Gear normalization in heroics - maybe for arena too?

[PizzaSHARK]

All this would do is give ppl in the 1500 and down brackets a easier start in arenas. Soon after that ppl are close or on the same gear lvl and skill trumps skill most of the time anyways. Sure in a 900 rated match you might run into somebody that isnt very good but has gotten lucky in BH and capped CP each week so they are full ruthless early in the season going up against ppl in pvp and pve gear and destroying them. That quickly changes.

---------- Post added 2011-10-30 at 08:51 AM ----------

The only time there is a bit of a ballance issue with gear is when you get 1800 to 2100 players going up against 2200+ that are not only a little better but then have better gear. Those 2200+ ppl had to make the climb to that rank so can the other ppl.

You're not providing a reason why this is a bad thing, why removing gear from the equation entirely is dumb.

In fact, you're reinforcing it - by your own admission gear isn't really a factor once you reach ratings that actually matter, so why not just skip that first step entirely?

[Alvito]

You're not providing a reason why this is a bad thing, why removing gear from the equation entirely is dumb.

In fact, you're reinforcing it - by your own admission gear isn't really a factor once you reach ratings that actually matter, so why not just skip that first step entirely?

I didnt say that it was a bad thing but its not needed at all. There isn't any reason other then letting newer players win a few more early matches and letting the less skilled players that play all the time not win as many. If we are skipping steps why dont we just remove gear from the game completely and just make ppl play better to move on to the next step of pvp or pve? We all know Blizzard isn't going to do something that takes several man hours and will cause a huge uprising of QQ unless it has the potential for a big payout or some lasting value, this doesn't. Making a few more fights for ppl in lower quality gear or ppl that just hit lvl caps to get into arenas would be the only ones to benefit and even for them it would be short lived. I would have to think this would completely kill off the lower lvl arena brackets also.

---------- Post added 2011-10-30 at 09:41 AM ----------

That's the thing. This is PvP, a supposed contest of skill between players.

There's no legitimate reason for having gear even matter in PvP, instead of everyone being assigned static, identical stats based on class/spec.

Why is pvp a test between players skills? Many would say it is them using all the tools they have their playing skill and others like the ability to get different items or understanding what items make them better. Even if we balanced gear then this would just make class ballance or lack of even worse. Healers or casters with no mana regen or high int pools would be at a huge disadvantage and if for some reason the game was tuned around this when they did have gear they would destroy other players. This just seems like a lot of work to just create that many more issues in pvp.

[PizzaSHARK]

I didnt say that it was a bad thing but its not needed at all. There isn't any reason other then letting newer players win a few more early matches and letting the less skilled players that play all the time not win as many. If we are skipping steps why dont we just remove gear from the game completely and just make ppl play better to move on to the next step of pvp or pve? We all know Blizzard isn't going to do something that takes several man hours and will cause a huge uprising of QQ unless it has the potential for a big payout or some lasting value, this doesn't. Making a few more fights for ppl in lower quality gear or ppl that just hit lvl caps to get into arenas would be the only ones to benefit and even for them it would be short lived. I would have to think this would completely kill off the lower lvl arena brackets also.

What's the problem with that, then? You don't PvP for gear, you PvP to fight other players. You only get gear because it's necessary to fight the other players. If you're doing PvP to get gear and only to get gear... shit, go kill a dragon. You get better rewards for that.

Why is pvp a test between players skills?

Uh.

Many would say it is them using all the tools they have their playing skill and others like the ability to get different items or understanding what items make them better.

This is what player skill is. Player skill is knowing which items, talents, and skill priorities work best for your character in a given situation and applying them properly.

Even if we balanced gear then this would just make class ballance or lack of even worse. Healers or casters with no mana regen or high int pools would be at a huge disadvantage and if for some reason the game was tuned around this when they did have gear they would destroy other players. This just seems like a lot of work to just create that many more issues in pvp.

Wait, what?

You're agreeing with me that, at ratings that matter, players are already generally in the same gear. I think you'd also agree that 1500 rated arenas and RBGs are not what Blizzard balances around.

So how in the fuck would removing gear level from the equation entirely somehow worsen PvP balance when you are already agreeing with me that the gear level variable is already effectively removed at ratings levels that Blizzard gives a shit about?

[Deleted]

hm i fink tihs mabe maek gaem shalenge.

[Calibar]

What I think would be a good idea is having stats normalized and having a progression system.

When your rating increases you "level up" kind of, so you get more base stats (stam, strength, etc) and then each time you "level" you get to chose what stats you want to increase.

Like you get a certain amount of points per "level" and you can invest them into what stats you want. Say everytime you "level" in pvp by acquiring a higher rating you get 20 points. You can then put all 20 into, say, crit or you can put some in crit, some in spirit, some in haste or whatever you chose to progress your character.

This of course will only be when you are in controlled pvp settings such as BGs and Arenas. In the world you depend on the gear that you are wearing. So they can still be awarded pvp gear with stats for world pvp.

