Holy Paladin Haste Question

[Cowjudgement]

Hey guys at the moment I'm sitting at almost 16% haste unbuffed, 2028 rating so I've covered that HR tick cap at 1859 more than comfortably, and I was wondering at what point do I stop stacking haste and start reforging into crit/mastery?

Not allowed to post armory links, but my character is Cowjudgement on US servers.

[Skulldancer]

At the rate that we are going we won't reach the passive 1sec holy light haste cap. I've since went to a mastery build

[natijs4]

You never stop stacking haste.

[Cowjudgement]

You never stop stacking haste.

Why is that? I mean if we're able to keep tanks alive with the sufficient amount of haste rating wouldn't it be more beneficial to go into crit/mastery?

[Nillo]

At the rate that we are going we won't reach the passive 1sec holy light haste cap. I've since went to a mastery build

That's the second time I read nonsense like this - why do you get the conclusion that stacking haste is pointless just because 1 sec casttime is unreachable !_!

---------- Post added 2011-10-29 at 02:30 AM ----------

Why is that? I mean if we're able to keep tanks alive with the sufficient amount of haste rating wouldn't it be more beneficial to go into crit/mastery?

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?
So basically you are saying haste is the stat that keeps tanks alive and is capped at the point where your tanks don't die....?.... seriously?

[Skulldancer]

I have absolutely no issue with 1100 or so haste keeping my tank alive with 14the and hopefully 15% mastery with a upgrade. I saw when a pally in my guild went mastery and we spoke that basically we wont see 1 sec holy lights .... so why not use mastery for what it was intended??? The ret community quickly saw that it wasnt smart to stack haste a neglect mastery.... mastery during fights like baleroc one the inferno blades is wonderful

[kadowe]

It really depends, if you are 25 man and only need to keep the tanks alive sure mastery is better, but haste for a 10 man guild weighs more, you will need to cast heals on the raid, and faster spells means less downtime on the tanks. If you are a 25 man healer only set to heal the tanks mastery/crit is a better build.

[Nillo]

I saw when a pally in my guild went mastery and we spoke that basically we wont see 1 sec holy lights .... so why not use mastery for what it was intended???

Again - why?
I just can't find a reasonable explanation as to why not being able to reach 1 sec HL has anything to do with you stacking mastery instead.

[Tatsu]

I have absolutely no issue with 1100 or so haste keeping my tank alive with 14the and hopefully 15% mastery with a upgrade. I saw when a pally in my guild went mastery and we spoke that basically we wont see 1 sec holy lights .... so why not use mastery for what it was intended??? The ret community quickly saw that it wasnt smart to stack haste a neglect mastery.... mastery during fights like baleroc one the inferno blades is wonderful

Until next patch haste is still a superior stat for us. Haste is a linear increase meaning that it continues to be good for weather you have 1000 or 2000. Haste is a better stat because it affects all of our healing. Mastery is limited by not working with HR and beacon.

Mastery reduces its usefulness because it doesn't work with beacon or HR. Two of our major heals are not effected at all by mastery. And to your point about baleroc. Mastery is the worst stat for that fight. With mastery being capped at 1/3 our health it does at best 50k shields. With tanks having over a million hit points by the end this is a drop in a bucket.

Crit is too RNG. It suffers from poor conversion rate. I don't like the idea of hoping that I get a crit to save a tank. I would much rather just be able to cast more heals.

Now next patch when mastery also affects HR there will be a much closer relationship to haste/crit/mastery. Until that point haste is still a better stat.

[Skulldancer]

Until next patch haste is still a superior stat for us. Haste is a linear increase meaning that it continues to be good for weather you have 1000 or 2000. Haste is a better stat because it affects all of our healing. Mastery is limited by not working with HR and beacon.

Mastery reduces its usefulness because it doesn't work with beacon or HR. Two of our major heals are not effected at all by mastery. And to your point about baleroc. Mastery is the worst stat for that fight. With mastery being capped at 1/3 our health it does at best 50k shields. With tanks having over a million hit points by the end this is a drop in a bucket.

Crit is too RNG. It suffers from poor conversion rate. I don't like the idea of hoping that I get a crit to save a tank. I would much rather just be able to cast more heals.

