[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Scufflegrit]

I picked up the tank chest and healing legs, both during early runs. Since then I've mostly focused on MNK gear from there. I would like to eventually get the tank boots from Weeping City to finish my glamour, but I swear every tank in my groups always roll Need on absolutely everything, even when in full 270 gear. :/

[Kyriani]

FF14 is already identical to WoW. I don't want it to be. I want it to be better than WoW, but most importantly I want it to be better than itself. FF14 is too complacent. It needs to break the formula. It needs to grow.

Comments like this worry me. "Breaking the formula" that attracted so many people to play the game in the first place, is the same thing WoW did and led us to where we are today. I won't deny WoW gained good features over the years (transmog being one of the best IMO), but what did it lose along the way in an effort to "grow"? Quite a lot... far too much in fact IMO.

I don't want the formula broken. Maybe evolve in a VERY conservative fashion, but not broken. I like the formula just the way it is. That doesn't mean growth can't happen though. New features and changes are forthcoming in Stormblood, yet the "formula" will likely not stray too far from what we know now.

I don't want FFXIV to be like WoW, where every xpac flips every class upside down with changes and relearning. I like stability, familiarity and consistent gameplay. I want things to play as I expect them to play, the way they've played for years. I don't want to log in one day to find everything I knew is now something else entirely.

I've criticized WoW for making change for the sake of change. In fact that's probably the core criticism I've had about WoW since the end of WotLK when Cata "broke the formula" and set us on the path that led us to WoD, with Legion trying to pick up the pieces and salvage what it can from the damage that was done. FFXIV doesn't need that as far as I am concerned. It just needs to give us amazing and immersive stories along with consistent gameplay. That doesn't mean changes can't be made or that new things can't be added, it just means the core philosophy of how the game is designed doesn't need to be upended just because it's been a certain way for a long time. When something is not broken, you don't need to fix it.

[Granyala]

Not to pick on you bud, but I think you misunderstood my post lol. I explained how in WoW and FF14 the gear differential between Mythic and Heroic is pretty identical to savage to normal thus they're not doing 2x your damage in either scenario.

You still don't get it.
I DON'T RAID (8.5yrs of organized, scheduled play are enough^^). I also don't do M+, because I can't be arsed to race against some dumb clock.

Not in PuGs, not in organized form.
As such, I will never get HC gear in WoW, because in order to do that I would be required to raid properly (again^^).

Meaning: my character will never reach the level of a heroic raider. So, unless I an smiled upon by RNG, I will be stuck BELOW what a normal raider has, meaning there is a huge gap between my character and some dude running around in i900+.

In FF that doesn't matter because raiding is not required in order to RELIABLY get great gear. In FF I get HC raid gear equivalents from tomes, so when I get paired with a savage raider in DS, the gap is much smaller.

That's one major reason why I prefer FF-XIV over WoW, because FF doesn't make you feel like a 3rd class citizen fighting for scraps provided by RNG if you don't happen to like the raiding playstyle any longer.

I honestly prefer the Coil method without a normal DF mode.

No thanks. The Alex setup is way better and allows everyone to see the content on the fly.
To this day, I still haven't managed to see final coil (though my guild leder promised to take me on a tour).

[Slirith]

So, I got suspended on the official forums for making "insulting" tags on a topic regarding the ilvl 280 weapons from the new Diadem. Seems the mods consider "salty" "whiner" as insults. What are we, 6?

[The Casualty]

So, I got suspended on the official forums for making "insulting" tags on a topic regarding the ilvl 280 weapons from the new Diadem. Seems the mods consider "salty" "whiner" as insults. What are we, 6?

Yeah the official forums are a cesspit of the uninformed and salty mods who will ban you for the silliest offenses. I keep to here and reddit. At least Dervy can still post on reddit, and I like reading his theorycrafting and numbers.

[Wrecktangle]

Uhh... no.

