Weird Choices in Tier 1 of New Talent System?

[Maester]

I don't know if I'm the only one that noticed, but for the level 15 tier of the new talent system (first tier), if you look at the talent "Speed of Light", doesn't it look like they're mixed up?

It reads:

Holy
Reduces damage taken by 20% for 12 sec.

Protection
Increases damage done by 10% for 12 sec.

Retribution
Radiates 1000 healing to allies within 10 yards for 12 sec.

Shouldn't Holy's be Protection's, Protection's be Retribution's, and Retribution's be Holy's? Is it a typing error that they will fix soon?

Or am I missing something? Or am I dumb?

[Kelesti]

That's not an error. It's intended.

A movement talent should be a movement talent, not a movement talent that makes you do your job better. Otherwise, what's the point of the other movement talents?

It's just this one is lower than Long Arm of the Law's average of 15% (higher for Ret), and on a longer cooldown, so they wanted to toss in a reason to spec it. As Holy, in PvP this is more than welcome. As Protection, a nice threat boost on pull (the time you need to run fastest anyways), and Ret gets a freebie heal that won't really make or break anything.

[Kelesti]

7/10, would laugh again.

[Kelesti]

all good xept that was not made for lulz.

I dunno, Talen seems to think it's forcing people that "RET HAS TO TAKE THIS AND NOW IT'S A HEALER AND DPS AT THE SAME TIME WHEN SUPPORT CLASSES DON'T WORK

GJ BLIZZ".

[Requital]

Not sure about the rest of you but option 3 is what I would call the most optimal option for Ret. 10% movement speed per charge of HoPo, considering now we will have snare finally and overall with 3 HoPo not only can you keep your target from moving off but be ready to burst when you run them down.

There are some refreshing changes in MoP data I had definitely considered this to be the end xpac for myself as Ret but after playing with and reading the new talent/skill system I have more faith in the product then I have in quite a while.

[HawynLegend]

AE-heal ? for dps spec? not to mention the amount healed WILL be miniscule thus rendering its usefullness as heal?
please, dont make me start using harsh language

WOOOSHHH. Talents are still being worked on, and who's to say that the heal won't benefit from AP?
I see little use for it outside of raid stacking/RBG/5v5 Arenas. And even then, for PvP you'd probably be choosing one of the other two talents.

[Splosion]

Thats basically what I was saying, as it stands NOW, there is next to no reason to take SoL as ret. It fails as a realiable movement enhancing ability due to long cd, so it must be of benefit via attached utility. Ret' version of utility, sucks a Man's bosom.

Not necessarily. For PvE it will have some use, even if it's just a "the group needs ae healing", similar to an enhancement dropping healing rain. We've no idea how it will scale, considering it's the retribution version it could well be AP, making it very useful for a short burst of group healing. It would beat the current (4.2 live) version of Holy Radiance simply because it doesn't have a mana cost.

My concern is that the protection one will likely be spammed on cd for heavy movememnt fights, which I suppose could be the intention, but it isn't supposed to be taken for the bonus, rather the on-demand sprint.

[Boogieknight]

Seems situtional in either PvP or PvE for Ret, but to me doesn't seem like a good option
Situational for holy in PvE to charge into AoE damage and hit holy radiance on themselves if needed or charge out of damage and survive in PvP or PvE.
Protection seems like a threat boost at start of fight or just extra damage in PvP.

Either way I hope they're still trying to change these.

[Splosion]

no again. and here is why:
1. miniscule aoe gimmick healing as ret is gimmick
2. we were discussing pvp profit of this ability, not pve,as in pve it is just gimmick
3. it WILL scale poorly, otherwise ret will become viable as an aoe healer. Talen is right on it.

yeah, protection might *spam it*. but as ret, you will not spam it due to very long cd, so it fails as a movement enhancing ability, so it must be of benefit to ret via spec bonus (+damage done/-damage taken), or have its cd reduced. dramatically. I would go as far as to say that SoL providing heal as ret, but having at least 25 sec cd would be very decent ability. But here is where the problem arises: as holy, you'd get a 20% redux on a 25 sec cd. so, not gonna happen. so, gonna suck for ret unless new spec bonus provided. Logic is a bitch.

You've done it again, and only read half of my post. I said PvE, not PvP, which is what my post was referring to. How can you prove it will scale poorly? We've only been given a (possibly erroneous) tooltip, and no co-efficents whatsoever. As far as I know, Holy radiance is a useful tool for ret right now, especially on fights with some kind of +% involved (Nefarian, Majordomo come to mind). This looks like a mana-free alternative, with a neat speed boost attached.

