5.0 Retribution Talent calculator Changes

[LukashP]

Schmilblick, I just registered to MMO Champion to show you how wrong are you. Please try to read a bit more before posting comments .

Paladin Retribution (my PvP POV)

Tier 1 :

- Speed of Light : a long cooldown for the small utility it brings
- Long Arm of the Law : a littler nerf but still useful, can be replaced by "Burden of Guilt" and "Seal of Justice" (Seal switching game-play is back again youpiiiiii)
- Pursuit of Justice : just useless

None of them is useless. Since there will be a lot more sources for hopo, even pursuit of justice can make up for average 15-20% increase in run speed. Speed of light is 10% uptime and heal additionally, I'd say very good. LAOTL gets nerfed, but at least you dont have to judge in a specific range

Paladin Retribution (my PvP POV)

Tier 2 :

- Fist of Justice : Must be made baseline for Retribution since we got no more Repentance as an instant cast
- Repentance : a sheep-like that will be extremely useful for a Holy Paladin but situational for a Retribution
- Burden of Guilt : the long awaited change is here, a Hamstring and it's distant, can be combined with LAotL to get a awesome mobility, can also be replaced with "Seal of Justice" (waiting to know if it can be dispelled or no)

Here is the first part you should read more . Hammer of justice stays as a baseline stun for Retribution!
Seal of justice will also be baseline! So you don't have to get the burden of guilt.
And repentance , how can you say it's situational ? Is polymorph situational ? I understand that only because of that people may focus on rets even more but that just opens a world of possibilities for comps with ret.

[QUOTE=Schmilblick;14380606]Paladin Retribution (my PvP POV)

Paladin Retribution (my PvP POV)
Dislikes :

- Repentance cast and no more in the Retribution tree; (we have already the weakest CC in the game with the Enhance Shamy)
- No new offensive technique and Hammer of the Righteous and Crusader Strike will (Certainly) share the same cool-down resulting in the same boring game-play we have right now;
- No other procs than exorcism, hoped to see Vengeance back :'(
- Too much defensive abilities, need to swap some of those with some new offensive ones
- Hammer of the Righteous generates HP, have lower CD and deals AOE holy damage and thus, will certainly replace Divine Storm

I repeat, repentance is awesome, also for the defensive playstyle, it's just the way rets are, does everyone needs to play warrior style ?

[Requital]

Seal of justice will also be baseline! So you don't have to get the burden of guilt.

No just no, Seal of Justice is crap has always been crap and will always be crap. You have to sacrifice all of your damage to snare someone that can be dispelled that is just a terrible system and it should be removed from the game. Burden of Guilt aka Judgement of Justice is exactly where it is. While it's not a win win situation it's a good start they never should have removed judgement of justice anyway.

[LukashP]

Requital, take a look at the talent calculator first.
Seal of justice in MoP = 50% speed reduce for 5 sec. Burden of guilt = 50% speed reduce for 12 sec, but from all judgements.
Both will be dispellable.

I dont think that this upgrade is worth leaving repentance, unless you play some kind of cleave where no one else has a snare.

[Talen]

Requital, take a look at the talent calculator first.
Seal of justice in MoP = 50% speed reduce for 5 sec. Burden of guilt = 50% speed reduce for 12 sec, but from all judgements.
Both will be dispellable.

I dont think that this upgrade is worth leaving repentance, unless you play some kind of cleave where no one else has a snare.

The issue here is that melee, due to their nature, require a some answer to the question "If my target is over there, how do I damage him?"

Its why the lack of a viable gap closing mechanic has hurt the class so much.

For PvP, BoG is going to near mandatory for a Retadin unless he can be certain a teammate will bring it.

I consider it a poor, bog standard, easy, cheap and quick fix to implement a ranged snare for the class and potentially one thats overpowered given the existence of certain other mechanics. But it cannot be denied that such a mechanic CAN work if its worked in correctly. For PvP, Repentance is a second rate CC effect and always has been due to various issues. The snare is far more important and necessary.

EJL

[Requital]

Requital, take a look at the talent calculator first.
Seal of justice in MoP = 50% speed reduce for 5 sec. Burden of guilt = 50% speed reduce for 12 sec, but from all judgements.
Both will be dispellable.

I dont think that this upgrade is worth leaving repentance, unless you play some kind of cleave where no one else has a snare.

I repeat Seal of Justice is crap has always been crap and will always be crap. You take your repentance and do minimal damage at most and I'll stick with my snare and keep pouring out real damage.