It's the same argument seen in VGD. Since other games have it therefore it's fine while consistently bringing up WoW.
If a game can't stand it's own on it's own merit or lack there of then it should be able to be criticized on it's own. If you can't criticize it without bringing up another game every time then you're doing nothing better than arguing for it to become the game.
The criticisms that stands on it's own without relying on other games is as like the Stormblood/Combat revamp threads with combos or cleric stance and such. I don't really have much opinion on that. If you need a benchmark back drop then... well... that's how we get a stagnant market. While that's not necessarily on topic it's still a thing that I've worried whenever this happens.

I dismantled your entire post step by step and this is the response you give me? Please just go back and edit your previous post regarding it being painfully obvious that I want FF14 to be Wow; since twice now I've proven that wrong and it is not good to spread misinformation on forums. A moderator really should know better.

I will add though that I think you're projecting your own self hatred/bias on me (maybe you hate WoW or something I don't know) as I was very clear when I gave criticism on FF14 by itself and by other games. I also think you don't know what a benchmark is or what its purpose is.

Benchmarks don't create stagnant markets. Benchmarks give you a baseline for what is well received. You then try to IMPROVE ON THAT to become the new benchmark. That's called competition and is very good for the market.

Why wouldn't they last?

Where are the masses of people who are shriveling on the vine of XIV with no progression and crying for something to come their way? Seriously, are there multitudes of forum posts and tweets I've never seen?

They wouldn't last because the existing game model wouldn't support them. Those types of players (and I know them personally, my brother, IRL friends, and co-raiders are all these players) don't have enough meaningful content to do so they quit. This is of course anecdotal, but it's roughly 10 people I PERSONALLY know and play other games with (hint: not just WoW) that get bored by this game. Some of their reasons are valid, some aren't. Please understand that meaningful content to say you and I is not the same as them and that's fine.

Your second point is silly and you know it Faroth. Not everyone posts on the forums. In fact an incredibly small subset of players actually do.

He's also acknowledged looking at a way to perma-desync to play with someone rather than just in FATEs and allow the new player to do solo trials in quests without breaking group.

The first thing I'm not sure would even be an improvement honestly. The second is a huge QoL improvement IMO.

Almost 20 years of MMO experience has suggested otherwise. The more "robust" a system gets, the faster it completely breaks out of any semblence of balance and what in the entire history of MMOs suggests theorycrafters won't immediately negate a portion of options and narrow in on a handful of "right way to do it" solutions?

You know FF14 theorycrafters had the DRG opener wrong for a really long time before someone else corrected them. Funnily enough I learned it when I was grouped with a top DRG and saw his ACT #s. I looked at his ability usage and figured out he was doing something different and asked. In BNS people had Assassin builds all wrong at 2 specific patches I remember. I hesitate to even bring up WoW, but the countless times theorycrafters have been wrong there. A very real Demon Hunter example: theorycrafters wrote off a talent, only to find out later is was stupid strong with no changes because they had bad assumptions in their models.

Look I'm not saying perfect balance here. I'm saying good balance. Are you trying to say that you believe there is no way a materia system could work that was interesting and somewhat balanced? That I very firmly disagree with.

Necessitating that not every piece of gear you come across is forever useable means crafting doesn't become totally irrelvant immediately upon acquisition.

I know the convenience factor dictates "screw that," but if you're building a world that keeps the crafters working as part of an economy, it's something to consider. And Yoshida's team doesn't seem to like old crafting becoming pointless as they keep bringing older items back into play. Limited storage of gear ppl never use (honestly, I'm sure a lot, including myself, have 3 pages of retainer inventory with gear we never use for glamour and really could get rid of, but don't) means a desire to re-acquire it means getting a crafter to make it for you.

Every piece of gear isn't forever useable. The glamour of it would be. That said, I can see where you are going and I agree. There would need to be some improvement for crafters (but I think that needs to happen regardless, short of a few specific things crafters don't really do anything for me).

Sort of like brawler's guild but more going on?

Yeah, and honestly I'm not opposed to the idea of the battle arena being party wide or a different format (2s? 3s?). The general idea was that the mobs spawned would be RNG (model wise) and they would have randomly generated mechanics (from various dungeons/bosses). You might RNG a monster that you couldn't kill with whatever buffs you were slotted against, but that's the risk/reward of the arena.