Now next patch when mastery also affects HR there will be a much closer relationship to haste/crit/mastery. Until that point haste is still a better stat.

I havnt seen any issues on Baleroc with my low haste. 2.23 and 2.14 sec per caste isnt that big of a diff between the 2 times while having a lot of mastery is. All I am saying is I want to use mastery for it intened use. Beside with the haste buffs we get infusion of light and when we keep up Judgement. Haste is that last thing on my mind right now and to be honest I'm healing fine since I changed my gearing. Besides Haste goes against regen too.... which we would need alot in 4.3, hell we need decent regen now on the later progression in heroic FL

[patrixlul]

I havnt seen any issues on Baleroc with my low haste. 2.23 and 2.14 sec per caste isnt that big of a diff between the 2 times while having a lot of mastery is. All I am saying is I want to use mastery for it intened use. Beside with the haste buffs we get infusion of light and when we keep up Judgement. Haste is that last thing on my mind right now and to be honest I'm healing fine since I changed my gearing. Besides Haste goes against regen too.... which we would need alot in 4.3, hell we need decent regen now on the later progression in heroic FL

You're doing fine because every fight except H:Rag is nerfed in to the ground. In a 10m atmosphere haste is king for holy pally. Plain and simple. Get a bunch of it. I'll take crit/mastery when I can squeeze it in, or don't have a choice, but haste will always directly increase your healing done. More heals = more healing. Really if you're using mastery and building it up on your MT in a 10m raid, that means you're severely under-utilizing beacon. Every current fight in FL you can get away with rarely directly casting on your tank due to beacon and haste, which means at minimum you're healing 2 people with every heal (3 if you count yourself), and with HL transferring 100% of it's heal through beacon, with enough haste you can spam it extremely effectively for many phases.

Now in a 25m raid it's different to a degree since mastery does effect LOD so I can see only getting enough haste to benefit HR, other than that though if you're completely neglecting haste you're most likely not just doing it wrong, but stressing our your other healer. And if you're still 3 healing any fight other than maybe H:Beth...well...I'll just leave it at that.

[Nillo]

1) Beside with the haste buffs we get infusion of light and when we keep up Judgement.
2) Haste is that last thing on my mind right now and to be honest I'm healing fine since I changed my gearing.
Besides Haste goes against regen too.... which we would need alot in 4.3, hell we need decent regen now on the later progression in heroic FL

1) Infusion of Light is hardly reliable and haste still affects that proc
2) Because you're still doing normal modes after they have been nerfed to the ground, maybe? - you could do fine with everything there.
3) Haste only works against regen if you mindlessly spam your big heals. If you're doing it right and spam HL as long as possible it may even reduce your overall mana usage.

A mastery/crit build has only 1 thing it can be used for and that is pure tank healing without taking advantage of the beacon of light heal (instead using BoL to gain HP) and I doubt you'll ever want 2 paladins with that build in 1 raid. (heck I wouldn't even use 1 except for bosses like Shannox with little raid damage and no tank swaps)

[Deleted]

1) Infusion of Light is hardly reliable and haste still affects that proc
2) Because you're still doing normal modes after they have been nerfed to the ground, maybe? - you could do fine with everything there.
3) Haste only works against regen if you mindlessly spam your big heals. If you're doing it right and spam HL as long as possible it may even reduce your overall mana usage.

A mastery/crit build has only 1 thing it can be used for and that is pure tank healing without taking advantage of the beacon of light heal (instead using BoL to gain HP) and I doubt you'll ever want 2 paladins with that build in 1 raid. (heck I wouldn't even use 1 except for bosses like Shannox with little raid damage and no tank swaps)

