[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Wrecktangle]

Oh, I wasn't referring to my person experience as a raid leading tank. Okay, then.

Sarcasm?

You said above that you never did mythic/savage content, so in that vein of very basic normal content I could completely agree that tanking is easy (but again, difficulty was never the topic of the conversation, responsibility was). Tanking Titan EX in 2.1 was a complete snooze for me. I literally just had to stand there, press 1 button every time he did a tank buster, then I needed to pull one add. That was it. That fight as a DPS was much more fun.

Your responsibility is non-existent in content where there is no challenge.

Speaking from WoW hunter BC example, there's a difference between a hunter that does admirible DPS and a hunter that does admirible DPS while letting the tank focus on holding a single mob because said hunter has a sum total of 5 mobs on CC lockdown while the group deals with them one at a time too. That isn't altering the basic requirements, that's showing how players go above and beyond.

Not quite the same distinction, considering just how much the game has evolved since then. That is no longer the dungeon paradigm (at least not in M+, which this entire topic centered around). The only time this expac we had to do that is when we hit max level we jumped right into mythic (skipped heroics) and we were approx 20ilvl lower than recommended.

A good MNK or NIN will know to hit their defensive cool downs at the right times, when to self heal, to minimize the healers' time and attention on them and focus it elsewhere.

Again, this isn't relevant to the topic at hand. The tank has to do this too. Tanks have to pop self healing when appropriate (if they have it) or CDs.

To be 100% clear, I personally don't believe a tank in FF14 has the most responsibility. I believe that in WoW (again at M+ level) that they do and I listed examples. That was my original point and to this post, no one has given me a logical and relevant counter-argument.

As a MNK in the CT days, I rescued a number of runs from wipes by appropriate use of cool downs to tank King Behemoth while a tank was raise, topped off, and back in position. Or typed out strategies on the fly to get through the last boss when too many people were locked out for a group's pad to activate the shield. That's not standard DPS actions.

Again, not relevant. Because in CT you are not timed or punished for taking your time or having to type and out explain things. The entire point of my post was that in that type of content you have no choice, but to give the tank the reins and its his responsibility to make the right choices for the group.

Yes, there's a difference between a good tank and a great tank. There are differences between good healers/DPS and great ones. It's the extra level of awareness and reaction that they bring to their role. You make it sound like tanks are doing all this great, tremendous effort while all other rolls can bounce their face on the keyboard. Moreso what you're describing, to me anyway, is marks of a good vs great PLAYER, regardless of the role.

No, that's not what I am making it sound like at all. I very clearly stated that responsibility =/= difficulty. It is possible to have a role shoulder more responsibility, but be mechanically easier to execute the functions of that role.

Because DPS CAN (and I've done/seen it done) do a lot of the direction if a tank will pay attention to respond to what they're told. It comes at a sacrifice to their overall DPS, or a healer's healing, but they can pull that off too. Like the tank that can adjust appropriately, the players who can do this while weaving in their required tasks are exceptional rather than the standard.

Doesn't work in M+, that's kind of the whole point of my post. Is that the tank needs to know the stuff in advance because its timed and you're punished for making bad judgment calls.

I think the issue is people get this sense that tanking is some grand and difficult endeavor that a rare few can handle while DPS and, to a lesser extent, healing are "lesser tasks" that the unwashed masses can do. It comes off elitist and for far too many yields a sense of superiority among tanks and resentment from others towards them. From my experience, tanking isn't as difficult as it's made out to be from the gameplay and mechanic perspective so much as it is the peer judgment aspect.

Well the problem of people, is that collectively they're stupid. Individuals may be smart, etc., but people are very dumb. In no way did I ever advocate healing or DPS (im literally a melee DPS main) being lesser roles, so I'm not 100% sure what your goal of mentioning this was. I do agree that the peer judgment aspect of tanking/healing is a considerable issue that surely plays into some of this.

