"cata pvp wont be like wotlk"

[Deleted]

I can and will deny that. Kind of annoys me now that when anyone says anything good about WoWs past its instantly "WOW WAS SHIT BACK THEN, ROSE TINTED NOSTALGIA NOOB". Wrath wasnt long ago, it was a year ago i loved pvping and enjoyed WoW to the maximum.

With no nostalgia 100% i can definitely confirm that i preferred Wrath pvp to Cata pvp. Hey, everyones opinion differs, just sayin.

I wasn't referring to the fun, I was referring to the balance. I didn't play through wrath but I really doubt your statement - the classes were balanced. Given how hard that is to do, it just doesn't seem likely. Ret, wasn't that terrible? Feral? I'm sure some classes and playstyles were just bad to play.

[Deleted]

Wotlk was FAR worse.. I could get killed in like 1-2 seconds on my full elite pvp gear on my moonkin, now i just cant survive for shit.. barkskin and gg.. reason that moonkin was so viable in wotlk was because of the low health pools

not sure if srs

[TJ]

I wasn't referring to the fun, I was referring to the balance. I didn't play through wrath but I really doubt your statement - the classes were balanced. Given how hard that is to do, it just doesn't seem likely. Ret, wasn't that terrible? Feral? I'm sure some classes and playstyles were just bad to play.

Well you said it yourself "i didnt play through wrath", keep in my mind it wasnt perfect (but what is?), it was a hell of a lot better today yes. Every class had a viable spec for pvp (some even had 2), frost mages didnt dominate everyone, arena was more skill and timing rather than class setup etc etc. It was much better than today. My mate who got arena master in wrath (almost glad) and another mate who pvped just for fun like me also agree that it was much better, its not fun anymore its so stupidly unbalanced.

Regarding specs and viability in Wrath
Death Knight: Unholy
Warrior: Arms and prot (you could actually do well with prot with the right setup)
Paladin: Holy and Ret (not going to include prot, but again you could actually play it with the right setup)
Hunter: BM, MM and Surv were all viable (survival was worse than the others and generally not regarded as a pvp spec, but you could still play it)
Rogue: Mutilate and Sub
Priest: Disc and Shadow
Shaman: Ele, Enh and Resto were all really good
Mage: Frost (fire i think to a certain degree, i actually cant remember so i will leave that out)
Warlock: Affliction and Destro were both really good
Druid: Balance, Feral and Resto were all really good (resto was strong when treeform was perm)

You compare that to today where some classes dont even have 1 good spec (hello warriors and hunters), half of the specs are above are completely useless (destro, balance, survival is possibly the worst thing ever invented at this point for pvp, mutilate etc), and frost mages can dominate pretty much everyone with timed cds and their stupid shatter crits (hes complaining about mages what a noob!). It was never this bad in Wrath, sure dks were op for the first season, but thats just 1 class, compare that to the amount of bad specs and the fact that mages are pretty much the new dk (apart from theyve been ridiculous for a whole expansion) you get my point. Well i hope you do anyway.

Take what you want from that, but thats my perspective and sort of opinion.

[Wolfdragon]

Dear lord TJ do you play an ele shaman? Then it's Destro lock, if neighter then you're crying over not 1shotting people as a ret anymore, I remember wrath I played through it, all the LSD globals I've eaten have made it a very bitter expirience to remember, do you even remember Beastcleave? you're calling that balanced? press 5 buttons at most and win? balance? no, not really. Do you remember how pathetic feral was in Wrath? ofcourse you don't you didn't play it, tranquilize savage roar and laugh at him cuz he can't do damage... atleast not enough to kill you. Remember RMP, it used to be able to win against anything if played correctly. Back in Wrath about 90% of the game was comp the last 10% was MS delay, run LSD with low MS=free glad for anybody, and I dare you try to disprove me. Wrath pvp balanced? no, you're just butthurt you can't global people anymore on your elemental shaman in 5sec it actually takes 30 now.

[Deleted]

Dear lord TJ do you play an ele shaman?