1. Move faster becomes a necessity since it speeds you out of mechanics faster. Run up walls would be amusing, but kind of weird. I'd love to see climbing, though.

To be fair in BNS those were strictly world things that were used outside of combat. Adding climbing and swimming to the mix fit the bill pretty decently. You could learn dives, push off walls to speed up, holding breath longer, faster swim speed, etc.

However that said, it's ok if they're a necessity. The point is that they're gameplay enhancing/changing growth that isn't ilvl.

Comments like this worry me. "Breaking the formula" that attracted so many people to play the game in the first place, is the same thing WoW did and led us to where we are today. I won't deny WoW gained good features over the years (transmog being one of the best IMO), but what did it lose along the way in an effort to "grow"? Quite a lot... far too much in fact IMO.

The problem is that you think the game won't get stale if it keeps doing the same thing? You're going to run into an issue where a new player has to sit through 70+ hours of single player content to play with his friends or to get to a class he wants to play? That's going to cause the playerbase to shrink. You think its ok creating new dungeons that are obsolete the instant they are released in terms of gear and engagement? You think players want to go out of their way to do fates after having done them ad nauseam for each silly step of a relic weapon.

I don't want the formula broken. Maybe evolve in a VERY conservative fashion, but not broken. I like the formula just the way it is. That doesn't mean growth can't happen though. New features and changes are forthcoming in Stormblood, yet the "formula" will likely not stray too far from what we know now.

What new features and changes are coming in Stormblood that you know about that I don't?

I don't want FFXIV to be like WoW, where every xpac flips every class upside down with changes and relearning. I like stability, familiarity and consistent gameplay. I want things to play as I expect them to play, the way they've played for years. I don't want to log in one day to find everything I knew is now something else entirely.

I don't know about you, but HW kinda did that IMO. Having to learn how to use BotD felt like a new class. I can appreciate you want consistency and will chalk that up to you and I wanting different things, but that sounds like you don't like how it currently is in FF14 and don't want to learn any new abilities since they'll change how your class is played.

I've criticized WoW for making change for the sake of change. In fact that's probably the core criticism I've had about WoW since the end of WotLK when Cata "broke the formula" and set us on the path that led us to WoD, with Legion trying to pick up the pieces and salvage what it can from the damage that was done. FFXIV doesn't need that as far as I am concerned. It just needs to give us amazing and immersive stories along with consistent gameplay. That doesn't mean changes can't be made or that new things can't be added, it just means the core philosophy of how the game is designed doesn't need to be upended just because it's been a certain way for a long time. When something is not broken, you don't need to fix it.

You're implying that FF14 is currently perfect, which isn't true. It most certainly has had and still has broken pieces, some of which have been fixed along the way.

You still don't get it.
I DON'T RAID (8.5yrs of organized, scheduled play are enough^^). I also don't do M+, because I can't be arsed to race against some dumb clock.

Not in PuGs, not in organized form.
As such, I will never get HC gear in WoW, because in order to do that I would be required to raid properly (again^^).

Meaning: my character will never reach the level of a heroic raider. So, unless I an smiled upon by RNG, I will be stuck BELOW what a normal raider has, meaning there is a huge gap between my character and some dude running around in i900+.

In FF that doesn't matter because raiding is not required in order to RELIABLY get great gear. In FF I get HC raid gear equivalents from tomes, so when I get paired with a savage raider in DS, the gap is much smaller.

That's one major reason why I prefer FF-XIV over WoW, because FF doesn't make you feel like a 3rd class citizen fighting for scraps provided by RNG if you don't happen to like the raiding playstyle any longer.

I don't understand why people are so against clocks in M+? I happen to actually like it. Gives a sense of urgency and planning. I mean do you want M+ timer removed? If so I'd just do a +50 keystone and wait 10 minutes for every pull with double pot and hero/lust and all available cooldowns. It would trivialize it tremendously.