As for spamming it, I simply meant using it on cooldown. Ret might, depending on the fight. But then again, you'd probably spec out of it if you didn't need it - it will take around 5 seconds with the new style talents. As for changing the cooldown, I don't see it. Holy radiance in its current form has a 1min cooldown, so why shouldn't this, since it's basically the same thing? Go spec LaotL or PoJ if you don't want this sprint. You have the option to. Logic doesn't even come into it.

I'll just repeat myself again, just for clarity. Don't just respond without actually understanding what I post.

Edit: And FYI, good tanks use wings more than once per pull.

[Splosion]

protpaladins arent famous for tremendous aoe capabilities.

Hahahahahahaha, you serious?

[NotValidAnymore]

protpaladins arent famous for tremendous aoe capabilities.

I sincerely hope you're joking.

Anyway, it's a run speed boost with some added utility to it. The utility is basically just an added bonus.

I mean, if they designed everything to fit for one thing, why do you think they would add gear in raids with secondary stats you don't need?

[Splosion]

actually, no, I read it through.
I can provide you logic assumptions and conclusions.

but here is where you are going astray, because as ret, using it on cd is gimmick aspect of an ability actualy created to provide MVM-speed increase.
Holy Radiance doesnt have anything to do with it. Re-read my post thoroughly, please.

Here:

no again. and here is why:
1. miniscule aoe gimmick healing as ret is gimmick
2. we were discussing pvp profit of this ability, not pve,as in pve it is just gimmick
3. it WILL scale poorly, otherwise ret will become viable as an aoe healer. Talen is right on it.

Pretty sure holy radiance has everything to do with what you started to talk about, but you changed your mind and jumped to the "MVM" (because typing movement is hard) part because you realised we actually had counters for it.

And yes, I dont like this ability, but since we are in a debate over what we know in regards to new talents, I express my opinion and idea how to fix this talent so it can become attractive for Ret in PVP.

For a third time, I was talking about PvE, not PvP. Stop ignoring this, the post isn't entirely PvP, it seems to be only you who believes that. Who lost who again?

and FYI, number of times a tank uses wings during fight does not make a or break him as a good tank. You couldve not pop Wings even once during any fight and I am damn sure nobody would notice the difference. Probably, because everyone measures how good is tank by his, err, tanking. Hence, Wings during pull, and further into fight - just as you please.

May be true, but all the little things add up. Wings is a useful utility tool, not just +damage for 1/6 of the fight (as it largely is for retribution)

prove me wrong. Provide me with evidence that guilds are using protpaladins for aoe.

In what context? Protection paladins are one of the highest aoe tank classes. Behind only warriors if I recall right. A huge number of guilds used paladins for the heavy aoe-bosses (Sinestra, Nefarian, Maloriak, Halfus, Rhyolith, etc), because they are extremely good at it. Not to mention likely take the least amount of damage out of all tanks in a heavy AoE scenario.

[Deleted]

no...

They could've work it out of cliche's.
f.e:
holy: allows casting on the move for the duration of sprint
prot: increases healing received for the duration of sprint
ret: allows using Hammer of Wrath for 12 seconds/or allows using TV from range for the duration of sprint

just some ideas.

You dont grasp the concept of MoP. The point of the new talent calculator is that no talent becomes mandatory, everything is a choice.

What dont you get about that?

CHOICE.

[Deleted]

and you dont get that there is no choice between 3 abilities of t1 for ret, only between PoJ and LAotL. Ergo, I am voicing my conscerns.

Your suggestion gives no choice for either spec, 1 would be mandatory. Even if there's only a choice between 2 talents, Blizzard has succeeded in some way.

[Kouki]

The mage has it the worst, im glad im not a mage.

The first tier is all frost talents. I understand they want anyone of any spec to pick any skill and not suck worse than anyone else.
But the 3 masteries of mages increase 3 different spell types damage, so an arcane mage and fire mage would never use a frost based talent.

[Deleted]

would it?
Even if Blizz has succeeded in some way, in some other way, it failed.
Ergo, I raise my voice.

Some people are never happy. Ret's being pushed in the right direction, and we're in pre-alpha phase.

[Splosion]

no... I just simply explained why it is insignificant for ret, and is gimmicky.
and I use *MVM* just because I saw Kangodo do it and I kinda liked it
so no, I have yet to see your counters to "it".

It's still useful for ret, but the talents have to be useful for all specs, and that might not mean that they're equally as strong in all aspects of the game for all specs.

and here I am, stating I acknowledged you are so obsessed with proving me wrong on pve grounds. But I already admitted, it will be of use for PVE RET, and TOTALLY USELESS for Ret PVP, which is my issue with this ability.