He is right about class/spec viability, though. It is pretty sad that most classes have one spec that works in arena and two that are complete shit (the only exception being priests, and druids to a certain extent), I like diversity and I even enjoyed facing prot spec'd paladins/warriors on occasion because of how well we had to play in order not let our priest get absolutely destroyed. It was fun. Now you face a certain three class combination and you know their specs exactly without having to even look at their buffs or frames; sure, you'd find out the specs right away in wrath too by doing that, checking buffs, but you hardly have to adapt anymore because the amount of viable comps has been halved (or more).

I don't think WotLK was balanced per se but S7 is regarded by the high rated community as the best season so far; that has to count for something, right? S8 and S6 are both high up there too. Just ask around. It was extremely fast paced and that was another thing I enjoyed, on top of more diversity. You had to think, react and act in those seconds that the beastcleave you were facing took to press their 5 buttons, you had to control and plan in order not to put yourself in a situation where an LSD can obliterate you in a shadowfury stun (although I admit they were unavoidable at times, regardless of how well you played) - that to me is fun and that's why I play the game.

All in all, his opinion is as valid as yours, he doesn't have to play an elemental shaman, ret paladin or destro lock in order to see WotLK as a better expansion far as arena goes - My main is and has always been a holy paladin and I openly admit I liked Wrath more, regardless of terrible players getting Gladiator as LSD (I know several), beastcleaves and ATCs globalling my priest and RMPs forcing my bubble within the first 10 seconds of the match. It wasn't balanced but that's not what I want it to be, I want it to be fun despite being imbalanced. It's crystal clear it'll never truly be balanced in the eyes of certain people, why strive for it? It's pointless.

PS: Exerion, Evleh and Bloodshadow even went to a regional tournament as feral/rogue/priest during Wrath, ferals weren't all that bad, I know several who managed to achieve rank 1 throughout the expansion. Also, it clearly wasn't 90% comp; take my battlegroup, for example, there were two teams getting rank 1 from threes, mine and Zotan's, we played dispelcleave and TSG respectively - neither were tier 1 comps. Not even close. Both our teams were actually the only ones in the world with aforementioned combinations to get rank one in S8.

[Wolfdragon]

I'm not sayin feral was completely bad, no, that wasn't the point obel. Fact is compare a feral comp to a ele shaman comp in wrath (stealthcleave vs. LSD per se) My point being it felt awfull to me playin that. It felt as if I was constantly gimped whatever I play if the opponents run a better comp, it's not like now, when you can always turtle it up and fuck them up in the end.

Back then if LSD got a proper shadowfury off you lost right there, and even if you got them to make mistakes they'd still have way more room for error than you did as stealthcleave, and you know how bad it feels to have little room for error against a team that can make 10 mistakes back to back and win off of comp overpoweredness, I know the ferals that we're good back then, I myself wasn't that good, but feel free to ask Exerion, did he feel gimped doing it back then, the 99% answer is yes.

That's a fact- I know you enjoy fast paced things and that striving for balance shouldnt be an objective, I'm not striving for complete balance but I do want to be able to win against any comp at any level regardless of the (viable) comp I run- This has never been the case, and sadly enough the only reason WoW pvp is regarded as fun is because you find a loophole in blizzards design which is plain obvious at times (MLS being best comp atm) fun fact is people are plain retarded towards it and think they're actually good if they run MLS and get glad, much like LSD's in the past.

not trying to devalue Rod Dakkroth and Druden, but look at Snutz Pookz and Toez, put them in ANY other comp they wouldn't have it easy getting glad, much less having a breeze making it to the finals, Remember Novoz Diziet and that lock who's name I forgot as Arena Pwnage back in the day? Do you even remember how much spells Novoz casted in total- I do 9 spells LHW LB BL LB(lightning bolt) CL and that's it, no more bar clutter, and ofcourse that occasional hex and shocks but that's mostly it, again not striving for balance, striving for a fair game where I can't lose to retards pressing 5 buttons at most against over 30 of mine- I don't like feeling gimped- But I play feral so it comes with the job, I enjoy not being the top of the food chain, but I want to be able to shit on the top of the food chain.

