Concerning the alarming increase in single tank fights.

[Deleted]

Aight, I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm in a 25 man guild and my experience from 10 man is our alt run. I can understand how 10 man roster is harder to balance. That was my point in the previous post, 10 man is all about flexibility and attendance in my eyes. If you have people with only 1 spec good enough for progression or low attendance, then you are being forced to have a bigger roster. That would result in having to do heavy rotation and adjustments all the time, regardless of the fight design.

Also, the ONLY fight in FL that was designed for 1 tank is domo. People prefer 1 tanking rhyo and baleroc cos it's easier to meet the dps requirements that way (in that alt run i mentioned, we use 2 tanks for both and still manage). But even if you count these, it's 3/7. Yea that's defo more than half. Please don't mention Alys, there is absolutely no dps check there forcing you use 1 tank.

[Rvlzr]

Should bosses enrage if they detect fewer than x healers in the raid as well so healers don't get their feelings hurt when they are swapped out or asked to use their dps spec?

[Nobleshield]

The biggest problem that I see is that it kinda forces 10m to rotate people, which means you have hurt feelings and stunted progression on the individual level. Hurt feelings because you might have to sit a longtime raider because their OS isn't as good as somebody else's MS or just because of comp purposes (e.g. the fact very few fights are friendly to melee but favor ranged). Stunted progress because, let's face it, as I've said many times in the past personal progression is what matters at the end of the day, not guild progress. You can be in a 7/7H guild but if you personally don't have HM kills, good luck being taken seriously or getting into a better guild. Being rotated in and out of a fight means it takes longer for you to get that kill, longer for you to get that loot, and therefore longer for you to progress, and if you are repeatedly sat it hurts you even more because if/when you look at another guild, you're less likely to get in because you don't have that kill, but you don't have that kill because the fight was designed so that you weren't needed, and therefore you were rotated out constantly.

[Recar]

guess it turns out that ppl who were against dualspec are right in the end i think i remember some saying: dual spec shouldnt force anyone to play a role they are not comfortable with. and that whole: spec dps-os or gtfo is really annoying, almost like the: you can spec tank do it or dont whine about queue times!

[Mammoth]

I'm still pissed about 25 mans. I used to run the tanks in a 25 man guild during Wrath. I would have a team of 3 tanks in every raid. But now they've made it so that the 3rd tank is never needed, so a guy lost his spot. But tank never learned to dps even though he has no excuse not to with dual spec, so a guy lost his spot.


fixed that for you

I didn't say he lost his spot because he couldn't dps. My tanks are quite capable of doing dps and they're all required to know his OS. As the third tank, he would have been dps quite often. However, we are tanks not dps; we raid to tank. When the situation changes so that you can never tank, you start looking for other guilds to join.

You might be happy with a raid situation where all roles are removed and everyone becomes DPS, but I certainly am not. I am a tank, I tank things.

[LegitNapkins]

I believe what it comes down to now, is you have to have a Main-tank, who ALWAYS tanks. Then, you have an off-tank. He takes offspec pieces, but is generally ~evenly geared for the content. But he is mainly a dps. It's just something that's been changed. The phrases "MT" and "OT" really mean something now.

I am a protection paladin, and my OT is a protection warrior who mainly dpses.

[Deleted]

Aight, I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm in a 25 man guild and my experience from 10 man is our alt run. I can understand how 10 man roster is harder to balance. That was my point in the previous post, 10 man is all about flexibility and attendance in my eyes. If you have people with only 1 spec good enough for progression or low attendance, then you are being forced to have a bigger roster. That would result in having to do heavy rotation and adjustments all the time, regardless of the fight design.

Also, the ONLY fight in FL that was designed for 1 tank is domo. People prefer 1 tanking rhyo and baleroc cos it's easier to meet the dps requirements that way (in that alt run i mentioned, we use 2 tanks for both and still manage). But even if you count these, it's 3/7. Yea that's defo more than half. Please don't mention Alys, there is absolutely no dps check there forcing you use 1 tank.

The problem about gearing the tanks OS is the RNG involved in loot. Can't really do the same amount of dps as the the core dps do, when we don't have the gear. And the core dps would always have prio over the tanks OS.

So yeah, 10 man is indeed about balancing your roster but it's affected by the RNG of the loot drops. We have yet to see a 2H weapon from Shannox HM or Rag, that's after clearing HM's for months now. Obviously something as important as a weapon has a huge impact on your dps, that's just one example on how loot is a big factor in gearing your tanks OS.

[Agallochh]

The problem about gearing the tanks OS is the RNG involved in loot. Can't really do the same amount of dps as the the core dps do, when we don't have the gear. And the core dps would always have prio over the tanks OS.

So yeah, 10 man is indeed about balancing your roster but it's affected by the RNG of the loot drops. We have yet to see a 2H weapon from Shannox HM or Rag, that's after clearing HM's for months now. Obviously something as important as a weapon has a huge impact on your dps, that's just one example on how loot is a big factor in gearing your tanks OS.

