[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Kyne]

It was just a comparison for the sake of perspective. Imagine if the GCD in WoW was raised by .5 seconds, the internet would flip. out. These changes make a big difference in the context of their systems while not necessarily dictating game balance absolutely due to the game design within their systems, that's all I was really trying to get at.

[willowe]

the internet would flip. out. .

No, WoW players would. My mom uses the internet and wouldn't give a crap.

[Kyne]

That's kind of who I was referring to, not every individual internet user on the face of the planet. You knew that, but you decided to post anyways. This is why I have this few posts after so many years.

[minianthunter]

It was just a comparison for the sake of perspective. Imagine if the GCD in WoW was raised by .5 seconds, the internet would flip. out. These changes make a big difference in the context of their systems while not necessarily dictating game balance absolutely due to the game design within their systems, that's all I was really trying to get at.

Sorry my reply was more pointed at zito who seems to be having a fit over a game he/she has probably never play and is comparing it to different genres.

As for your example for WoW, yes the internet would flip out over the GCD going up .5 seconds, but the problem with that is, it has been 6? 7? 8? years that the game has been at 1.5 GCD or less (for certain classes and more recently with haste rating). The new FF14 has been in beta for only probably less than a year, who knows maaaaybe it will go down another .5?

But what would that solve? Your skills still cost MP or TP? I think it is? You will just run out of those mid fight, then there will be long down times between fights(probably one of the WORST aspects of any game is waiting a long time between fights), or you end up doing stuff less than every 3 seconds in combat til the enemy dies, and trust me that's even worse then a long GCD. You might say then lower the GCD and increase regen of your resources, but then they would need to lower the damage you deal to balance it out, otherwise you will explode the mobs that were balanced around a different system. Just up the HP of the mobs? Not that simple when not every skill deals straight damage. Then the end result will be the same except you are needlessly destroying your keyboard/gamepad.

I'm sure some elitist will come in and say that you must be mentally challenged to not be able to push buttons quickly enough, which might have some truth to it, but is it really a fun gameplay? The PS3 controller only has so many buttons on it so that means our skills will be limited between 4 to 12 during combat.

[Kyne]

Your post highlights the complexity of GCD as a game function. There is no single best solution, just lots of different solutions with different problems that arise based on this game's particular combat system. My hope is that they bring it down to a 2 second cooldown since that seems like adequate input time for even a gamepad user. This is even assuming that gameplay is being balanced around the gamepad, and for all we know it isn't anyways.

As for Gamepad ability usage, it's shown off a bit in a Developer Commentary Video. The player will be able to bind up to 16 buttons at a time, while PC users will have access to up to 5 full ability bars (1 thru =) at a time. The ability bars are bound to your class similar to World of Warcraft's spec-based bars and are saved so you don't have to change them every time you swap classes.

There hasn't been any official confirmation on any changes to existing game systems for the time being and when Phase 3 begins, more changes are implemented, and the NDA is peeled off, we'll know a lot more.

[minianthunter]

Your post highlights the complexity of GCD as a game function. There is no single best solution, just lots of different solutions with different problems that arise based on this game's particular combat system.

That is exactly my point, whining that they should lower it to something because they want it to be "quick" so its more like the "action" games that aren't even MMOs, yet they don't even bother to think about the ripple effect it causes.

I also agree with you at putting it down to 2 seconds, I can't say that 2.5 seconds feels too slow or clunky because I haven't played it but I hope they find the fine line balance of quick enough so combat is engaging and reactive, and the animations don't look silly sped up too much, compared to the I am waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting like it was in FF11 (for what little I played of it).

[Zilong]

I almost bought the first try and I was glad I didn't (of course). And it's granted that FF people will like it no matter what but I think this will block other possible players (Regardless if this revamp is a service for the FF people). But I'm intrigued by the GCD, never thought about it too much but it certainly seems a big deal. Seeing the dungeon vid (not sure if it's too dif from what it's now) makes it really boring, omg. Why don't they just make it Tatics (The only real FF games I played XD) and be over with it. Yes this is a personal opinion of mine. Is there pvp in this game? And if so how the hell it will work? Like staring contest with no turns?? XD (just jk).

It would seem that the improvement is there in many aspects of the game (as the guy says) and I actually come here with an open mind, but right now I'm one step back again. I need more data on this, right now I feel like alt tabbing for 3 secs XD (yeah I joke alot) XD.