(In the future, please try to break apart your posts in to something more readable.)

[Deleted]

I don't think that in general specs are more or less viable now than wotlk.

I see more retris now than in wotlk.
I see more SPs now than in wotlk.
I see more ferals now than in wotlk.

etc etc

But hunters are in a bad spot as usual. Worst like always. Love it that we can play RBGs well with our hunters at least.

[Stanton Biston]

But hunters are in a bad spot as usual. Worst like always. Love it that we can play RBGs well with our hunters at least.

How can a class be the worst class and capable of being the best in the world at the same time?

Logic would dictate that it's a one or the other scenario.

OT: In this thread there are people who like the current pace of PvP, people who want it to be much slower and people who want it to return to WotLK's much faster pace. Effectively, each pacing represents a completely different game. Thus, no matter what, 2 of the three groups won't be happy.

A real conundrum.

[rzy]

But hunters are in a bad spot as usual. Worst like always. Love it that we can play RBGs well with our hunters at least.

Clearly you have no idea about PvP, hunters are one of the best classes in the game, if the person can play it well, a hunter won Blizzcon ffs, not only won but DESTROYED every "FOTM" comp there.

[Wolfdragon]

I'm gonna say this once, and only once, in a tournament that is 70+% comprised of warlock+shaman teams, a PHD can prosper, PHD crumbles against most feral and warrior combos, has a very hard time against RMP and the fact that those same gamers we're on a whole other level, they weren't like the others that played on semi-equal grounds, no they we're head and shoulders above them all-so it comes as no surprise they won- Look at goochi's playstyle no other healer in that tournament had such positioning, the hunters positioning was downright picture perfect, and the dk was murdering like a real beast, I am willing to bet if those same players ran a different comp but ran it that much better than the rest with playstyles just as much better, it wouldn't even matter which classes they ran. I'm not gonna say hunters are in an awfull spot, but their spot isn't that good.

[TJ]

Dear lord TJ do you play an ele shaman? Then it's Destro lock, if neighter then you're crying over not 1shotting people as a ret anymore, I remember wrath I played through it, all the LSD globals I've eaten have made it a very bitter expirience to remember, do you even remember Beastcleave? you're calling that balanced? press 5 buttons at most and win? balance? no, not really. Do you remember how pathetic feral was in Wrath? ofcourse you don't you didn't play it, tranquilize savage roar and laugh at him cuz he can't do damage... atleast not enough to kill you. Remember RMP, it used to be able to win against anything if played correctly. Back in Wrath about 90% of the game was comp the last 10% was MS delay, run LSD with low MS=free glad for anybody, and I dare you try to disprove me. Wrath pvp balanced? no, you're just butthurt you can't global people anymore on your elemental shaman in 5sec it actually takes 30 now.

In cata i play warrior and rogue, in wrath i played rogue, warlock, and a bit of feral. Too be as vague as possible, feral was nowhere near bad in wrath, berserk = insane damage and fear + poly immunity(perm), not to mention switching forms breaking roots. I will leave it at that because Obelodalixs post did a good job of summing it up, and i dont really feel like arguing.
So thank you Obelodalix.

[Deleted]

Clearly you have no idea about PvP, hunters are one of the best classes in the game, if the person can play it well, a hunter won Blizzcon ffs, not only won but DESTROYED every "FOTM" comp there.

I actually have to agree with Wolfdragon's post just below yours, to be fair. The fact a hunter won BlizzCon does not necessarily mean they're the best class in the game and insane if played correctly. The former is clearly not true and the latter is true but only to a certain extent. Hunters have a gigantic skill cap even though they're one of the worst classes far as arena goes - this is why you either see hunters struggling sub 2.2k or you see hunters winning Blizzcon/at 3k rating, not in between. A hunter didn't win Blizzcon because hunters are one of the best classes in the game; a hunter won Blizzcon because even though a class is broken, extremely skilled players will still be able to perform nigh flawlessly with it under the right circumstances. Well, that and the fact he had insane partners.