[zcks]

The issue here is that melee, due to their nature, require a some answer to the question "If my target is over there, how do I damage him?"

Its why the lack of a viable gap closing mechanic has hurt the class so much.

This ^ is easily solved by doing 1 of 2 things.

1: Give the class an instant gap closer, which is by far the best option but one blizzard management refuses to do because they feel paladins must be "different" in many ways even if that difference makes them unable to be balanced properly.

2: Give the class a ranged snare strong anti kiting tools & a decent amount of Ranged offensive potential. Some of his has been done but only in a very weak manner & one that is easily countered by offensive dispels.

If they were to do 4 things then 2 would actually work.

1: Implement a ranged snare which they already plan on doing, good work blizzard wish you did it more often for ret. though it may need to be slightly weaker (a 40% snare would be alright) when taken into context with #2, 3 & 4.

2: Make hand of freedom Immune to dispel effects when used on self, this one is an option depending on how strong you make 3 & 4.

3: This one is real important, Make exorcism always be instant & always generate a charge of holy power for ret, also increase its base damage by about 20-30%.
After that simply change the Art of war talent so that any special attack/spell cast has a chance to make your next exorcism cost no mana & do +50% damage.
(this would mean ret could provide some ranged offensive pressure but not as much as a true ranged spec, mana would also prevent exorcism from just being spammed)

4: Create a ranged holy power finisher, one that is not as strong as TV but has some sort of secondary effect. Say either heals the paladin for a set % of the damage done or reduces the physical/magical damage done by the enemy (effects players only) for a set number of seconds.

Those 4 things combined would not only effectively reduce the effects of kiting but would also get rid of the problem the spec has with RNG.

[Talen]

This ^ is easily solved by doing 1 of 2 things.

Well...technically, 3.

1: I can go to him.
2: I can bring him to me.
3: I can stay where I am and hit him anyway.

1 requires a gap closing mechanic - something that makes the paladin faster than the target long enough and reliably enough to close the gap.
2 requires a pulling tool of some sort.
3 requires ranged combat mechanics with a certain degree of viability.

Warriors use 1, DKs are best known for 2.

People may not like the idea of paaldins using option 3, but it does seem to a be a viable alternative.

EJL

[zcks]

Warriors use 1, DKs are best known for 2.

People may not like the idea of paaldins using option 3, but it does seem to a be a viable alternative.

EJL

Well it would definitely keep ret "Unique" which is something blizzard management is dead set on.

Ideally that ranged damage potential should not be near what the spec can do in melee but it should be enough to lessen the effects of kiting causing your damage potential going to crap.

As a secondary bonus it would also make the spec a bit more like a "shockadin" which allot of people miss.

[Talen]

just...no.

as much as I would like to agree with you or Talen, this idea of *limited ranged response* is fail due to the simple fact that it is pretty binary in terms of effectiveness in pvp, You either HAVE TOOLS to get the job done(i.e. get in melee at the right moment ON DEMAND and FINISH the target) , or you DONT.
just imagine you are a ret paladin with said limited ranged response capablities, and you are tasked with catching up with, say, a hunter so you can finish him off while your 2 teammates hold off enemy healer. And as you dont have tools to get into melee, you utilize your "ranged response" which is not powerful by defult for the sake of balance, so it doesnt get you the job done and you fail.
This is how it is atm with LAotL as a MEANS to close the gap instead of it being an ACTUAL gapcloser.

Thats a pretty binary way of looking at things.

And you are wrong.

Imagine if exorcism can be cast while moving. Imagine if you had Holy Shock and generated 1 HP on use.

Now you have Judgement and the sprint, you have a ranged attack to use whle closing and you have a ranged HP generator allowing you to heal up some of the damage the Hunter is causing. Will you catch up with him? Maybe, maybe not...but you now ensure he can't kite you as easily or as safely, you esnure you can attack and deal damage and you reduce the need for burst for when/if you do reach him. Now, add in a Holy Bolt as a strong rnaged attack that you have to cast while stationary and you have a limited ranged toolkit that provides a semi-viable resposne to kiting but isn't a charge or traditional gap closer.

And there are other ways of doing so.

uniqueness doesnt transcend to *usefulness* or even "effectiveness"
just look at LAotL now, it is a unique way of getting into melee, yes.
But is it useful? is it realiable? does it get you the job done?
no, no, and no.

Its useful, its reliable but it doesn't work as a gap closer in PvP. And it further overloads Judgement. As for the limitations you need to impose....burst wouldn't need to be anywhere near as strong as it currently isand, overall, that would be a very good thing.

EJL