Ugh tell me about it. I've been trying to go TG on my warrior (MS Tank, OS Fury). One of our Alysrazor kills grants us a Zoid's, and the ret pally needed it, so I didn't even get to roll.. Next week we do Shannox and H:Skullstealer Greataxe drops.... once again goes to the ret paladin. So now he has d/e'd his Zoids and I am still stuck with SMF Obsidium Cleaver combo >.>

[Braindwen]

I am the MT, but I'm the tank who goes DPS for the one-tank fights (other tank is a bear so can do like 15k DPS as a tank, while I barely do like 9.5k). That's why I'm concerned.

Not trying to pick on you, as it's already been talked about, but a druid tank is exceptional in that Bear gear=Cat gear for the most part. There's no gearing up a dps offspec when the gear is the same, so druids are handy to save you the raid spot. True, bears reforge and gem differently from cats, but there's a few workarounds, including the worst case scenario of reforging between progression bosses. If you can figure out your prot dps, and have the druid as the OT, you won't have as many gear issues.
(on a side note, bears aren't really ahead in terms of straight tanking, just when we're allowed to shift to cat do we pull ridiculously ahead. One advantage we do have is that the hit/exp. caps don't gimp our survival as much).

Getting back to the topic, my co-tank's offspec is 0/0/0. Who do you think dps's the one-tank fights? I like mixing it up every now and then, but I can understand the frustration around not tanking some/most fights. Running FL on my alts gives me a chance to do the things I never do on my druid: Tank rhyolith (fun!), MT bale (giant fun!), tank Domo (ok, that's boring), go upstairs on beth, MT shannox, and so on. Never being able to do these things would be disappointing. Often times what I want to do is to just tank the boss, but why have me tanking when the other tank has no offset to use? And why gear his OS when there's no reason to ever use it?

[Malakynn]

I think it becomes an issue if single tank fights are more than 25-30% of the bosses in a raid, but I like having to dps once and awhile, keeps it fresh.

[Derkenne]

I didn't say he lost his spot because he couldn't dps. My tanks are quite capable of doing dps and they're all required to know his OS. As the third tank, he would have been dps quite often. However, we are tanks not dps; we raid to tank. When the situation changes so that you can never tank, you start looking for other guilds to join.

You might be happy with a raid situation where all roles are removed and everyone becomes DPS, but I certainly am not. I am a tank, I tank things.

This here is Guild Wars 2, they don't have roles everyone attacks the boss, everyone uses their own Defensive cooldowns and everyone uses self heals...their reason behind this is to eliminate the long queues if you aren't a tank or healer.

[SilkforCalde]

The biggest problem that I see is that it kinda forces 10m to rotate people, which means you have hurt feelings and stunted progression on the individual level. Hurt feelings because you might have to sit a longtime raider because their OS isn't as good as somebody else's MS or just because of comp purposes (e.g. the fact very few fights are friendly to melee but favor ranged). Stunted progress because, let's face it, as I've said many times in the past personal progression is what matters at the end of the day, not guild progress. You can be in a 7/7H guild but if you personally don't have HM kills, good luck being taken seriously or getting into a better guild. Being rotated in and out of a fight means it takes longer for you to get that kill, longer for you to get that loot, and therefore longer for you to progress, and if you are repeatedly sat it hurts you even more because if/when you look at another guild, you're less likely to get in because you don't have that kill, but you don't have that kill because the fight was designed so that you weren't needed, and therefore you were rotated out constantly.

In Firelands, the fights are more melee favored than ranged favored. Majordomo in particular is MUCH easier with more melee than ranged.

---------- Post added 2011-11-07 at 10:40 PM ----------

You sure know how Feral Druids work........ Won't even bother with you, you haven't changed a bit. And while having 3 tanks might seem like a bad idea for you, it doesn't really mean that other people look at it that way.

Anyways, when you're done picking on the dude doing "too low dmg" in your opinion, why don't you stay on topic instead......

I have a feral druid. I understand the spec very well. And having 3 tanks in a 10 man is a horrible idea no matter the situation.

---------- Post added 2011-11-07 at 10:41 PM ----------

The tanks that claim to be pulling 17k+ on single target boss fights are undoubtedly reforging/gearing towards hit/expertise or using dps trinkets etc. Which is fine on farm encounters. But I definitely wouldn't want to be healing a tank on a progression fight that is more concerned about their dps than survivability. The only exception to this is when you are on a dps sensitive fight that requires max dps to beat timers (p3 rag...prenerf baleroc, etc)

Nope, I reforge and gem to be unhittable. If I was reforging and gemming for hit / expertise then I would be pushing 21-23k dps at least while tanking. Not 17k.