This way you get to progress your character the way you want and it would keep things fair since they can make it so that the difference between someone with 2500 rating and someone with 0 rating isn't absolutely massive and yet not so small that it's just trivial.

I think a system like this could work very will in WoWs pvp setting.

[Larynx]

What I think would be a good idea is having stats normalized and having a progression system.

When your rating increases you "level up" kind of, so you get more base stats (stam, strength, etc) and then each time you "level" you get to chose what stats you want to increase.

Like you get a certain amount of points per "level" and you can invest them into what stats you want. Say everytime you "level" in pvp by acquiring a higher rating you get 20 points. You can then put all 20 into, say, crit or you can put some in crit, some in spirit, some in haste or whatever you chose to progress your character.

This of course will only be when you are in controlled pvp settings such as BGs and Arenas. In the world you depend on the gear that you are wearing. So they can still be awarded pvp gear with stats for world pvp.

This way you get to progress your character the way you want and it would keep things fair since they can make it so that the difference between someone with 2500 rating and someone with 0 rating isn't absolutely massive and yet not so small that it's just trivial.

I think a system like this could work very will in WoWs pvp setting.

That would totally ruin the point of gear normalization.

[Calibar]

That would totally ruin the point of gear normalization.

There will be no incentive to pvp if you cannot progress your character. As I stated the advantages that you gain will not be so huge that a 0 rating person has 0 chance against a 2500 rated player of the same skill level. The 2500 will just have a marginal advantage, not by todays standards where someone with 2500 will absolutely wreck a 0 rated player with no chance of that 0 rated player winning.

Also the normalisation of gear would ensure that no one is using pve gear to do pvp.

[Ascetic]

i suck ass at arena and i dont even want everyones gear normalized

[Larynx]

There will be no incentive to pvp if you cannot progress your character. As I stated the advantages that you gain will not be so huge that a 0 rating person has 0 chance against a 2500 rated player of the same skill level. The 2500 will just have a marginal advantage, not by todays standards where someone with 2500 will absolutely wreck a 0 rated player with no chance of that 0 rated player winning.

Also the normalisation of gear would ensure that no one is using pve gear to do pvp.

Maybe for the FUN of it?

Who cares about progression in PvP? PvE is the gear based part of the game, PvP is about the skill and NOT the gear.

If anything, you should get cosmetic upgrades for gaining rating, now that we have transmog. Everyone is on equal grounds stat wise, it's just some people can look cool while doing it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-30 at 09:00 AM ----------

i suck ass at arena and i dont even want everyones gear normalized

So why is your opinion relevant if you have no idea about the subject you're arguing against?

[PizzaSHARK]

There will be no incentive to pvp if you cannot progress your character.

LOL.

The entire point of PvP is to fight against other players and have fun doing so. Gear is for the PvE weenies.

And if you REALLY need rewards (shit, I've got about 2,500 hours logged into UT2k4 and there are absolutely no rewards of any sort), just make items usable for Transmogrification available for high ratings. Hand out mounts, pets, tabards, achievements, whatever. You don't need "tangible" rewards to encourage people to PvP.

You don't need rewards at all, really, but they ARE fun to have.

[Vargas]

Those players earned their advantage, let them keep it.

This; otherwise what is the point of getting better gear? Normalizing iLevel in PvP would cause too many headaches. I think the best they can do is create a smarter matching system for rated BG's and arena where you will be matched against teams with an average iLevel similar to yours. Unless they already do this; I don't PvP much outside of regular randoms.

[Ieft]

This 1000x. I can usually hold my own, and am a decent player, but it pisses me off to no end to get facerolled by someone in better gear than me. It doesnt matter how good you are, youre going to lose. (unless the guy in full ruthless is somehow like the worst player ever maybe)

If you were a decent player you would have full ruthless too.

I agree.

Like, a lot.

So being crit for a 40k mortal strike on my brand new 85 druid is a skill issue?

I knew it.

Pillar hump more, jump charges, put up nature's grasp the second you think the warriors thinking about swapping to you and get over the fact you have no gear, man up get ruthless and start next season on equal footing.

No reason to cry over having no gear on a fresh toon. It doesn't matter what class, you can get full S10 Vicious in 2 days and get 2200 in that gear. If you can't it's you not the gear.

[Yoshimiko]

So.. My friend 1shotting my fresh-85 Warrior with his Dragonwrath proc on Frost bolt was a skill issue? ;; Who would've known?

I don't really get why arena isn't normalized. Still gives choice of trinkets, proc or clicky, and gems/enchants - but suddenly this fresh 85 doesn't have to spend 40 hours grinding just to be able to grind more in arena.

I pvp to pvp, not grind.

Random bgs, and RBGs should stay as they are. Arenas should be split into normalized vs as-is. Give different titles, different rewards{transmog gear, pets, mounts, titles, aesthetic stuff}, and this would REALLY kill the "omfg that dragonwrath proc just nailed me for 60k!".

Love the idea, I pray it makes it to blizzard.