[Anuna]

Cataclysm in regards to PvP is made for brainless retards. If I try to peel for my healer in 3v3 when we meet tsg we're gonna lose because no pressure on the TSG team. If I go full burst and kill the dk together with my retri paladin partner in a repentance + cyclone + hammer of justice on the healer, then we win. We can't peel, if we peel we lose due to no pressure. We just run and gib the TSGs dk instantly nowadays instead, it's fucking retarded. You shouldn't win by just jumping and popping all CDs, we've bursted down DKs through paladins popping wings + guardian without any problems. They need to fix the fucking damage output in Cataclysm and make ranged classes easier to catch up to(Mainly thinking about hunters(wtf? frost trap covering the whole fucking arena floor pretty much, it's retarded) & mages(o hai, i have a million novas and roots and then blink to get me out of stuns here). They need to make it harder to burst someone down fast, they need to make it so you actually have to set up a CC chain. The most bullshit match we've played was against a MLS, warlock had the legendary staff and so did the mage. We were all 3 fucking dying at the same time without our healer being able to do fuck all because of imp cs & spell lock. I just gave up on playing arena after that game, it's just not worth it anymore.

[Wolfdragon]

You played one of the several very hard feral comps in the game at this point, Feral/Ret/X(I'm not saying all feral combo's are hard, but this one is rather hard, alongside Rogue/Feral/Priest and LSD3) it isn't made for brainless retards, it really depends on the comp, Double legendary MLS would have me shittin my pants aswell, but it's no reason to stop playin, que-dodge says hi. On the other hand as Ret/Feral/(priest/sham) it's rather hard to beat an MLS so I wouldn't really comment towards your combo choice against an MLS (you had a choice lol, joking but still considering 2300-2400+ is mostly MLS anyway I'd avoid queing with anything that's countered by MLS) if it wasn't as bad as it is as none of you have fear immunity which is basically the only thing that gives meleecleaves a chance against MLS in general. Reply to Anuna if it's out of context, cheers.

[Letharg]

It wasn't balanced but that's not what I want it to be, I want it to be fun despite being imbalanced. It's crystal clear it'll never truly be balanced in the eyes of certain people, why strive for it? It's pointless.

That is the reason why I loved the BC arena most. I played in Wotlk And Cata too and both was ok but I really loved how the arena fights worked in BC (Ok 2 hour+ matches sucked but 45mins - 1 hour could be awesome) .
Back then heal and CC were overpowered especially in 2v2 and beacause of that there were a lot of classes/specc you couldnt play in highrating but with those you could play it just felt awesome. Chain ccing for 30 seconds and more isnt possible anymore thats why I dont like double dd teams anymore But back then i loved that you needed perfect timing for a longer period of time instead of just popping your cds in the right moment and bursting your enemys down. (talking about 2vs2)

[Sunslayer]

Mages thinking they are "squishy" and get trained. Try playing as a DK vs any Melee cleave. Gates open, 2 GCDs later I am at 10% health. I have to spend the entire fight running for my life with no CDs to aid me against the melee "F-train". At least as a Frost Mage you have 100 CDs to keep melee off you. yes, they can be dispeled, but that takes a lot of healer GCDs to do so, buying space and time. mages have iceblock x2 and Ice Barrier, mirror images, a target drop. Mages that think they are in a bad place need to see what it's like on the other side of the fence.

Cata PvP at this date and time is just horrid. Most of the specs are useless and poorly designed. People still make them work somehow, but that doesn't make them good specs.

Take Hunters for example. Hunters can be very strong. but, if you havent played one yopu wouldnt realize it takes twice the work to do the same things everyone else does with ease. Roar of sacrifice? Ever tried using this? it takes tons of macros. Ever tried using a trap? Mages just cast poly or RoF. We have to get in scatter range (good players see this coming and go for the healer to eat the trap), fire our trap that takes 2 GCDs because we have to activate trap launcher, then the trap. it takes the duration of a scatter just to get your trap to the target.