---------- Post added 2011-11-07 at 10:45 PM ----------

Really? And how do you do that? I'm doing everything right that I can tell - Shield Block on cooldown, SB whenever S&B procs and it's off cooldown (+2pc bonus) HS when rage allows, Inner Rage when I can, Devastate spam for S&B, I even try to keep Rend up. I'd like to see some logs of a normal boss fight where you do 17k as a Prot Warrior while tanking the boss (i.e. no shit like Rhyolith adds or some weird HM Domo strat with maxing Concentration).

Sorry for the OT derailment, but I'm always looking for ways to improve.

Ok some things. First, I macroed Inner Rage to Heroic Strike. Heroic Strike is my #1 damaging ability in most fights or a very close second to Devastate. Second, Shockwave and Concussion Blow both do more damage than Devastate, so I use them when Revenge and Shield Slam are down, unless I have Shield Block up and then I fish for S&B procs. Third, don't keep up Rend. Waste of GCD, waste of GCDs using Thunderclap when it's already on the boss. Don't use Rend at all unless you are dealing with adds. And finally, make sure you use Retalation and Recklessness when you can. I also, like most prot warriors these days, use the mastery with strength on use trinket from Avengers of Hyjal rep. I macroed that trinket to my heroic strike.

[Deleted]

Then you must be a piss poor Feral Druid, if you don't know that Agility contributes to our dmg output. This reminds me of when you claimed that Warriors have no AoE taunt lol. Why don't you just link us your epic logs, cause I'm sure you must be ranked with that imba dps as a tank.

Regarding the number of tanks, that decision will ALWAYS be based on how your guild works. I don't even wanna discuss this any further, you clearly don't even read half the posts, you just blah blah blah as usual.

[arden714]

Or the 2nd tank can go dps, I know it's an extreme suggestion but I'm pretty sure it works. People being this stubborn and whiny is fucking annoying.

I'd say that 99% of most raiding guilds do this option. Even the top world guilds probably have thier tanks go to a dps/healer spec for varying fight circumstances. In my guild I'm the designated tank that switches. I pull just as good dps as the other full time DPS classes and I spend as much time perfecting my offspec and its gear as my mainspec. Keeps raiding fun for me and I'd imagine the whole "tank swaps and adds galore" gets pretty boring for the developers.

[Deleted]

Morchok requires 2 tanks on both Normal and Heroic.
Yor'sahj only requires 1 tank on both Normal and Heroic.
Zon'ozz only requires 1 tank on Normal, no data on Heroic yet but it's safe to assume the worst.
Hagara requires only 1 tank on both Normal and Heroic.
Ultraxion requires 2 tanks on both Normal and Heroic.
The gunship requires 2 tanks on both Normal and Heroic.
Spine of Deathwing requires only 1 tank on Normal, not sure about Heroic but we can assume the worst again.
Madness of Deathwing requires only 1 tank on Normal, yet again we can assume the worst for Heroic.

So, since this was the starting point of the discussion, now that more combats have been tested in heroic mode... How much of this holds true? At least Zon'ozz have been mentioned to need two tanks in heroic due to a stacking debuff, so that leave it at 4/6 two tanks fights (2 fights unknown) in heroic. Anyone knows about Spine and Madness? Because if it ends being 6/8 2 tanks fight in heroic, I don't see the point anymore on the discussion.

[suicuique]

Yor'sahj obviously requires 2 tanks because of a dot application in HC mode. But I haven't seen this HC mode myself.
Zon'ozz requires 2 tanks because of the 2 large tentacles in heroic mode. At least it was this way when we tried the (overtuned) HC mode last week.

[KaPe]

Yor'sahj dot was going up to 7 stacks (except for initial pull, where you'll get 3), which is 350k/tick, far too much for a single tank.

[Deleted]

Just make sure your DK or Druid tank have a dps/heal offspec. (I say dk and druid because pala, warriors' block and raid cooldowns are superior in 4.3 they are just the better tanks) the DK and druid can just do a different role problem solved.

[Deleted]

Thanks, so updating...

Morchok requires 2 tanks on Heroic.
Yor'sahj requires 2 tanks on Heroic.
Zon'ozz requires 2 tanks on Heroic.
Hagara requires only 1 tank on Heroic.
Ultraxion requires 2 tanks on Heroic.
The gunship requires 2 tanks on Heroic.
Spine of Deathwing requires only 1 tank on Normal, not sure about Heroic
Madness of Deathwing requires only 1 tank on Normal, not sure about Heroic

5/6 two tanks fight in heroic, with Spine and Madness being unconfirmed?

[Wilderness]

Nope, I reforge and gem to be unhittable. If I was reforging and gemming for hit / expertise then I would be pushing 21-23k dps at least while tanking. Not 17k.

So just a little reforging/regemming and you'd be in the top 25 or better for any FL fight outside of Alysrazor for heroic 10s and 25s? Right. Care to back up those claims with anything at all?