That said I do better understand where you are coming from now. It sounds dangerously like participation medal ideology which I'm against (log in do trivial content get free semi powerful gear to make already trivial content more trivial) but I won't judge your playstyle fam since you're one of the few good ones

[Kazgrel]

I wonder if it just means the number of none tanks with an alt tank job they still gear up behind their main is way smaller than the other jobs?

Oddly enough, I'm such a dps whose main alt is tank, followed by healer (WHM specifically; I dabble in all the tanks for some odd reason). I already had my scripture gear done on BLM and had fair amount of the shire gear for tank by the time 3.5 hit.

That being said, I've also capped scripture every week they've been available, which isn't going to be the case for everyone.

[Katchii]

I've always found official forums for any game to be overly sensitive and not really good for open discussion. They're the best place to post constructive feedback for the game though, but just having a critical discussion about a feature or decision...yeah, don't do that it just turns into a white knight flame war that gets shut down and if you're the one that started it you're likely to get a suspension or ban or something just as stupid.

[Kyriani]

snip

I don't think any game is "perfect". I just like the general formula FFXIV uses. I am not opposed to new abilities being added to classes as time goes on. What I am opposed to is upending classes or core functions of the game from top to bottom. How WoW gutted talent trees in Cata and then replaced them entirely in MoP is a good example. Various classes playing one way and then being changed dramatically in how they play and what their abilities do from xpac to xpac kinda sucks.

FFXIV isn't immune to that either. Look at what happened to Bards and Black Mages in Heaven's Ward with Wanderer's Minuet and Enochian. Bards turned into physical caster dps, and Black Mages played one way entirely till they got to around 58-60 and suddenly had to do finger gymnastics to maintain a buff vital to their dps (which is being changed in Stormblood fortunately).

I'm not opposed to changes and additions that still stay within the formula for the most part. But outside of class mechanics, the formula I like most is how I don't have to raid to get great gear. I can do the content I like and use tomestones to eventually get competitive armor and follow the relic questline for a competitive weapon. I like how that formula works and I'd generally like to see that formula continue.

I am less interested in the complexities of gear and combat than I am about having engaging and immersive stories to experience. The STORY is what the game is all about IMO. Skipping the story is like paying to NOT play the game. It makes no sense to me. If the later unlocked jobs were designed to start at level 1 I'd say make them available at character creation, but they aren't. They are content that gets unlocked by playing the game, just like raids, primals, etc. Skipping ahead cause you don't feel like doing the prereqs is again like paying to skip playing the product you paid for. It makes no sense to me and is something I will never agree with.

As for features, I know of the same ones you do. I have no inside knowledge. Diving seems like it will be interesting for people who like to explore (like me) and swimming is long overdue and welcome. New jobs, new locales, new job abilities, more inventory, I have a lot to look forward to.

[Aruhen]

The new player made design contest sets are in.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...8d3b8910d3b41b

http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/range...hSrgMGk/39.jpg
http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/healer/mQjY33nEZw/09.jpg

^ My personal favorites. Really love the look of a lot of them though.

[Granyala]

I don't understand why people are so against clocks in M+?

That said I do better understand where you are coming from now. It sounds dangerously like participation medal ideology which I'm against (log in do trivial content get free semi powerful gear to make already trivial content more trivial) but I won't judge your playstyle fam since you're one of the few good ones

General characteristic of me. Playing against a clock (in any game/genre) completely stresses me out and ruins my fun. Can't help it. I am aware that there are many people that enjoy that kind of thing, so I would never demand a removal of the timer.

"participation medal" Not really, since I am FOR a difference in power.
Ever since I started to play a musical instrument though, I realized that almost nothing is actually hard in an MMO. That includes non world first mythic raiding. Serious here: the effort I used to put into killing any given raidboss, HC/mythic or otherwise, is utterly pathetic compared to what I have to do in order to get through even simple musical pieces.
So, forgive me, if I don't see clearing a raid many months after release as some sort of achievement worthy of praise.