I wouldn't mind a little more difficulty in dungeons myself, particularly in boss fights. I don't need dungeons to be Mythic+ levels, but a nudge up would be most welcome by me. If EX dungeons were legitimately more difficult and the EX roulette rewards reflected that, but those dungeons got a nerfed version in the following patch in a 60 roulette, that could be pretty cool. Tomestone rewards for EX and 60 would have to be tweaked a bit. EX could be a shorter path to capping for the week with 60s giving a nicer bundle per standard run or something. I 'unno. Just thinking "out loud" so to speak.

See now this is a very constructive response. Not because you agree with me, but because you cite examples and ideas. More of this stuff.

Healer/DPS/Tank all have to worry about positioning.
"But the tank has to do that too!"

Yes, I know..... that's what I said. EVERYONE has to think about their positioning. This is not a tank exclusive concern that adds to their burden.

The tank isn't responsible for the group's positioning. The other players are responsible for where they stand.
If you mean the mob's positioning so the group can attack or make use of AoEs that can debuff the mobs, sure, that's something that separates a good from great tank.

So you say the tank isn't responsible for the GROUPs positioning, and I say it is. You then cite a very good specific example, that literally defends my point. It's not about separate good from great. The bottom line is that is the tanks UNIQUE responsibility. It is his, and his ALONE to ensure that the players are out of danger, have room to AOE, etc.

And sometimes it's because the tank pulls two rooms in Palace of the Dead despite knowing the healer hasn't healed in a dungeon and isn't higher than level 35, is still trying to see what all these new buttons they've gotten are actually doing, and just grins wickedly while the healer tries to survive the trial by fire the tank just called down upon them.

.......MY FRIENDS ARE JERKS! T-T

(we only wiped once, but that was because we had mobs that did the super huge terror on top of me being paralyzed)

If its any consolation, I reported all of your friends for BM. Trial by fire works sometimes man, I'd support that strategy.

I see you did not experience Unrest.... there was no overcoming that which I speak of. There was no triumphant victory

for you. Only the frantic coordination of retreat, and the "victory" that your healer survived the flight to escape the zone while you delayed the hungering horde long enough before your own death.... Victory in death was the greatest you could hope for.

Correct. Was never an EQ player (i believe you said eq), so there reference is sadly lost on me .

I'm hoping Samurai is a tank. I'd like to have a tank job I enjoy. None in FFXIV have really grabbed me. And I ain't playing alts in WoW, so hunter got the focus (plus Paladin..... c'mon, man, pass on Ashbringer? Nah).

You know if they made RDM melee dps I would totally be on board with SAM being tank. However, if RDM isn't MDPS I don't see a world where SAM could be tank. I hate that there's no sword DPS class. Just my .02.

I'm not going to dwell on the topic too much. A difference of opinion is a difference of opinion and we know we disagree on game design philosophy in regards to focusing development time on the elite few versus the larger masses. I was just giving my opinion based on my experiences with various roles through the years.

Again, I'm not advocating for development for the elite. I'm arguing for content for the midcore players. The players who are good, and want to be challenged and improve. The player who thought Ravana EX was a really fun fight. The player who wiped on it for maybe a week or two trying to find pugs for it. I'm not advocating for the group progressing on whatever savage fight they're on. There doesn't need to be such a stark difficulty difference between dungeons/hunts and savage raiding.

Faroth pretty much summed up my opinion on this topic without me having to write it. I'd even go further and argue that positioning is more important in FFXIV with the way dps works.

He also pretty much summed up a lot of things that weren't relevant to the discussion. It would have been nice if you had actually put some effort into responding.[/QUOTE]

There is no additional responsibility on a tanks shoulder over any other role. It is an illusion. I've run in both WoW and FFXIV in all the roles, for quite some time. Tanks and healers get a bad rap for the faults only because their mistakes are largely more apparent. Which makes people like rolling as DPS, to hide their problems. Not because it is any easier.

So go ahead, list everything for each role that they are responsible for, then tally them up and we'll see.

