Bane of Agony and haste

[impending doom]

SimulationCraft 422-2 for World of Warcraft 4.2.2 Live (build level 14545)
Timestamp: Wed Nov 02 00:54:12 2011 Iterations: 25000 Fight Length: 240 - 360 Fight Style: Patchwerk



Using T12H gear with some added haste and glyph of BoA, even at 3500 haste + all raid buffs, BoD seem to give more dps than glyphed BoA on a single target boss. Well above glyph of UA is somehow bugged in my SimCraft, it doesn't seem to reduce the cast time of UA at all (which btw. is avg 1.108 sec with 3500 haste+buffs).

and the 5000 haste rating is true, but that's unbuffed, 5000 buffed is equal to eradication + dark intent + ~2500 haste rating or only 1000 if you have bloodlust.

If i'm under a 1 second cast on UA then there's no other glyph to use, thus BoA can't be "worse" in addition, assuming an add dies in less than 15 seconds, bane of doom is worthless. I find bane of agony to be very useful in many fights, especially Alysrazor, Majordomo (soul swap to spawned adds), Beth (doting up each add), Rhyolith (keeping two BoAs on each leg for equal damage plus the multidoting to the sparks/fragments), and Rag for the Scions. I still use Bane of Doom, don't get me wrong, but I still use BoA a lot. I would use BoA over BoD if I have eradication or Bloodlust because with that amount of haste it is a dps output then BoD, any other time I'll use BoD. (i won't replace Bane of Doom for Bane of Agony however, unless Bane of Doom falls off within the eradication buff time frame, then I'll apply BoA)

Still eradication has only 27% uptime and bloodlust usually less, and getting UA to 1 sec is not possible without those temporal haste buffs or the glyph. In Alysrazor obviously glyphed BoA is better if you're getting haste buffs. On Rhyolith there may be some use, but for rest of the bosses the adds just die in less than 24 sec thus no extra gain from glyph, well except if u keep BoA on boss for soul swap(glyphed) purposes but this is very situational and the "gain" hard to calculate.

Well during bloodlust BoA may be better in theory, but keep in mind that if you're using rune of zeth and demon soul etc. properly, BoD benefits whole 60 sec from them but BoA only 24 or 28 sec.

[Brauhm]

SimulationCraft 422-2 for World of Warcraft 4.2.2 Live (build level 14545)
Timestamp: Wed Nov 02 00:54:12 2011 Iterations: 25000 Fight Length: 240 - 360 Fight Style: Patchwerk



Using T12H gear with some added haste and glyph of BoA, even at 3500 haste + all raid buffs, BoD seem to give more dps than glyphed BoA on a single target boss. Well above glyph of UA is somehow bugged in my SimCraft, it doesn't seem to reduce the cast time of UA at all (which btw. is avg 1.108 sec with 3500 haste+buffs).




Still eradication has only 27% uptime and bloodlust usually less, and getting UA to 1 sec is not possible without those temporal haste buffs or the glyph. In Alysrazor obviously glyphed BoA is better if you're getting haste buffs. On Rhyolith there may be some use, but for rest of the bosses the adds just die in less than 24 sec thus no extra gain from glyph, well except if u keep BoA on boss for soul swap(glyphed) purposes but this is very situational and the "gain" hard to calculate.

Well during bloodlust BoA may be better in theory, but keep in mind that if you're using rune of zeth and demon soul etc. properly, BoD benefits whole 60 sec from them but BoA only 24 or 28 sec.

Well, don't forget that if an add dies in less than 15 seconds, then BoA is always going to be better, in addition, if you notice, the simcraft shows just a minor difference in dps, the UA glyph being so minute that RNG and simcraft error is enough to make up for it. The way UA is casted at higher levels of haste make it almost on par with your GCD, meaning that you don't really need the glyph considering lat and lag will make up for the time you would save in "perfect environments". You simmed at 3500 haste rating, but that was just haste, Mastery stacks in a multiplicative manner with the bonus damage that BoA gets as its duration increases (this damage is exponential per every 2-3 ticks) and at 3500 haste, passive mastery from Deathwing gear would probably work wonders and synergize very well with BoA, much more so than it does with BoD. However, your sims prove to me that not only is BoA viable, but that you can swap to it whenever and the dps loss is marginal at best, so in the end its about utility, and with BoD only able to be applied to one target, it seems BoA wins that match.

[Guuldaann]

Pretty sure blizzard always intended for BoD to be used in fights that last longer than 30 seconds. The only time you should be using BoA is if the fight is going to be over quickly and/or you've already casted BoD on your main target and are soul swapping to the next, in that case cast BoA on the target without BoD


BoD is undoubtedly one of the highest DPET spells in the game, if not the highest.

[impending doom]

Well, don't forget that if an add dies in less than 15 seconds, then BoA is always going to be better,

Nobody suggested to use BoD on adds, I was talking about GLYPH of BoA, which doesn't give any benefit on adds that die in less than 15 (or 25) seconds.

in addition, if you notice, the simcraft shows just a minor difference in dps, the UA glyph being so minute that RNG and simcraft error is enough to make up for it.

Well I said that glyph of UA seemed bugged in SimCraft, it doesn't reduce the GCD of UA as it should (see this & this). But now that I tested on dummys it really seems that the glyph currently does NOT reduce the GCD of UA, only the cast time, which makes it quite useless and also making the 1 sec GCD cap irrelevant regarding this glyph, cast time can go below 1sec even if gcd can't. Well at least you could get the dot on adds faster.

You simmed at 3500 haste rating, but that was just haste, Mastery stacks in a multiplicative manner with the bonus damage that BoA gets as its duration increases (this damage is exponential per every 2-3 ticks) and at 3500 haste, passive mastery from Deathwing gear would probably work wonders and synergize very well with BoA, much more so than it does with BoD.

