Lets be Honest about 10 Mans [Real Discussion Only]

[Deleted]

In Wotlk 10 man was one of those things you would do with friends , alts, after raid etc. Now on cata a major shift has happened, just adding some numbers of 2 random guilds with 7/7 HC on similar level:

10-man rank 400 out of 38,497 guilds
25-man rank 295 out of 2,672 guilds

So the question is why people still refer to 25man as being the top league when there is 2500 guilds left WorldWide(yes 25 man facing extinction soon). The main reason is probably cause previous two tiers world firsts have been 25 man, which pretty much was impossible to get as a 10 man guild( hi sinestra, hi rag without full 391 gear and perfect comp). But times are changing , i hope we see a world first 10man Deathwing but for all the reasons we know, i dont think that will happen.

For me the main difference between 25man vs 10man is pure organizational,ofc its harder to get 25 skilled players and lead 25 players than it its on 10man.

I raided in both formats, but in 10 man you get that team feeling that i never felt in 25man. So for all the players that get bashed by 25 man raiders, just show them the numbers. In 10 man bracket you are competing against 40.000 Guilds, 25man is a 2500 guild competition. And believe me sooner or later the bracket with "most popularity" will take over.

[Jibjabb]

as long as Paragon and Method raid 25m the world 1st kills will be 25m. It isnt really a factor of which size its harder, they are just that good that they will be 1st. Unless Blizz really screws the pooch and completely ruins the tuning

[Asics]

Raided both 10 and 25 as progression, from my personal experience (13/13H T11 pre-nerf, 6/7H T12) 10 man's are easier in most encounters. It varied from encounter to encounter but based on numbers (DPS, HPS, enrage timers, etc.) 10 man was much more lenient.

[Peyj]

edit: Honestly, these threads are pointless. Nobody will ever agree.

[Ceria]

I cant believe people here are actually arguing the point of difficulty. Im going to assume many of you have never raided 25m Firelands. Right now it is laughable to assume any fight is harder in 10m with the possible exception of Bethtilac. Ive raided both sizes and its really not even close.

10m has less tank and raid damage going out. Less people to worry about keeping alive. More space to move around and less problems to avoid. Is tuned for normal compositions so any 10m raid that does stack will have a huge advantage. Less coordination required. Easier to find 10 good players than it is to find 25. etc etc I dont really want to ramble on more

I think its mostly apparent on Ragnaros. Many 25m guilds felt the need to do a week of 10m to get a easy kill since 25m is so much harder. Phase 4 in 10 is so much easier to handle, there is practically no chance of getting a geyser unless you are awful. It only requires 1 scrubber which is so much easier than having 3 have to work together. Even in transitions Sons of Flames can easily be solo'd making it very easy on assigning who gets what. I have nothing against 10ms. If thats what you want to do then go ahead. Like I said do both. Its just rediculous to constantly see people denying that its easier like its attacking their since of pride as a raider or something. Last tier Sinestra was harder on 10m, that was also a fact. I dont think 25m raiders cared that it was easier or were too ashamed to admit it, I dont understand why many raiders on 10m feel differently

It's funny how World Firsts are always on 25man guilds though isn't it? The people racing for World First doing whatever min-maxing they possibly can won't risk raiding on 10man because it's so much less forgiving than 25man.

Sure there might be a fight or two that's easier on 10 but then you have fights like Baleroc, Ryolith, Alysrazor that're absolute jokes on 25man.

Also: I like how all the elite 25man raiders come out to make fun of 10man raiders now. Where were you all in t11 where the fights were hillariously undertuned on 25man?


And just cause no-one bothered to say anything.

I am not going to take a side on this debate but I stopped reading right when you made your baleroc comparison. You cannot argue a side by comparing fight mechanics and then ignoring half of such mechanics that don't favor your argument.

Yes 25 players have less room to utilize. But you are forgetting other aspects of the fight. Countdown only links 8% of your raid instead of 20% of your raid. The odds of the soaker rotation getting screwed up in 25 man are much smaller than in 10. Your odds of a healer getting torment likewise are also smaller. You also can afford a multitude of backups in 25. You also have healers doing overlapping roles, so that one misclick or bad rng will not kill a tank/dps. Healers who have had their stacks drop right as they need to drop a heal during decimation can relate to this, but this problem does not (or rarely) happen in 25. 2 healing 10 man pre-nerf (and pre-geared) was a 6 minute pure execution fight for healers where if either healer misclicked a spell or made a mistake on what they should be doing - you wiped. Healing this fight in 25 is much less stressful (yes I have done it) because you have people backing you up on your role, you will rarely get torment, and do not have to be a backup soaker in the case that all of the dps get tormented (this happens in 10 man if you use a 3 player rotation, which is generally the strongest strategy).

And before anyone tries to chime in about 3 healing 10-man, pre nerf this was not possible unless you either 1) brought the perfect raid composition and were not missing crucial buffs or 2) were fully geared in tier11 heroic gear. If your strictly 10-man, you probably don't have the option of 1, and 2 depends entirely on your progression last tier. If you walked in with ~365 on the second week of FL, you were not going to 3-heal it.