Runs are typically sped up in a variety of ways, a geared tank can make things go fast, but so can an undergeared tank if they pace out their pulls a little more. Higher geared dps that know how to watch enmity bars while putting out the most they can will contribute to the speed of things, assuming they can maintain it well. Undergeared dps that are smart will focus targets with the other group members to increase the kill rate rather than whittle down separate mobs, making enmity a tougher task. Healers will keep the group in shape and maintain themselves enough to handle future pulls while focusing on the current one.

Not even remotely relevant to the original discussion.[/QUOTE]

@Faroth really summed it up.

The harder stuff was for 101-200, unless I'm remembering wrong.

I said earlier, sure he summed up his thoughts on a lot of things that weren't even relevant to the original discussion lol.

Regarding tanking responsibilities, I wonder what would happen if WoW or FFXIV took away interrupts from tanks. Make it super-explicit that interrupting is the sole responsibility of the DPS. Would that be a positive change for the game (assume that all dps get similar interrupts)?

WoW has already pulled interrupts from healers.At least, my Holy paladin doesn't have an interrupt any more, though she does have a taunt for some reason. It's actually a bit annoying, as you occasionally run across a mob which heals while solo questing, and that's always a pain to deal with without interrupts and with lower dps.

I think doing that would not be a good change as it would limit some comp choices. Not every ranged has a reliable interrupt and if your specific dungeon comp runs 3 ranged you could be hindered (ha wouldn't that be something).

At best you'd be removing an ability that isn't used in certain comps, and slightly hindered others. I don't quite see the value in it. Arguably you could improve the ranged classes interrupts to a melee level to remove this imbalance, but then maybe PVP implications would arise.

[Aruhen]

I don't care if it's a Tower of Babel or an Iron Giant (though it'd be a bit too Alexander redux for some), but I want the Four Elemental Fiends to show up in XIV one day.

Yeah that's probably too similar to Alexander.

I wonder if he what meant was more not an actual dungeon from an older Final Fantasy but more so just something that "screams" Final Fantasy. Maybe some sort of castle with tons of traps reminiscent of older games in the series.

Crap thinking about older stuff makes me want more dungeons that are inspired by older games in the series like Pharos Sirius and The Great Library.

[dope_danny]

After getting used to DRK, I cannot play PLD anymore. Sooo.... zZzZz ....boring.

^This. DRK was the first tank i played and my alt job after NIN and i've tanked dungeons, raids, dd, mucked about in pvp and its great fun.

PLD feels so boring, like you havent even got your skills by accident or something. i did a deep dungeon run yesterday where i thought it bugged out when i hit 50 because i was doing the same attacks i was at like 20 and thats ridiculously dull.

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Yeah that's probably too similar to Alexander.

I wonder if he what meant was more not an actual dungeon from an older Final Fantasy but more so just something that "screams" Final Fantasy. Maybe some sort of castle with tons of traps reminiscent of older games in the series.

Crap thinking about older stuff makes me want more dungeons that are inspired by older games in the series like Pharos Sirius and The Great Library.

I would love to see a XIV version of Treno from IX, including the monster fight shop, stellazio coin collecting and gargant roo to uldah or something.

But i honestly expect 4.0s hildibrand story to imitate the opera house from 6 with ultros again.

Maybe get the english dub FMA voice actor for major armstrong to give godbert the pipes he needs for voice acting

[Sorrior]

I'd be hilarious if instead of one of each role they just added three dps jobs. As far as Red Mage I can totally see them being a hybrid of a melee and caster DPS role. Melee auto attacks that get enhanced by elemental spells and the occasional casted spell. Of course cant forget doublecast.

You know talking about the expansion reminds me of Yoshi-P saying that the new 24 man raid will be "very final fantasy". I wonder what we'll get so curious. I honestly cant think of anything from the top of my head that would have enough story there to fill a raid.



You're good to go. The only DPS check is during the add phase and its not even that rough.

