power is still 10 more Holy Power. So, gaining that over imp judge (Which you DON'T need) is an increase in throughput.

Also Blessed life is a way to get an edge on the healing in situations where you are moving and the tank is in trouble. For example running from the seeds in P2, as a paladin you are a stationary healer. So using Holy Shock isn't exactly "Life saver stuff" and since there are no logs on him I cant tell the other healer(s) he's running with. Sure, you can save HP and build it up, but thats not always an option. As to where if you're running and you get a HP proc from the seeds exploding and the tank is under 35% then it's pretty much an instant 20k heal. If anything blessed life is better in 10 man over 25 man since every bit of healing can make a difference. Especially if what he stated is true and he's doing the majority of the healing.

If you can give me ONE example in the fight where you are not within 10 yards of a target to judge, then I will take back what I said and stand corrected. But since there is never a chance for this to happen, imp judge isn't needed. Trust me I know. I was in charge of also punting boulders during the encounter and with a 10 yard judge it was never an issue.

lol. Clearly you didn't read any of my post. I said you need Imp Judge to punt meteors, not to judge Rag. If you don't judge it when it is 35 yards away, you run the risk of getting in trouble because of RNG because the meteor is constantly picking players on your side of Rag. In 10 man, if you call out for help with a meteor, thats at least 10% of your dps worrying about the meteor instead of crushing Rag. If you are judging the meteor when it is 10 yards away, you are gonna get yourself in trouble.

As for Blessed Life, the 2nd point, as shown, is really bad. The 1st point is completely unnecessary too. In the example you gave, you will gain 0 holy power when you are moving from seeds. By the time they explode and you gain HP from that, you should have been stationary for multiple casts.

[EndGame]

A few things, and I post some of these to agree with a few of the above posters. Some of the initial posts I consider to have some bad advice in them.

1/2 BL is better than putting a point in cleanse. And 10 free holy power is still 10 free holy power... the transitional healing from enlightened judgement is a joke to use as an argument for getting 2 points in it since if someone really needs that palty ~1k healing you should be healing them directly... not casting judgement. It generally is overheal in most situations. You get 1 point to max your hit. That's about it.

HS glyph is much more useful than people give it credit for and DF is not as useful as people give it credit for (since we generally use it with HR). In a situation where you use HR on CD (Beth) it becomes immensely more useful since you can use 1 DF and get 2 HR uses out of it. Those situations don't exist on Rag. It can be useful situationally in alysrazor and rhyolith. I still stick to the HS glyph due to the increased chance of Infusion of Light across all fights. It's really a preference here, in my opinion, and next tier may change which to go for.

Imp Judgement doesn't need more than 1 point; it's an absolute rarity when you are not in range of something to judge. In fact, the only reason we got 2/2 before was to get the requirements to get PoJ.

As for 4piece... I look at it this way. 4 piece is technically an int boost over the full heroic off set. It's minor. But it's still a boost. The set bonus itself lends to a ton of overheal since there are very few situations when two people are close together and taking a lot of damage. Rag is one of them. 4 piece is very useful on Rag since 2 people are almost always taking constant damage and standing within 10 yards of one another. I generally wear 4 piece; but only because I hit the haste 1860 breakpoint and then stacked mastery/crit.

A lot of the stuff on this thread is built around personal opinion... I've expressed mine here. Take it all for a grain of salt as I don't think there's necessarily a RIGHT way. But not getting BL and instead getting Cleanse is not a good decision to make unless no one else in your raid can cleanse... and even then... there's so few things to cleanse in FL it still may not be worth it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-20 at 08:40 PM ----------

If your DPS can't do pretty high DPS and also punt meteors you have bigger problems sir.

[Tiberria]

A few things, and I post some of these to agree with a few of the above posters. Some of the initial posts I consider to have some bad advice in them.

