shred (glyph of shred) 4.3

[Deleted]

I'm going to answer to this fellow because he fails to understand this game is not punishing us- Let me elaborate, parried/dodged attack on a feral druid, you get 90% of the energy back and you get to do the attack you tried to do over and over, consider warriors- Dodged/parried collosus smash all of their attacks in the next 6sec are doing 100% less damage(half) assuming no dodge/parry it's about the same as our loss with no shred, then consider a dodge/parry on any of the warriors attacks, forced to use overpower which is about the same coefficient of damage of shred vs. mangle. WE ARE NOT ALONE DEAL WITH IT.

that is not a special efect of feral after cata realise every melee class get back his energy rage runes etc when they parry or dodge and as duilliath said we speak for next patch

[Braindwen]

I might have taken him seriously... if he knew what he was talking about.

1. Ferals get 80% energy refunded, not 90%
2. CS is about 40-50% damage increase over its duration, not 100%
3. Overpower is part of an arms warrior's rotation ANYWAY, and it's unparryable. It also only activates on dodges, not parries.
4. Other specs, such as UH dks, value expertise even less than us, as they receive 100% rune returns instead of 80%. Other melee, like UH or Enh, rely heavily on spells that can't be parried.

Sure, we're one of the lowest in terms of valuing expertise, but to say other classes are hurt so much more than us by parries is a bit of a stretch.

Enhance, Fury, Frost, Ret (I think), and Combat all cap expertise as a requirement in gearing. Notice none of these classes have positional requirements, so parrying being more important for them is understandable. Arms probably should, but OP devalues it to the point where crit is better. Sub and mutilate can consider expertise capping to ease their rotation, but it's not a necessity and other stats are better. Feral can cap it as well with minimal dps loss to make things easier (and, looking at the 4t12 stat rank, it's at the top!). Unholy... expertise is their worst stat (especially with the ghoul fix next patch) so saying unholy is hurt heavily is laughable. If I missed a melee class, I'm sorry .

Why is expertise value important? well it tells you how much parries would hurt us by telling you how much dodges already hurt us, since those two function just about identically. The only class this is probably wrong for is arms, as OP activating on dodges is one reason exp. is so low. Switching to parries probably puts exp. over crit.

Also, sidenote: hunters lose damage from blocked attacks when attacking the front. Poor hunters. Just makes casters more OP.

[Wolfdragon]

Well I might've blown it out the water, but it isn't far from the truth that we are one of the classes least penalised by dodge/parry, a Ret who gets his Crusader strike dodged or parried has it go on a 6sec cooldown, same goes for warriors with hardhitting attacks(but arms has overpower which when compared to MS is very close to the difference between shred and mangle in terms of damage) the fact that there are classes that rely on spells that can't be dodged or parried is ok, but it doesn't change the fact that some melee(most) are at a worse spot than us.

[Deleted]

Well I might've blown it out the water, but it isn't far from the truth that we are one of the classes least penalised by dodge/parry, a Ret who gets his Crusader strike dodged or parried has it go on a 6sec cooldown, same goes for warriors with hardhitting attacks(but arms has overpower which when compared to MS is very close to the difference between shred and mangle in terms of damage) the fact that there are classes that rely on spells that can't be dodged or parried is ok, but it doesn't change the fact that some melee(most) are at a worse spot than us.

no its far from truth 1st of all cause parry and dodge afect the druid less more i dont care it is i want you to name me 1 class that cant use an ability in a raid boss exept the feral was yesterday on ptr Ultraxion while in every boss my dps was 35k and more aon that fight my dps drop to 25k while the 1st in my guild was at 42 a rogue now tell how the hell this is right

[Duilliath]

i want you to name me 1 class that cant use an ability in a raid boss exept the feral

Rogue.

Going to ignore the rest, other than to advise you to kindly put a bit more effort into your posting. It's incredibly hard to figure out what you're saying and with the current tone of your posting, I won't bother. I'm quite sure others will feel the same way.