Maybe they will go enh shammie and make it so we gain stacks or a chance at an instant cast..hmmm maybe we gain a stacking skill by comboing like warriors but it gives us cast speed reduction instead als maelstrom weapon wellll the old one

[Faroth]

He also pretty much summed up a lot of things that weren't relevant to the discussion. It would have been nice if you had actually put some effort into responding.

Moreso you dismiss anything that contradicts your stance as irrelevant.

Not bothering to discuss it further on my end. You guys have fun if you want to keep discussing why tanks have such a burden of great responsibility nobody understands.

[Aruhen]

Maybe they will go enh shammie and make it so we gain stacks or a chance at an instant cast..hmmm maybe we gain a stacking skill by comboing like warriors but it gives us cast speed reduction instead als maelstrom weapon wellll the old one

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. If you've ever played Ragnarok Online there's a class there called the Sage/Professor. It pretty much works in a similar way. Cast time spells with the ability to make them instant or usable while moving. The spells themselves were weaker versions of other classes but they mixed in melee damage during cast times. Was a really fun class.

https://youtu.be/grVuvQz6Cbo?t=59

[Granyala]

I've been trying to get back into the swing of things as a WAR though because they're so much fun too.

I've always shied away from WAR until recently, but you are right: they are a lot of fun.
DRK > WAR >> PLD would by my ranking.
@Faroth & @Wrecktangle: you two should get a room.

[dope_danny]

Maybe they will go enh shammie and make it so we gain stacks or a chance at an instant cast..hmmm maybe we gain a stacking skill by comboing like warriors but it gives us cast speed reduction instead als maelstrom weapon wellll the old one

Yeah i've been thinking it over since FFest but if summoner is a WoW affliction warlock i could very much see RDM function like an enhancement shaman.

[Faroth]

I've always shied away from WAR until recently, but you are right: they are a lot of fun.
DRK > WAR >> PLD would by my ranking.
@Faroth & @Wrecktangle: you two should get a room.

On the forums, they disagreed, but what tales be told behind closed doors?
SCANDALOUS! o.o

[Malackai]

Regarding tanking responsibilities, I wonder what would happen if WoW or FFXIV took away interrupts from tanks. Make it super-explicit that interrupting is the sole responsibility of the DPS. Would that be a positive change for the game (assume that all dps get similar interrupts)?

WoW has already pulled interrupts from healers.At least, my Holy paladin doesn't have an interrupt any more, though she does have a taunt for some reason. It's actually a bit annoying, as you occasionally run across a mob which heals while solo questing, and that's always a pain to deal with without interrupts and with lower dps.

You had no idea how annoyed I was when they started messing with the hunter interrupts/silence in MoP.
In legion they dont actually have it anymore interrupts I mean? cant remember it being on my bar then i was trying the new specs out.

Like Faroth mentioned a couple of post back.
back in the BC era it was so good know the difference between a good hunter and a bad one even differentiating a good player from the bad.. God I had so much more responsibilities back then to from Pulling, Kiteing and Chain CCing multiple mobs even assisting with interrupts or tranq. >_>
Was always fun to get complimented in the end of the run when I did a good CC job and it made playing your class actually involving.


Good thing I still get these fuzzy feelings in FF when I am playing my WHM. ^_^

[Kazgrel]

Red Mage's iconic weapon is rapier and they are classically a sword dueling caster that uses spells. I expect them to be melee caster rather than another typical ranged spell thrower.

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I don't care if it's a Tower of Babel or an Iron Giant (though it'd be a bit too Alexander redux for some), but I want the Four Elemental Fiends to show up in XIV one day.

Tower of Babel the next Deep Dungeon...maybe? That would be pretty cool.

The Giant of Babel/Iron Giant would be way too reminiscent of Alexander. Guess what I thought of when I first saw Alex back in 3.0?