1/2 BL is better than putting a point in cleanse. And 10 free holy power is still 10 free holy power... the transitional healing from enlightened judgement is a joke to use as an argument for getting 2 points in it since if someone really needs that palty ~1k healing you should be healing them directly... not casting judgement. It generally is overheal in most situations. You get 1 point to max your hit. That's about it.

The extra healing from the extra beacon transfer from the 2nd point in Enlightened Judgements adds up. Of course, that alone isn't going to save someone, but the aggregate effect from having that extra passive healing will, over the course of the fight, add up to extra GCDs and mana that you do not have to use. You're overstating the overheal from beacon; in general, it works out to about 50%.

[Emaias]

lol. Clearly you didn't read any of my post. I said you need Imp Judge to punt meteors, not to judge Rag. If you don't judge it when it is 35 yards away, you run the risk of getting in trouble because of RNG because the meteor is constantly picking players on your side of Rag. In 10 man, if you call out for help with a meteor, thats at least 10% of your dps worrying about the meteor instead of crushing Rag. If you are judging the meteor when it is 10 yards away, you are gonna get yourself in trouble.

As for Blessed Life, the 2nd point, as shown, is really bad. The 1st point is completely unnecessary too. In the example you gave, you will gain 0 holy power when you are moving from seeds. By the time they explode and you gain HP from that, you should have been stationary for multiple casts.

Im not sure how you guys had positioning for rag. Assuming you have downed it. But we had half the raid on the left and right, the DK's the closest melee to the mid and myself closest as well. So it was always a long ranged punt. And if it continued to move its way closer and closer to the left/right you still have PLENTY of room to move. Im still missing your point as to why a throughput talent is a WASTE. You still haven't answered my question as to why you need the increase in range on judge. All you said was for meteors which, isn't a big deal at all with how slow they move. Especially in a 10 man setting (Since you choose to pick this) as there are FAR fewer people to worry about punting on / boulder moving through their area causing them to stop DPS and move. Also have you not forgotten that we have other abilities aside from Judge to use? Such as Holy Shock which will still cause a charge of Holy Power. So picking up a talent for ONE small detail in a fight over a throughput talent is just plain amusing.


As the person said above me. I do agree where you said Holy Shock is useful, but I believe that only to be in a Mastery/Crit setup like I said before, where you actually can benefit from the crit itself and where a smaller heal like HS when it crits can cause a pretty nice shield on the primary target.

[ghostsp3ctre]

All I can say is using eye as a paladin you're simply going for "Zomg Int" and not benefical stats

Thinking like this is not really wise. Int is one of the best stats a Holy Paladin...let alone any healer can use extremely effectively as a throughput stat.
Gotta think about preferential healing styles.

[Emaias]

Thinking like this is not really wise. Int is one of the best stats a Holy Paladin...let alone any healer can use extremely effectively as a throughput stat.
Gotta think about preferential healing styles.

The fact that the proc is crap is what makes it a useless item. It's like in BC where some pieces had "101 Healing Power" and thats it. Sure, you could reach insane amounts of Healing Power with a gear setup like this, but lack of sub stats or in this case sub procs you lose more then you gain. Heroic Fall of Mortality is a better trinket then Heroic Eye. And is now simple to get, I see pugs doing it all the time.

Heroic Eye if im still correct goes Disc Priest > Resto Driuid >= Rest

[Tiberria]

The fact that the proc is crap is what makes it a useless item. It's like in BC where some pieces had "101 Healing Power" and thats it. Sure, you could reach insane amounts of Healing Power with a gear setup like this, but lack of sub stats or in this case sub procs you lose more then you gain. Heroic Fall of Mortality is a better trinket then Heroic Eye. And is now simple to get, I see pugs doing it all the time.

Heroic Eye if im still correct goes Disc Priest > Resto Driuid >= Rest

Heroic Eye consistently gives me about 30% more output than it gives our Disc Priest and about 20% more than our Resto Shaman. I am not 100% sure why that is (possibly because it can proc on the same target that you just healed and holy paladins are on tanks more). Heroic FoM is only better if you need the regen from it.