If you were a decent player you would have full ruthless too.

No offense, but this is a terrible thought process. Because I just hit 85 last week, I'm a terrible player? /no. And 2 days of bgs to get a full set of gear? Dude do you have a life outside of wow? It's roughly a 20-40 hour grind, wins dependant. That's up to 20 hours a DAY of grinding for a full set of gear. And you can't tell me that'll really have any chance against a full Ruthless w/ T2 weapons team.

Pillar hump more, jump charges, put up nature's grasp the second you think the warriors thinking about swapping to you and get over the fact you have no gear, man up get ruthless and start next season on equal footing.

...Are you seriously saying that being him being globaled as a fresh 85 is...a skill issue? Wowza man.

[Ieft]

No offense, but this is a terrible thought process. Because I just hit 85 last week, I'm a terrible player? /no. And 2 days of bgs to get a full set of gear? Dude do you have a life outside of wow? It's roughly a 20-40 hour grind, wins dependant. That's up to 20 hours a DAY of grinding for a full set of gear. And you can't tell me that'll really have any chance against a full Ruthless w/ T2 weapons team.

...Are you seriously saying that being him being globaled as a fresh 85 is...a skill issue? Wowza man.

Totally missed the point of everything.

[Yoshimiko]

Totally missed the point of everything.

If you were a decent player you would have full ruthless too.

This was your statement. I consider decent under good. And decent just over terrible. If you are a fresh 85 in full honor gear, by your definition, you are automatically under decent. This is what most of us are fighting against, we don't think gear should be a factor in Arenas.

I'm tired of every.single.season there being this 1 piece of gear that skyrockets a otherwise good, or decent class into being batshit crazy OP. Heroic DFO, Smourn, Glaives, Unheeded Warning, Dragonwrath, etc. These items are not obtainable by simply pvping; and give a MASSIVE advantage to players who are able to acquire them. Even ignoring that, I think that a fresh 85 should be able to compete in arenas.

[Ieft]

This was your statement. I consider decent under good. And decent just over terrible. If you are a fresh 85 in full honor gear, by your definition, you are automatically under decent. This is what most of us are fighting against, we don't think gear should be a factor in Arenas.

I'm tired of every.single.season there being this 1 piece of gear that skyrockets a otherwise good, or decent class into being batshit crazy OP. Heroic DFO, Smourn, Glaives, Unheeded Warning, Dragonwrath, etc. These items are not obtainable by simply pvping; and give a MASSIVE advantage to players who are able to acquire them. Even ignoring that, I think that a fresh 85 should be able to compete in arenas.

I said it to one person who didn't mention he was in greens and greys just hit 85 and only had one arm.

Also those items only a minority of people have, so you lose some points to them, they alone aren't stopping you from progressing higher.

[ntw3001]

At any decent rating, people all have the same gear anyway maybe slightly different gems, Blizzard shouldn't cater for the low level players, by equalising gear, instead they should balance classes as best as they can for an MMO.

This idea isn't catering to low level players; it's ceasing to actively prevent people entering the PvP scene. PvP doesn't need the same kind of reward system as PvE.

Plenty of people have pointed out that highly-ranked players have the same gear anyway. The point is that that gear is different to the gear that new PvPers have, requiring the newbies to go through a period of completely unfun gear grinding just to start playing PvP proper. In fact, the situation these posters are describing is a perfect explanation of why there's no reason for this change not to be implemented. Everyone uses the same gear, so why are new players punished with this bastardised half-game? What's the benefit? I liked BGs at low levels with my mage, and I did pretty well, but at max level I'd be wasting my time gearing up.

There's a reason new players in, say, Team Fortress 2 don't spend their first ten hours of play dealing half damage just for being new. That would be completely stupid. It's not some kind of useful 'learning curve' that players have to deal with, it's an arbitrary restriction grandfathered in because the PvP game hasn't yet evolved from its gear-chasing PvE roots. Good players are rewarded with wins. If they need a gear advantage in order to keep winning, they shouldn't keep winning. If they don't need that advantage, what's the benefit of providing it?

Not many successful games give people a gameplay advantage for having been at the top of their game in the past; football teams don't start the league each season with a bonus point for every trophy in their cabinet. Why would they? That would be stupid.

[Riavan]

Could offer rewards in terms of transmog gear for people with higher raiting.

[Vulryth]

would be a terrible buisness model for blizard, capping points and gearing = longer time players are subscribing which equals more money. also, it great if your better than me, but if ive worked harder my gear should be better.

[ntw3001]

would be a terrible buisness model for blizard, capping points and gearing = longer time players are subscribing which equals more money. also, it great if your better than me, but if ive worked harder my gear should be better.

No, if you've worked harder you should be better. As as for the business model... do people actually think that there's no market for PvP gaming without progression? I heard there was this one other game Blizzard tried, it had discrete matches between players and - get this - every game began with neither player possessing a starting advantage. It was called, uh, star-something, I forget. I think it failed big time, which is why nobody's heard of it. It was a stupid idea.