[dakalro]

Even with 360% back, two words, INFINITE RAGE ... better gear up your warrior alts.

[Deleted]

Rogue.

Going to ignore the rest, other than to advise you to kindly put a bit more effort into your posting. It's incredibly hard to figure out what you're saying and with the current tone of your posting, I won't bother. I'm quite sure others will feel the same way.

lets go again
Yesterrday i was on ptr testing the boss Ultraxion while my dps in every fight till that boss was 35 k dps or more on that boss my dps drop to 25k at the same time i checked the 1st dps on the raid and it was a rogue at 40k dps 2nd a paladin with 39 and the a dk i was something like the end
and im asking again where is the logical and how on earth they have fix the shread problem droping me 10 k dps down at least when all the other melees on that boss is geting boosted how that makes sence

and at the same time having ppl on forums that have no clue what they talking about and try to convinse me that its not big dial + the fact that its not on 1 boss that we dial that problem but 2 and the 2nd is the most important one the last

[Duilliath]

I appreciate your effort. That did make your post a bit easier to understand. A bit of punctuation to be able tell apart sentences and I'm pretty darn content.

As to your post, unfortunately, all I can say is 'anecdote is not the singular form of data'. We don't know enough to be able to comment on that situation. We don't know your gear, nor the rogue's, nor the other melees. We do not know your skill level, nor that of the others. You could've had a string of bad luck (e.g. lack of crits, crits that do occur happening when you're on 4 CP, leading to 'wasted' CPs, trinket timer and TF timer being off for Berserk). It's the same reason people disregard dummy tests, there's just nothing there of statistical value. Additionally, that rogue (for example) might well have suffered too in their rotation which wouldn't explain why you dropped but he didn't.

[Deleted]

you dont need to know my gear my skill lvl nothing i just told you in all the fights till Ultraxion was from 35k dps or more when we went on Ultraxion my dps drop to 25k dps that is 10k lower calulate the fact also that on this fight you basicly dont do anything exept press 1 more batton the teleport ability makes me think that its more than 10k dps

anyway i stop posting for this sabject cause obviously dosnt lead anywhere when all the ppl + those that claim i say anecdotes go on the boss and see the diference will see who is the anecdote

ps: need skills to change your shread with mangle also i love the way that you try to explain everything when there is a simple way to do it
go to the training dammy as you sayd do a rotasion on 5 or 6 million dmg with shread and 1 more with mangle on ptr so you will have your new imba glyph and come and tell me that im telling anecdotes

[axxey]

It's more like proving you're either exagerating or terrible if you're dropping from 35k to 25k just from switching to mangle.

[Deleted]

It's more like proving you're either exagerating or terrible if you're dropping from 35k to 25k just from switching to mangle.

i will toataly agree with you if you explaine me how from using skill x to skill a will change my perfomanse

[Tanker]

I see no even single reason why should some classes have penalty on some bosses blizzard wanted to make boss huge to look more epic.
Especially when the bosses that you can't shred for some strange coincidence are top bosses of current content.

Let me remind you that tanks attack from the front, carry little to no expertise, and any boss with a 360 backside would greatly effect tank dps, threat, etc. There, you now have 1 reason.

[Duilliath]

Let me remind you that tanks attack from the front, carry little to no expertise, and any boss with a 360 backside would greatly effect tank dps, threat, etc. There, you now have 1 reason.

Again, Ultraxion does not parry.

[Braindwen]

i will toataly agree with you if you explaine me how from using skill x to skill a will change my perfomanse

Zon'ozz takes bonus damage. Hagara I dunno (though I kind of doubt this was the fight you did 35k on), Yor'sahj has some AoE, Morchok I dunno. Regardless, dropping from 35k to 25k is more akin to completely dropping ALL shred damage, while Mangle is at least covering most of the lost damage. It should really be ~32-33k with mangle if you did 35k with shred.