Ye i have to agree. On HC modes its mostly about haw fast you can heal in certain situations. Ok on 25man you can have fullout mastery paladin who just heals tank and nothing more but others in 25man and all on 10man should keeps stacking haste/spirit. I got 7/7hc and i can see why i wont go for mastery anytime soon. The 6 first bosses aint the issue anymore after the nerfs but rag is still littlebit pain in the arse. With haste i can assure heal as much as possible fast and with extra tic from HR helps shitloads on the aoe heavy 2man healing fights. Some might say that Rag hc ph4 where you need to move 50% of the time mastery shield is good but nope i disagree since more haste = more heals = more targets survive. Yes this is my 10man perspective so i aint gonna argue for the 25mans except the fact mastery is only good for single target tank healing (or the most effective for). That´s my 2 cents
On the fun side thought I laugh every single time someone says haste is bad until you get 1 sec HL cap

[Deleted]

For single target heals (each row is normalized around haste on that specific row):

		Spi	Crit	Mast	Int	Haste
Beacon burst	0	70	0	95	100
Beacon overall	25	95	0	135	100

Primary burst	0	55	95	95	100
Primary overall	530	430	680	1000	100

To sum it up, haste is good for beacon healing and burst. It is however horrible compared to any other stat for overall throughput on the primary target.

Haste also works very well with the current HR, something which will change in 4.3 where haste HR efficiency goes down the drain. Other changes in 4.3 includes spirit growing a lot stronger for overall throughput, and paladins becoming worse at healing the beacon due to the PotI change (nerfing the stats that are strong with beacon transfer).

[Skulldancer]

1) Infusion of Light is hardly reliable and haste still affects that proc
2) Because you're still doing normal modes after they have been nerfed to the ground, maybe? - you could do fine with everything there.
3) Haste only works against regen if you mindlessly spam your big heals. If you're doing it right and spam HL as long as possible it may even reduce your overall mana usage.

A mastery/crit build has only 1 thing it can be used for and that is pure tank healing without taking advantage of the beacon of light heal (instead using BoL to gain HP) and I doubt you'll ever want 2 paladins with that build in 1 raid. (heck I wouldn't even use 1 except for bosses like Shannox with little raid damage and no tank swaps)

I just joined this guild and The pally that's been here Actually got me to switch. They're 6/7 heroic and I'm getting rotated in. I can have him type the same thing I just posted since you think progression is viable. Also Theres pallies out there who go hardcore mastery and are 7/7 heroic like the pally from Premonition. So if you want prgression to be your key to speak then I can easily get my guildie or other server mates to back up what I've said.

---------- Post added 2011-10-29 at 02:23 PM ----------

On the fun side thought I laugh every single time someone says haste is bad until you get 1 sec HL cap

You know how much haste it takes to knock down just tenth's of a sec? I'm at sub 1k haste actually and i'm still in the 2sec range per caste before I judge. 2.20sec before judge is only some hudreths of a sec off in time from a haste at 1859.... which is still in the 2sec range 2k haste is still in the 2 sec range. For every 10 heals we spam at the same time you may get 1 more off while just 5 of my heals grants a 43k shield to boot which in 10 heals is 86k worth of shielding/absorb. You might get in one more heal if u figure the times added but I'm throwing shields with my heals. Yes Haste affects infusion procs but my DL with it proc was if I can remember .937 sec or around that...... below 1 sec. Again if you want viable progression I'll just get a guildie to type or I can just link his armory.

[Deleted]

I just joined this guild and The pally that's been here Actually got me to switch. They're 6/7 heroic and I'm getting rotated in. I can have him type the same thing I just posted since you think progression is viable. Also Theres pallies out there who go hardcore mastery and are 7/7 heroic like the pally from Premonition. So if you want prgression to be your key to speak then I can easily get my guildie or other server mates to back up what I've said.

---------- Post added 2011-10-29 at 02:23 PM ----------

You know how much haste it takes to knock down just tenth's of a sec? I'm at sub 1k haste actually and i'm still in the 2sec range per caste before I judge. 2.20sec before judge is only some hudreths of a sec off in time from a haste at 1859.... which is still in the 2sec range 2k haste is still in the 2 sec range. For every 10 heals we spam at the same time you may get 1 more off while just 5 of my heals grants a 43k shield to boot which in 10 heals is 86k worth of shielding/absorb. You might get in one more heal if u figure the times added but I'm throwing shields with my heals. Yes Haste affects infusion procs but my DL with it proc was if I can remember .937 sec or around that...... below 1 sec. Again if you want viable progression I'll just get a guildie to type or I can just link his armory.