Steady shot is just horrid damage and you have to cast it constantly. Hunters are very poorly designed, but masters make them look easy.

---------- Post added 2011-11-25 at 01:04 PM ----------

How can a class be the worst class and capable of being the best in the world at the same time?

Logic would dictate that it's a one or the other scenario.

You should try a Hunter at 85. See for yourself what others are saying. Hunters take a lot of effort and a lot of keybinds to what everyone else is doing with ease. I'm not being a smart-ass, just being honest. Hunters can be powerful, it just takes much more skill than being good with a Warlock or Frost Mage.

[Kynn]

Because you have to sacrifice too much to nick that last little piece of resilience. For many classes trading resil for a secondary stat is fine, such as pvp head and shoulder enchants. But trading it near 1:1 for their primary stat, not so much.

So you're saying Resil loses its value after 4000-4100, despite what the graph is saying about 'effective health'?

[Feranor]

How can a class be the worst class and capable of being the best in the world at the same time?

Logic would dictate that it's a one or the other scenario.

OT: In this thread there are people who like the current pace of PvP, people who want it to be much slower and people who want it to return to WotLK's much faster pace. Effectively, each pacing represents a completely different game. Thus, no matter what, 2 of the three groups won't be happy.

A real conundrum.

You know, you could put a reference to that one tournament in the context of which one hunter was successful in playing in a comp that no one had a static strategy prepared against in your signature, then you wouldn't have to post it in every thread on the PvP forum manually.

---

TJ is right though, all that's really changed is that now there are fewer viable specs, 1v1 isn't even a challenge anymore for a decent Frost Mage and when there's a healer around your best chance is to lure your prey far, far away from them, because otherwise nothing will die.

MoP changes sound promising, but I guess most of it will just be bait-and-switch, as with the previous expansions.

[Stanton Biston]

You should try a Hunter at 85. See for yourself what others are saying. Hunters take a lot of effort and a lot of keybinds to what everyone else is doing with ease. I'm not being a smart-ass, just being honest. Hunters can be powerful, it just takes much more skill than being good with a Warlock or Frost Mage.

I have a hunter at 85, (as well as every other class) which I've been playing since Vanilla. I understand that they're a demanding class to play well. But I don't think it makes them 'the worst class'.

---------- Post added 2011-11-26 at 12:53 PM ----------

You know, you could put a reference to that one tournament in the context of which one hunter was successful in playing in a comp that no one had a static strategy prepared against in your signature, then you wouldn't have to post it in every thread on the PvP forum manually.

And if everyone would stop calling Hunters, "The WORST class" I wouldn't have to. Which actually brings me to-

TJ is right though, all that's really changed is that now there are fewer viable specs, 1v1 isn't even a challenge anymore for a decent Frost Mage and when there's a healer around your best chance is to lure your prey far, far away from them, because otherwise nothing will die.

Hunters are one of the only classes (hunters and warlocks) I've seen win consistently against Frost Mages

MoP changes sound promising, but I guess most of it will just be bait-and-switch, as with the previous expansions.

Game is pre-alpha and you're already disappointed? That's just sad.

[Feranor]

And if everyone would stop calling Hunters, "The WORST class" I wouldn't have to. Which actually brings me to-

Hunters are one of the only classes (hunters and warlocks) I've seen win consistently against Frost Mages


Game is pre-alpha and you're already disappointed? That's just sad.

You're right that Hunters aren't as bad as their reputation, far from it. It's just that this one incident you keep bringin up doesn't prove that, or anything.

Mage vs. Hunter depends almost entirely on what LoS is available... besides, Hunters are far worse against several other classes; and in 1vX (X > 1) because of their clumsy CC and lack of immunities/absorbs.

Disappointed? Not sure if that's the right word since I don't really have any expectations to begin with. And why would I? So far pretty much every single attempt to implement good PvP since DAoC has failed pathetically. Not just attempts by Blizzard. It's the same story with Mythic and WAR, Funcom and AoC, NCSoft and AION, Trion and RIFT ... the only difference really is that WoW has higher production quality and a working PvE endgame.