[Wolfdragon]

/agree with Braindwen, however since you think that it's mangle and mangle alone, I guess it's down to you, not us.

[Deleted]

fine fine will lol when i will see your names on forums to cry for that boss when you finaly be able to see it you got 100% right with the new glyph if you cant shread the gap betwin shread and mangle is to small

[Braindwen]

What? I'm a tank btw, it doesn't even really affect me, hell it probably makes me more balanced with the other tanks that I can't shred. Although I really can't figure out what you're trying to say... We'll cry because we were right and the difference wasn't that big? It's obvious it's not a 10k difference, you'd have to completely remove all of shred's damage to get that high of a loss, as if mangle hit for 0 damage and just built CPs.

I'm not even saying that a 2-3k dps loss due to some stupid arbitrary mechanic on the patchwerk boss of this tier is acceptable, because it isn't. It's even more stupid when you realize that he was shreddable for a while, and they removed that without giving a reason why. It should be changed because it's going to get ferals benched in high-end progression, and it's going to make ferals in all difficulties and raid skill levels annoyed because they're forced to use an ability that hits for piddly amounts compared to shred for no other reason than "Blizz made it that way". It's terrible and boring design that's easily fixable and punishes 3 specs for no reason.
Since this apparently isn't clear, I agree it's a problem, but exaggerating that problem doesn't help anything.

[Deleted]

ok my mistake that i didnt took pictures nex reset will give you a full analise of every fight and then tell me that its not posible have fan till then

[MasterNewbie]

ok my mistake that i didnt took pictures nex reset will give you a full analise of every fight and then tell me that its not posible have fan till then

The dps difference between mangling and shredding, pre 4.3 was determined to be 10% (i.e. no more than 4k dps). If you're losing 10k dps (more than 35% of dps) by mangling instead of shredding, that leads me to believe there is more a flaw in your adaptation of the rotation than there is in the mechanics of feral druids.

I was reading the new Blizz blog post about damage dealing (Ask the Devs#10) and came across this post:

We have also made the alternatives to the positional requirements much less of a DPS loss than they used to be. If you go into your Mangle rotation instead of your Shred rotation, your DPS will drop, but not catastrophically.

I realized that it is very easy to test that - just a few lines of code in the script and it is now possible to replace Shreds with Mangles (including not trying to extend Rip with Shred).

So, I added a new configurable option to my script (which I also updated to include the latest version of the default script). You can use the "mangle" option with the other options - so, for example, you could test the default script in atramedes mode only being able to mangle.

// Usage: In the "Custom Strategy Arguments:" box enter the following
//  [                   ] default script (empty)
//  [atramedes          ] default script, atramedes fight
//  [leaf               ] my script
//  [leaf atramedes     ] my script, atramedes fight
//  [exp                ] experimental script (same as leaf currently)
//  [exp atramedes      ] experimental script, atramedes fight (same as leaf atramedes currently)
//  [mangle             ] goes to a mangle only rotation - can be used with any of the other parameters - it works will all scripts

So...only being able to Mangle is about a 10% dps loss.

---------- Post added 2011-11-15 at 12:06 AM ----------

To build on to my earlier post.

DPS of a druid attacking from behind: 34050.
DPS of a druid attacking from front (ignoring parry): 31278. (Drop of 8.1%)
DPS of a druid attacking from front (including parries): 29365. (Drop of 11.5%)

Since Ultraxxion does not parry supposedly, you are losing more than 3x the amount you theoretically should be losing. And yet you feel that the problem is with the feral combat mechanics and not your playing of them?

[Deleted]

erm can you please diside cause blizzard acually said that is 5% you are saying now that is 10% i say that is something like 20% plz diside
but i will ask again lets say that i am bad and changing shread with mangle is complicate for me (just look what you say)
and the dps lose its 4k dps WHY ON EARTH I WILL LOSE 4 K DPS WHY