I read all arguments from both sides but till now doesn't seem to be a good combat scenario here. Are they trying to bring "new players"?

It's not that the combat can't be fun with big GCD but it def needs to compensate elsewhere. From what I've seen it's not there.

Also, couldn't they just make resources wise? Less GCD? From what the guy said on that article he only faced a bit of a problem to a spam best attack every 2.5 secs...

[nocturnus]

That's stupid for 2 reasons.

1) Balancing it around just gamepad
2) Everyone will stack the crap out of GCD reduction stats/skills

Here is an added bonus of the combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe09gta0WAw

Granted it's alpha but .5 sec isn't going to change much.

This will be their downfall... again

Seriously how did they get action turn based combat (FF13) to this stand and do nothing for 3 seconds combat (FF14) then to action combat (FF 13 versus)?

Unfortunately that's not its only problem. The GCD is ridiculous and I doubt we'll see any changes due to the fact that the game needs to be balanced for joypads as well.

The combat has another huge problem, it's the trivial existence of spells/attacks. There usually is no reason to use any other ability other than your hardest hitting one. Your TP is virtually inexhaustible (granted, it's "only beta"). This is something that has to be fixed. Also, abilities are rather dull and have little synergy among each other.

Combat needs some serious work.

[philefluxx]

Considering FF 13 has better combat then this I expected something.... not so generic? I mean they are trying to revamp their old game and all you think they would do something else.

If i had to pay $15 a month I would go with rift or WoW seeing as they do recent updates and their first launch didn't crash and burn and take a year to fix and go f2p after the first few months because of it.

*cough*

Hmmm. FF13 has menu style combat just like its predecessors. The only real difference is that when running through the map you can see your enemies, its not random encounters so I'm not really sure what you mean here. Chrono Trigger did the same thing with visible encounters.

It's not that unreasonable, especially considering there have been a range of turn-based to action-based combat systems in the whole series.

To my knowledge the only action-based is the more recently announced FF13:Versus. What other FF title was action based? I didn't play X2 so is that the one I'm missing?

To be perfectly honest, I've been rather surprised at the changes to the combat system. XI's menu system was horrid with a keyboard and mouse essentially requiring a gamepad to effectively bounce between menu's that you set your custom macro's on. XIV's 1.0 menu system was even a step back from that. So really any system better than that at this point is a huge improvement.

But FF, in my opinion, should have slower combat. Maybe not XI slow, but not WoW and especially not GW2 fast. As long as the combat speed is built around the strategy and tactics of the game it should work out great. I remember in 1.0 you were animation locked, you had to plan for that when a boss might ramp up a heavy hitting ability. That almost but not quite turn based flavor is, in my opinion, how you make a Final Fantasy game a MMORPG without taking away the Final Fantasy combat we have always known and loved. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Kyne]

Zilong, for more information I definitely recommend browsing through the Letter from the Producers section of the official forums for some light reading, it'll at least provide insight to the design decisions behind the game even if you happen to dislike or disagree with it.

[Deleted]

No, Yoshi specifically said it would not be ready for open beta.



Read here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61657

or
See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjoh3...lpage#t=805.1s

Very sorry for the poor information I stated then. That does however still sound worrying to me though, open beta is the final test phase4 which is 1-2 weeks in duration. Surely they cant be releasing the class untested?

[Shink]

Very sorry for the poor information I stated then. That does however still sound worrying to me though, open beta is the final test phase4 which is 1-2 weeks in duration. Surely they cant be releasing the class untested?

Would you release everything you have planned for a game @ the start of testing?

[Deleted]

Would you release everything you have planned for a game @ the start of testing?

No not at all, but I would include a whole entire class for testing at some point in the testing phase.

Phase 1 (closed beta 1-4 weeks) > Phase 2 (closed beta 1-3 weeks) > Phase 3 (Closed Beta NDA lifted 1-3 weeks) > Phase 4 (open Beta 1-2 weeks) > Launch

If the Arcanist/summoner wont be able to make it to open beta (phased 4) when does it get tested?

OFC this is subject to change I guess but either we will see an extended testing period for the game or something worse.

EDIT: Found an image of the testing scedule.

[Shink]

No not at all, but I would include a whole entire class for testing at some point in the testing phase.

Phase 1 (closed beta 1-4 weeks) > Phase 2 (closed beta 1-3 weeks) > Phase 3 (Closed Beta NDA lifted 1-3 weeks) > Phase 4 (open Beta 1-2 weeks) > Launch

If the Arcanist/summoner wont be able to make it to open beta (phased 4) when does it get tested?