As for the premonition its a 25man guild i dont argue about that like i said for 10man haste overruns mastery by a mile since its not just tank healing. Mastery is ok but the bad factor is that its not transferred tru beacon. as for the how much haste it takes to take tenth´s of a sec i know its alot but still i ratfer have 1.8-1.9 sec casts then 2.1-2.1 sec casts. Just keep in mind for 10mans mastery aint that good as it sounds like for 25mans i cant tell but i know alot of ppl going for it but that cant be afford in 10mans. Maybe for the 6 first bosses like i said b4 but rag IMO needs more haste to get the extra tic for HR and faster heals ect. You can say what ever you want from your experience so do i. I said my personal oppinions From 10man raiding perspective. I think you are in 25man guild where pallys are mostly tank healers where mastery seems to be ok

[Skulldancer]

As for the premonition its a 25man guild i dont argue about that like i said for 10man haste overruns mastery by a mile since its not just tank healing. Mastery is ok but the bad factor is that its not transferred tru beacon. as for the how much haste it takes to take tenth´s of a sec i know its alot but still i ratfer have 1.8-1.9 sec casts then 2.1-2.1 sec casts. Just keep in mind for 10mans mastery aint that good as it sounds like for 25mans i cant tell but i know alot of ppl going for it but that cant be afford in 10mans. Maybe for the 6 first bosses like i said b4 but rag IMO needs more haste to get the extra tic for HR and faster heals ect. You can say what ever you want from your experience so do i. I said my personal oppinions From 10man raiding perspective. I think you are in 25man guild where pallys are mostly tank healers where mastery seems to be ok

yes me and my guildie are in a 25 man

[Nillo]

Again if you want viable progression I'll just get a guildie to type or I can just link his armory.

If I'm looking at the right person he only killed like 1 heroic boss pre nerf (shannox), has skilled 33-3-5 (only 3 in prot but 5 in ret? !_!), is not using Divine Protection and is using a mastery/spirit gem in his boots.
Besides just checked some logs:
6 Healing Heroic Domo (It's usually done with 4...)
8 Healing Heroic Beth post nerf (try 6-7)
Both paladins using FoL as their main heal on some fights. (even the one using a more reasonable spirit/haste gear)

That's as if I'd say "Hey look at that prot paladin in my alt raid" (we did 6/7H within 2 weeks of the nerf) as an example of why hit/exp gemming/reforging on a tank works (he still loses aggro, deals less than 10k dps and consumes healer mana in no time)


Bah whatever I really don't know why I'm trying to explain things to you that one thread you opened a few months ago already showed that you lack experience in this game, your ideas are warped and yet still you persist on spreading your odd views on how you think you're supposed to gear.

Also Theres pallies out there who go hardcore mastery and are 7/7 heroic like the pally from Premonition.

And that guy has already stated that his build will ONLY work in his setup, where he's pretty much the only one healing tanks and that he can allow himself to gimp his raid healing capabilities.
And IIRC he was also the paladin who was FoL specced in WotLK when pretty much everyone else agreed that doing so was just nonsense.
Yes you can pull it off and yes it may be ok in some setups, but it's still far from optimal in most cases and way too limiting.

[Tatsu]

yes me and my guildie are in a 25 man

Your missing the point of haste. The by product of haste is that your heals are quicker. The main point of haste is that you cast more heals in a given time frame. You get 1% more haste you get 1% more casts. That is the reason haste is strong. With a mastery/crit build you are sacrificing your aoe healing. When you are talking about a fight like HM rag where you might be running 4 healers everyone has to be able to help out. Mastery/crit might work for you, but that means you are making your other healers work even harder.

[Nillo]

Your missing the point of haste. The by product of haste is that your heals are quicker. The main point of haste is that you cast more heals in a given time frame. You get 1% more haste you get 1% more casts. That is the reason haste is strong. With a mastery/crit build you are sacrificing your aoe healing. When you are talking about a fight like HM rag where you might be running 4 healers everyone has to be able to help out. Mastery/crit might work for you, but that means you are making your other healers work even harder.

But.... but..... it's only 0.1 seconds