Quoting this because it's true and everyone ignored it.

[Deleted]

as long as Paragon and Method raid 25m the world 1st kills will be 25m. It isnt really a factor of which size its harder, they are just that good that they will be 1st. Unless Blizz really screws the pooch and completely ruins the tuning

So you saying that they are super humans that bash skillwise all players in 10 man guilds?

[GUESSWHOIAM]

My guild had to do 10 man raiding at the start of Cataclysm after some months because of massive gquits and our GM didn't want to continue anymore.

After a while, with that 10 man raiding guild, we cleared the T11 content and proceed to clear all heroic encounters in Firelands (T12). Not that long ago, we found out that we could try to raid in 25 man again (more loots!), we had massive applys and what happend? First week of raiding in 25m, 7/7hc cleared.
Yep. That's it. What's the only problem in 25m raids? Having 15 more players that aren't stupid fucks playing with their feets.

Now I'll come back on some points, T11 content was actually harder (healer PoV) because of mana issues, now it's really free and it's not that hard anymore to overheal at some point. T11 content had also much harder fights (for the 10m raids) like Magmaw or Omnotron. Seriously, they were FUCKED UP when we went from 25 to 10m raids, HEALING WISE. It was fucking hard to manage our mana and keep everybody alive and stuff. Sinestra was buggy also, with the Wreck spreading on tanks, it was awful. Also, notice that in 10m, when shadow orbs were spawning, it takes 10% of the raid instead of 8% in 25m (simple maths here) and worst situation was when both of your heals were kiting the orbs.

Anyway, you can't compare fights because of their challenges (avoiding zones, kicks, etc), the difficulty isn't increasing if you are passing from 10m to 25m, it will still be the same. You just have to be sure that you have all your people playing and doing their job, but that's not what I call challenge.

Btw, I had much more fun when we were raiding in 10m, 25 is so boring, no funny jokes on ts anymore etc ...

I tried to be the most constructive possible.

Edit!:

I saw somewhere above:

I raided in both formats, but in 10 man you get that team feeling that i never felt in 25man.

That's totally true, but I guess it's because I'm coming from an FPS scene where it was smaller teams that had to work hard to get teamplay (5v5/6v6 format, or even 3v3)

[Peyj]

What 25 man raiders conveniently ignore is that their experiences with 10 man are usually biased. My guild switched to 10s on a fight we couldn't kill on 25s last expansion, and yeah, it was easier. Why? Because they handpicked ten players who were performing the best in the encounter on 25s. It had absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight itself, we just sat down and picked out the ten players who weren't the ones causing the wipes and/or standing in the bad.

Anyway, this thread has been pointless from the start, the very first post was nothing but special-snowflake-I-raid-25s-garbage.

[Deleted]

It's funny how World Firsts are always on 25man guilds though isn't it? The people racing for World First doing whatever min-maxing they possibly can won't risk raiding on 10man because it's so much less forgiving than 25man.

Sure there might be a fight or two that's easier on 10 but then you have fights like Baleroc, Ryolith, Alysrazor that're absolute jokes on 25man.

It is funny how you still have the nerve to imply that 25s are easier using rediculous arguments.
Paragon Method and other guilds of that caliber, will go for 25 kills because they will get bashed by the other 25 guilds (the ones that have an opinion that matters to them) for swapping to 10 in order to get an easier world first.
And since you mentioned it, this tier Paragon waisted one reset to prove how easier the same encounters were in 10. They still managed to kill Ragnaros in heroic 10 only a week after their first 25 kill, and with gear at best equal (if no worse) that the first 10 people guild that killed Ragnaros few resets after.

So, keep trying to twist things the way they suit you 10 man blind lovers.
You will get your world first.
Blizzard decided that 25s should die and tier 13 will be even more undertuned for 10s than tier 12 was.

[Jibjabb]

So you saying that they are super humans that bash skillwise all players in 10 man guilds?

Yes? Theres a reason they are always 1st and usually by a good margin. They raid 25m because they are a 25m guild and have been, not because they find it easier. After they down 25 they decided to do 10 to see the difference and well ya, you can go see their opinions on it if you really want it. They were the world 1st in both 25 and 10. So they beat everybody to it regardless of the raid size. Im not a fan boy of theirs, but I acknowledge how much better they are than practically every other guild out there. So thats why the world 1st kills are 25, followed by them getting world 1st 10 the next week.

[alucardtnuoc]

i hear on bale if people stack up it's an instant wipe..... /sarcasm

You have 3 spots needed to be stood on, 1 is melee, EVERY melee can be on this one point, until they go off to do their job of soaking, then they can find a free spot, same with range stacking on one point, blizzard made it easy with having those raid markers hover around.... so space should never be an issue

(healed both 10 and 25 heroic bale)

[Peyj]

That's it. What's the only problem in 25m raids? Having 15 more players that aren't stupid fucks

<<snip>>

the difficulty isn't increasing if you are passing from 10m to 25m, it will still be the same. You just have to be sure that you have all your people playing and doing their job, but that's not what I call challenge.