[Granyala]

On the forums, they disagreed, but what tales be told behind closed doors?
SCANDALOUS! o.o

Oh... lots of really unethical and totally kinky stuff I'm sure. ^_^

[Graeham]

As far as possible dungeons and raids go for 4.0 I swear one of the screenshots looked like the Iifa tree from FFIX. If that's the case maybe we'd get Memoria as a 'raid zone' or a straight forward raid.

I know they're bringing in Eureka from FF3 but that's the only main title I never played myself. >.>

[Faroth]

Oh... lots of really unethical and totally kinky stuff I'm sure. ^_^

Not really, we just sit and script out our disagreements for future posts.

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I know they're bringing in Eureka from FF3 but that's the only main title I never played myself. >.>

It's not available on PSN, so I have the DS version. Recently finished II from the Origins PSN option. My friend tells me DS is not exactly the best version of it....but it's all I got.


Also, regarding Primal speculation, I just wanna say that foggy forest they showed in the zones would sure be a good place for a dragon. A....mist...dragon?

And on that note:
One thing my friend and I have speculated on is whether there's more to the Eikons than we know. Shiva and Bahamut were physical beings in Eorzea, their memory given the form of a Primal, but could it be possible there's another realm where Prime/Original versions of some of the Primals reside? A Land of Summoned Monsters, for instance.

Would possibly be an avenue of explanation for the more amicable Ifrit of 1.0's summon in contrast to the more ragey Ifrit. Each summon not being an actual summon OF the Primal, but a manifestation of them based on the mindset of the summoners.

Would also jive with Koji-Fox's teasing of a friendly Ifrit that roasts marshmallows in another realm where their perception of the being was different. Plus it would possibly work thinking that Ramuh's summon is his true form, since he willingly departed, as did Alexander upon its conclusion of calculations.

And, let's get super crazy, what if that came with them redesigning summoner LB to summon a random Primal for a 1-time attack, having learned to call upon their true incarnation, allowing them to arrive, attack, and return rather than draining ether from the land by their continued presence.

I know, we're just going a little "what if" crazy with it, but fun to imagine.

[Aruhen]

FF3 is on the PSN. You can play it on your PSP or PSVita. Its also on Steam. I could never get into it personally. Its so obtuse with certain things.

[Eleccybubb]

FF3 is on the PSN. You can play it on your PSP or PSVita. Its also on Steam. I could never get into it personally. Its so obtuse with certain things.

Meanwhile I have a Famicom with the game there whenever I want. /SMUGFACE

[Wrecktangle]

Moreso you dismiss anything that contradicts your stance as irrelevant.

Now now, that's not fair at all. I dismissed your points as irrelevant not because they contradict me (note: they don't), but because they aren't on topic of the discussion. A lot of your points I agree with, they're just not what I am talking about, like when Remilia started trying to get me to justify my skill at Osu as some kind of retort about the discussion.

Not bothering to discuss it further on my end. You guys have fun if you want to keep discussing why tanks have such a burden of great responsibility nobody understands.

A lot of people understood it, a lot of people didn't. To me, that sounds like good discussion.

Oh... lots of really unethical and totally kinky stuff I'm sure. ^_^

If I was a betting man, I'd argue he and would be good friends, probably 2 manning deep dungeons floors that aren't even out yet , or playing a fighting game together, etc. My brother and I have disagreements all the time, unlike Faroth though he's incapable of doing it without getting heated. So Kudos to him for that, but my brother and I are still best buds, so it is a possibility.

[Aruhen]

Meanwhile I have a Famicom with the game there whenever I want. /SMUGFACE

Wait the Japanese version? That game never came out in the west in its original version.

[Eleccybubb]

Wait the Japanese version? That game never came out in the west in its original version.

Yep. I have a Famicom modded to work over here . Got a translated cart as well. Original cart was not cheap I'm telling you.

[Aruhen]

Fuck that makes me sorta drool. I hate the 3D chibby remakes. The PS1 ports also have terrible load times which ruin the fun for me with how frequent battles are.

WTB a Final Fantasy Classic console (like the NES classic) that has 1-9 in their original forms.