I get the logistical challenges, I get that people need to be incentivized to stick with it, but there is 0 reason for a power differential as ridiculous as in WoW.

FF-XIV does this one right.

[Wrecktangle]

I am less interested in the complexities of gear and combat than I am about having engaging and immersive stories to experience. The STORY is what the game is all about IMO. Skipping the story is like paying to NOT play the game. It makes no sense to me. If the later unlocked jobs were designed to start at level 1 I'd say make them available at character creation, but they aren't. They are content that gets unlocked by playing the game, just like raids, primals, etc. Skipping ahead cause you don't feel like doing the prereqs is again like paying to skip playing the product you paid for. It makes no sense to me and is something I will never agree with.

As for features, I know of the same ones you do. I have no inside knowledge. Diving seems like it will be interesting for people who like to explore (like me) and swimming is long overdue and welcome. New jobs, new locales, new job abilities, more inventory, I have a lot to look forward to.

I'm good with everything else you said above that I didn't quote. That is your preference and I respect that.

While I too appreciate story much more than people here probably think (I don't skip cutscenes and FWIW my favorite games tend to be VERY story heavy, a la Xenogears), I also understand that an MMO still needs to have riveting gameplay to keep the game fresh. Your avg story content lasts what 2-4 hours on a 3.x patch right (not skipping cutscenes)? That's not nearly enough to get away with a stale development model.

One key distinction I think you fail to realize is that this game is an MMORPG. Not a single player RPG. That means that sometimes concessions should be made for player enjoyment at the cost of immersion. There needs to be a fine line obviously, but to dismiss the desire to be able to group with friends in a meaningful capacity early on is very disheartening. I feel as though you're looking down from your ivory tower saying I don't need that so you shouldn't either without taking my plight into consideration.

[Graeham]

I haven't been banned yet on the official forum but I know quite a lot of people who have been - either temporarily or permanently. Sometimes it's as harmless as calling another poster a jerk - so you need to be extra cautious about how you word a post. Now, if they took an equally harsh stance on win trading and botting then I'd overlook the excessively harsh moderation.

[Granyala]

I haven't been banned yet on the official forum but I know quite a lot of people who have been - either temporarily or permanently. Sometimes it's as harmless as calling another poster a jerk - so you need to be extra cautious about how you word a post.

Which is as it should be.
Even in the face of stubborness and disagreements we all should respect each other.

[Wrecktangle]

General characteristic of me. Playing against a clock (in any game/genre) completely stresses me out and ruins my fun. Can't help it. I am aware that there are many people that enjoy that kind of thing, so I would never demand a removal of the timer.

"participation medal" Not really, since I am FOR a difference in power.
Ever since I started to play a musical instrument though, I realized that almost nothing is actually hard in an MMO. That includes non world first mythic raiding. Serious here: the effort I used to put into killing any given raidboss, HC/mythic or otherwise, is utterly pathetic compared to what I have to do in order to get through even simple musical pieces.
So, forgive me, if I don't see clearing a raid many months after release as some sort of achievement worthy of praise.

I get the logistical challenges, I get that people need to be incentivized to stick with it, but there is 0 reason for a power differential as ridiculous as in WoW.

FF-XIV does this one right.

Fair enough. Its hard for me to associate because I don't draw stress from gaming. I have this issue IRL too where my GF is stressed about work, but I don't run into that either so its hard to empathize.

I do want to point out that I use trivial as a measure of engagement not difficulty. While they're certainly correlated, I am referring to the idea that content requires very little input, very little risk, and very little reward. I also don't draw praise from gaming, but I do enjoy accomplishing things that engage me. Sometimes it can be something easy (see Nier: Automata, (even on hard) but very engaging because the combat is fluid and fun, the world id stunning (albeit small ) and the story is pretty good so far. Sometimes its something hard, that requires a ton of input and thought like beating my tennis rival in a match.

One last piece FF14 doesn't do it right. It does it better . I say this because I don't like the idea of saying it doesn't have room to improve. Every game does

[Granyala]

Honestly, I feel far more enganged in FF when I'm running daily dungeons and Void Ark/City/Dun in order to acquire and upgrade my 270 gear
compared to the "logging in for raids only" in WoW.