Yeah, that's the tricky thing, finding an extra 15 players.

I always found 25s relaxing compared to 10s. So much more room for personal error and so many other players to back you up.

[ralphie]

15 more chances to get stoopid in raid.

[ambident]

My guild had to do 10 man raiding at the start of Cataclysm after some months because of massive gquits and our GM didn't want to continue anymore.

After a while, with that 10 man raiding guild, we cleared the T11 content and proceed to clear all heroic encounters in Firelands (T12). Not that long ago, we found out that we could try to raid in 25 man again (more loots!), we had massive applys and what happend? First week of raiding in 25m, 7/7hc cleared.
Yep. That's it. What's the only problem in 25m raids? Having 15 more players that aren't stupid fucks playing with their feets.

can you tell us what guild you are from?

from someone that clears 7/7h 25 weekly and sometimes 6/7H in 10m for alts/fun i find this really hard to believe.

[Deleted]

So they beat everybody to it regardless of the raid size. Im not a fan boy of theirs, but I acknowledge how much better they are than practically every other guild out there. So thats why the world 1st kills are 25, followed by them getting world 1st 10 the next week.

And since you mentioned it, this tier Paragon waisted one reset to prove how easier the same encounters were in 10. They still managed to kill Ragnaros in heroic 10 only a week after their first 25 kill, and with gear at best equal (if no worse) that the first 10 people guild that killed Ragnaros few resets after.

You guys realized that Paragon handpicked 10 guys out of 40 man rooster with gear way superior than 10 man guilds had (YES IN 10 MAN WE HAVE RNG LOOT). All serious 10 man guilds have a rooster of 13 players max and they cant afford to bring 2 boomkins or 2 dks or a perfect setup for a specific fight like all 25man guilds did.

Anyway cant argue against "paragon fanboys"

That's totally true, but I guess it's because I'm coming from an FPS scene where it was smaller teams that had to work hard to get teamplay (5v5/6v6 format, or even 3v3)

I bet you played Enemy Territory!

[Peyj]

Honestly, this entire topic needs to be put to rest for good.

Why does everyone have so much difficulty agreeing that there will be some more difficult on 25s, some more difficult on 10s, some equal? Really, what does it matter?
Unless you're in a world first guild, nobody here is going to be impressed by what raids you clear and of what size, anyway.

[ambident]

It is funny how you still have the nerve to imply that 25s are easier using rediculous arguments.
Paragon Method and other guilds of that caliber, will go for 25 kills because they will get bashed by the other 25 guilds (the ones that have an opinion that matters to them) for swapping to 10 in order to get an easier world first.
And since you mentioned it, this tier Paragon waisted one reset to prove how easier the same encounters were in 10. They still managed to kill Ragnaros in heroic 10 only a week after their first 25 kill, and with gear at best equal (if no worse) that the first 10 people guild that killed Ragnaros few resets after.

So, keep trying to twist things the way they suit you 10 man blind lovers.
You will get your world first.
Blizzard decided that 25s should die and tier 13 will be even more undertuned for 10s than tier 12 was.

it doesn't take paragon to point out that 10 mans are easier, ask the people in top 25m guilds how difficult it is for each of their alts to complete (at least) 6/7H in 10 man every week.

who cares though?
if blizzard continues to undertune 10m then _everybody_ will switch, then we can all compete against each other and talk about how great 10m raiding is, happiness will ensue.

[Deleted]

as long as Paragon and Method raid 25m the world 1st kills will be 25m. It isnt really a factor of which size its harder, they are just that good that they will be 1st. Unless Blizz really screws the pooch and completely ruins the tuning

You should take a look at time spent by our dear top guilds. Its impossible to measure skill, but taking time spent on each encounter in the equation sure as hell helps.

While I wont add anything that contributes much to a discussion. The fact is Ive done 6/7 HC 25man prenerfs apart from Baleroc, which ofc turned into a joke after it, and 7/7 HC 10man (After initial raggy hp nerf) I can without a doubt say I found 10man more difficult for myself as a DPS. In 25man you can always afford having stuff like a 5k DPS Elemental offspec on Rhyolith just to knock adds, try anything like that in 10man heroics and you will fail. In so many fights 25man have the luxury of making things easier for them through a player that does some specific job and completely ignoring DPS/Healing. This never works in 10man.
I hated playing with so many people who never got ranks, without having any job at all apart from DPS, or got close to them and still managed to down encounters just by staying alive and never having to play close to perfection.

[Kromtar]

Assuming all members of a 25 are as skilled as all 10 members of a 10, the 25 will be easier due to more relaxed requirements, the issue is more that finding 25 people to perform on the level required for 10 man is pretty hard to do.

[Deleted]

I'm raiding both 10 and 25 on 2 different chars atm, with 6/7 on hc in both, rag almost down in our 10 man group.

I find 10 man to be a million times easier both during progression and on farm. However, loot distribution in 10 mans are so fucking bad it's almost not even worth running them.