OFC this is subject to change I guess but either we will see an extended testing period for the game or something worse.

EDIT: Found an image of the testing scedule.

i wouldn't trust that schedule & we still don't know which phase it'll come in

[Deleted]

i wouldn't trust that schedule & we still don't know which phase it'll come in

Well I'm trusting it, its been spot on so far. Yoshi P said in latest prodcution letter that the class wont be making open beta.

[zaxlor]

Big picture SNIP

At least they're going to have another open beta, but unless the game has a fantastic first 3-5 hours, it's going to be FF14 all over again. After playing the open beta of that, I was just so bored and turned off by how un-interesting the combat, world, quests and classes were. I think they'd almost be better not having an open beta and trying to claw some money back via box and digital sales, because you know full well people are going to be spamming forums with "lol it's FF14 v2 and it STILL sucks!" or "Why do my moves lag???" because people don't understand about the GDC being longer.

Fingers crossed it's going to be good. Fingers crossed they don't make it a sub based game. Fingers crossed they go back in time, re-make it as a multi player Tactics game with stylised graphics, characters from all the FF games and launch that instead.

I think i just broke my right hand

[Deleted]

The thing most people expect from FF14 which a I've seen a lot of people arguing over in the last few pages is "is it trying to be a super accessible mmo like WoW that you can jump right into" and although the devs have been trying to improve this I still think FF14 caters to more patient player who enjoys a more realistic virtual world.

If you don't like to read story text, take in great scenery, take in the lore of the game, roleplay then I think you're going to have a bad time in FF14 RR. I think many WoW players will dismiss it early which although seems a shame, I think is a great thing aslong as the game has enough subs to remain going.

I think it will be more like WoW back in the day before it became a casual fest, things will take time to do and the game will feel more of a virtual world. Will that mean it will be more successful than WoW/ other modern mmos? No I don't think so as the dumb masses will prefer more accessible mmos. I hope FF14RR doesn't cater to them too much as if they had their way there would be no levelling, no quest text, instant epics ECT.

[Boomcats]

Yeah if you think this vid's combat looks slow, go try FFXI for a little- its the slowest thing on the planet.

I'm not for a GW2 model combat system for a game focused on raiding. I love GW2 (especially PvP) but honestly I could never see legit end game content being that difficult for skilled players. Either that or the complete opposite end of the spectrum and its impossible. That kind of combat system doesn't work for RPG's.
I know the trend is going towards faster paced combat, but I'm not sure what to do to make this better. Do you want to lower the GCD to 1.5 seconds and play WoW?

I don't really know the fix and for sure I'll be buying this game to at least give it a go, but I do agree something with the combat needs to be changed.

[Ichy]

Gunna Chime in here on the whole GCD thing and FF vs WoW vs Other MMOs.

WoW's gcd works for it because timing and positioning are less important to its game play and mechanics. Where as FF tends to focus more on these aspects than many other games. Before I go further, I will say that timing and positioning do play a role in WoW, but its not as much a focus as it is in the FF mmo series. FF historically has a focus on group play, which we can see in XI with Skill Chains, EXP chains, Magic Bursts that require Timing to get the most out of. In addition to that, positioning takes a bigger role as well. In XIV 1.0 as a lancer, (I felt) we needed to move and re position our selves to get the most out of certain abilities and combos, the same can be said for XI's Ranger's or /Rng setups and had to move in and out of melee/range to maximize the potential of their weapon skills or abilities.

In specific instances WoW does have notion to that, like Rogues needing to be behind their target to Sap or Back stab. I, in a general sense, feel WoW is more of a group of individuals working to take a boss down where ass FF is a group individuals working together to complete a common task (grouping for exp, dungeons, raids). This is in general, as there is some working together in WoW (healers-> tanks/dps), but its not nearly as "intricate" as it is for FF.

Now coming back to the whole 2.5sec GCD being to long debate. I think its being taken out of context a little. Do to FF's nature of focusing more on group interaction to accomplish a task, I feel the 2.5sec base will be fine. It won't be as instant as wow, but it will be faster than FF. Kind of a happy medium if you ask me, which is fine as groups will need the extra time (over long fights) To get into position, to make sure they have timings down right to cause skill chain damage or magic burst, or start the next pull for the exp chain.

[philefluxx]

Snip....

I couldn't agree more.