But I guess that's a matter of perspective too.

- - - Updated - - -

One last piece FF14 doesn't do it right. It does it better . I say this because I don't like the idea of saying it doesn't have room to improve. Every game does

I think we can settle on that.

[Remilia]

I dismantled your entire post step by step and this is the response you give me? Please just go back and edit your previous post regarding it being painfully obvious that I want FF14 to be Wow; since twice now I've proven that wrong and it is not good to spread misinformation on forums. A moderator really should know better.

I will add though that I think you're projecting your own self hatred/bias on me (maybe you hate WoW or something I don't know) as I was very clear when I gave criticism on FF14 by itself and by other games. I also think you don't know what a benchmark is or what its purpose is.

Benchmarks don't create stagnant markets. Benchmarks give you a baseline for what is well received. You then try to IMPROVE ON THAT to become the new benchmark. That's called competition and is very good for the market.

Considering this is the shit I've seen over 5 years in VGD, I'd take my own view of it over yours.

Benchmarks give you things like "this isn't like Skyrim, GTA 5, etc" and such. There's even a complaint about Horizon not being like Skyrim instead of letting it be it's own game. The only thing that should matter is having fun and believe it or not, that is extremely subjective. Not everything needs to be bigger than the competition especially when it ends up alienating it's core player base. Starwars Galaxy Pre-NGE and Post-NGE is a great example of trying to become bigger and better but it destroyed their core player base which lead to it's eventual collapse. People that keep using benchmarks and will make it feel like every game that doesn't meet is shit (this happens way too much) instead of having fun in it's own right.

[Kazgrel]

Starwars Galaxy Pre-NGE and Post-NGE is a great example of trying to become bigger and better but it destroyed their core player base which lead to it's eventual collapse.

*twitching in chair*

That game will forever be the posterchild of "what might have been". To go further would be to run things off the rails here.

- - - Updated - - -

The new player made design contest sets are in.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...8d3b8910d3b41b

http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/range...hSrgMGk/39.jpg
http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/healer/mQjY33nEZw/09.jpg

^ My personal favorites. Really love the look of a lot of them though.

The one by BlazingCobalt is the one I like most of the caster ones I checked out.

Lot of them look eerily similar to sets already in game, but I suppose that's simply going to happen at some point.

[Remilia]

The new player made design contest sets are in.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...8d3b8910d3b41b

http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/range...hSrgMGk/39.jpg
http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/healer/mQjY33nEZw/09.jpg

^ My personal favorites. Really love the look of a lot of them though.

Some reason that healer one you linked reminds me of Atelier series.
Also the carbuncle outfit, hahaha I'd get that.
http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/range...hSrgMGk/07.jpg

[Kyriani]

I'm good with everything else you said above that I didn't quote. That is your preference and I respect that.

While I too appreciate story much more than people here probably think (I don't skip cutscenes and FWIW my favorite games tend to be VERY story heavy, a la Xenogears), I also understand that an MMO still needs to have riveting gameplay to keep the game fresh. Your avg story content lasts what 2-4 hours on a 3.x patch right (not skipping cutscenes)? That's not nearly enough to get away with a stale development model.

One key distinction I think you fail to realize is that this game is an MMORPG. Not a single player RPG. That means that sometimes concessions should be made for player enjoyment at the cost of immersion. There needs to be a fine line obviously, but to dismiss the desire to be able to group with friends in a meaningful capacity early on is very disheartening. I feel as though you're looking down from your ivory tower saying I don't need that so you shouldn't either without taking my plight into consideration.

I am grouping with a friend right now who just joined and is lvl 14 on his first class. Even as a lvl 60 I can queue up with him for guildhests and dungeons, and sync down with him doing fates. I may not be able to do everything with him but there is content I can engage with him. Its about doing stuff at my friends level rather than rushing him to mine and making him miss all the amazing content along the way.