However, your sims prove to me that not only is BoA viable, but that you can swap to it whenever and the dps loss is marginal at best, so in the end its about utility, and with BoD only able to be applied to one target, it seems BoA wins that match.

While it seems true that glyphed BoA scales little better with mastery than BoD, you'd need some crazy(unobtainable) amount of mastery for them to be on par on a single target simulation. You could say that both glyph of UA and BoA are "viable" because they both give only marginal theoretical gain, but real use for glyph of BoA is limited only to few fights.

Actually at high haste levels glyph of BoA seem to work against itself for some reason(?):

(T12H with 3500 haste + 2000 mastery + raid buffs, 50k iterations)

edit: unglyphed BoA probably lines up better with procs and trinkets in simulation than the glyphed BoA.

[Napoles]

Imp Doom, is it possible that Simcraft is refreshing BoA before the last tick like we would usually do with other dots?

Im pretty sure BoA is best letting itself ride out its duration and casting it again after it leaves the target.
Realistically you would get two much stronger ticks with the glyph plus more shadow bolts equipping GoA then without it.

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 10:49 AM ----------

Another thing to consider are the Trinkets.
One of the reasons RoZ is so strong is because it lines up with every BoD we cast. Using BoA we might switch to using Volcano+VLPC as BiS.

[Vulryth]

warlocks are so complicated, i have one at 85 but i cant figure out how to do more than 15k dps

[impending doom]

Imp Doom, is it possible that Simcraft is refreshing BoA before the last tick like we would usually do with other dots?

Im pretty sure BoA is best letting itself ride out its duration and casting it again after it leaves the target.
Realistically you would get two much stronger ticks with the glyph plus more shadow bolts equipping GoA then without it.

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 10:49 AM ----------

Another thing to consider are the Trinkets.
One of the reasons RoZ is so strong is because it lines up with every BoD we cast. Using BoA we might switch to using Volcano+VLPC as BiS.

No I don't think Simcraft is "clipping" BoA when I use this line: actions+=/bane_of_agony,if=target.time_to_die>15&!ticking&miss_react
But yeah I think the real reason is that unglyphed BoA lines up better with different procs and trinkets.
Either way the differencies are marginal, but BoD still slightly ahead on single target.

[Napoles]

Bane of Agony lasts 24 secs, the glyph adds 4 secs for a total of 28 sec duration.
This means i would refresh reg BoA at 25 secs and 50 secs. Glyphed BoA would refresh at 29 secs and 58 secs.

After thinking about this i retract my comment about replacing Rune of Zeth since Glyphed BoA would fit in the 1 min window considering i would activate the trinket a few secs from the first application of BoA. This also leads me to think combat buffs should not have a significant impact on BoA.

Impending Doom, although im interested in the pursuit of max dps I am not experienced enough with Simcraft to tell you that you might be wrong or not. Specially since the difference in dps seem to be significantly minor.
I might test these scenarios on my own but will keep using BoD in progressive encounters.

[Soloose]

Also remember along Napoles point. With affliction using Rune of Zeth on cd with BoD makes it a BIS trinket with VPLC. Its siming for me higher than anything except for regular and heroic vplc and I'm not positive that simcraft actually procs RoZ before every BoD is used or if there is a command line to make up that ensures it does so. If it already does then its still great and puts it a fair margin above using BoA. If simcraft doesn't actually do that then the difference could be even larger.

[Kildragon]

Also keep in mind that BoD needs only be applied once every minute giving you an extra GCD every minute over BoA, meaning an extra shadowbolt every 2 min. As for BoA on add fights, keep in mind that its damage increases the longer it stays on target. This means on anything that will stay alive for less than 15 seconds, you might as well cast SB since at that point it providers higher DPS than BoA. The only time glyph of BoA would actually be good is on a fight where multiple targets stay up for the entire duration of BoA or when BoA surpasses BoD in single target damage.

TBH with the new trinkets in 4.3, BoA may come out ahead of BoD since 3200 haste for 20 seconds is absolutely insane. It's essentially a personal bloodlust on whatever the ICD is. I'm assuming it will be 90 seconds.

[Brauhm]

Bane of Agony lasts 24 secs, the glyph adds 4 secs for a total of 28 sec duration.
This means i would refresh reg BoA at 25 secs and 50 secs. Glyphed BoA would refresh at 29 secs and 58 secs.

After thinking about this i retract my comment about replacing Rune of Zeth since Glyphed BoA would fit in the 1 min window considering i would activate the trinket a few secs from the first application of BoA. This also leads me to think combat buffs should not have a significant impact on BoA.

Impending Doom, although im interested in the pursuit of max dps I am not experienced enough with Simcraft to tell you that you might be wrong or not. Specially since the difference in dps seem to be significantly minor.
I might test these scenarios on my own but will keep using BoD in progressive encounters.

I completely agree. Unless I'm effected by bloodlust I don't ever use BoA, but I do glyph for it considering Glyph of UA is worthless. As of late I've been using BoA more fluidly, keeping an eye on my haste and trying to time when's the best time to use it. I'm considering this because of the 3k haste proc we can get next tier. That makes BoA very very powerful.

[Hellfury]

Guys dont forget that in 4.3 Doom will work with SE stacks, I had a 110k Doom crit on PTR that I cant do in Live.

[Napoles]

Guys dont forget that in 4.3 Doom will work with SE stacks, I had a 110k Doom crit on PTR that I cant do in Live.

This is a suprise to me, wasnt aware Shadow Embrace did not affect Doom in Live.
Can someone tell me what doesnt affect Bane of Doom but does affect Bane of Agony? Shadow Embrace, Haunt, 30% for choosing Affliction, Mastery, Curse of Elements and anything else I might have forgotten.