How is a high-speed sprint useless? The heal is just a bonus. Holy radiance for the holy spec on live (4.2) works the same way. In PvP it's used for the sprint, not the healing.

all little things add up in top edge cookie cutter guilds. are you hardcore enough? Are you pushing for World/Server Firsts?
Wings is a useful move for ret due to changing the way ret behaves for the duration of wings(not an issue anymore come 4.3 but still) and for prot, if you would use it on cooldown, it would be just what you said - +damage for the 1/6 of the fight.

Doesn't exactly matter about progression, it still separates the good from bad. And for protection, 1) you don't use it on cd, and 2) it isn't just +damage.

sigh... they may be one of the highest aoe tanks or not, it doesnt matter, because you dont take tanks for aoe unless you are min-maxer, you just grab a boomchicken, and she does the job better than a dozen hot nasty protadins.
Taking damage doesnt have anything to do with paladin'aoe capabilities. its CTC.

Who says I was talking about protection doing more aoe damage than a balance druid? AoE threat + high aoe damage reduction = good aoe tank. Protection isn't a dps spec.

Deciding to add spec-related bonuses was a good idea, otherwise the AE heal would've been far more useful for holy, and now it's been turned into a 2nd divine protection for them, which helps everywhere. Perhaps moreso than LaotL for holy (Especially since it seems Improved Judgement is wandering off). Any of the suggestions you gave was too powerful, and this tier is for mobility, not damage.

[Splosion]

is it useful for ret? or for raid?

It's primarily a speed increase. So ret.

In pvp its used for high-speed sprint which IS useless for RET due to long cd.

Tell that to rogues. Sprint is the same. What I think I'm starting to see is that you want a 60% sprint on a short cooldown. Which isn't that far removed from crying about nerfs.

What? Using Wings separates good prot from bad? How exactly? and for protection: 1. just proves my point 2. wow I guess you are hinting at Wings+WoG or Wings+loH combos?

I never said it was all of what separates good tanks from bad ones. Wings only on the pull is what everybody does. Why would I even suggest LoH? Wings is still a utility cooldown that is part of a tank's array. Using it once would be like using Divine protection once. Good tanks don't do that.

It doesnt matter unless you are min-maxing. Aoe threat is insignificant due to 500% threat modificator, and prot does not have *higher aoe damage reduction*

Tell that to ferals or blood dks. Hell, even warriors earlier in the expansion. If a balance druid does 5x more damage than the tank on the mobs he hits (early pickup of them), it's going to tear aggro. 500% isn't the be-all solution, it just made everything significantly more trivial.

Yes indeed its a good idea, but implementation is not delivering, for now.
My suggestions were not way too powerful, not at all. and I say it for one thousand and second time that these ideas were just "Scetches" of what can be done. And yes, this tier is mobility, not damage, but if SoL is to provide some aside effect besides sprint, it better be useful for each spec otherwise noone will choose it.
Look at it now. Holy WILL pick SoL because it gives a strong sprint AND useful side effect. Can you say so about prot' one and ret' one? No.

I can say about all three. The answer is that it varies between fights, which is exactly the model of talents that blizzard are moving towards. I can see a on demand 60% sprint being extremely useful for all specs if I'm quite honest.

allowing to cast on the move for the duration of sprint feels pretty holy in my eyes.
and for the thousand and third time, I just showed you some basic ideas to think about. I am more than sure you couldve generate a couple of them aswell.

Perhaps, but then you've just given holy a short cooldown cast on the move (See Spiritwalker's grace, 2min cd) which would then make holy more overpowered, especially in pvp, as they're mobile enough already. Providing ret their most damaging move from range is also a very bad idea from a pvp perspective, because ret is not a ranged class.

[Jdman]

I dont see whats wrong with the level 15 talents, they are all speed buffs to some degree. The secondary abilities to that one talent are just an added bonus to the talent for each spec and aren't meant to be very strong, the reason they do stuff counter-intuitive to what the classes role normally is (ret gets the aoe heals, ect.).

I actually like the idea of having a rogue sprint on my pally, it might not be the 'best' one statistically but its the 'best' one for me, you know for fun. The secondary ability is just an added bonus.

[Deleted]

I dont see whats wrong with the level 15 talents, they are all speed buffs to some degree. The secondary abilities to that one talent are just an added bonus to the talent for each spec and aren't meant to be very strong, the reason they do stuff counter-intuitive to what the classes role normally is (ret gets the aoe heals, ect.).

I actually like the idea of having a rogue sprint on my pally, it might not be the 'best' one statistically but its the 'best' one for me, you know for fun. The secondary ability is just an added bonus.

Everything has to have a bad side, Paladins are getting some nice treatment, snares, speedbuffs but people will always find bad sides. But i do agree with you