Grinding In GW2.

[Cuchulainn]

They haven't really discussed the rewards for minigames yet, but I'm sure there will be some. As for eliminating the grind; I don't think that's entirely possible. I think the game would become a Blast-n-leave game if it there wasn't any kind of grind. Honestly, anything can be described as a grind by anyone. The game is challenging? IT'S A GRIND. The game has daily quest system. IT'S A GRIND. The game has a combat system that doesn't give you 9000 things to do? BECOMES A BORING GRIND. I think we can nit pick at it all we want, but I think the real kind of grind is when no new type of content is presented every patch/expansion.

Look at WoW, how much has really been added to it after 7 years? You can joust, the new darkmoon faire (finally), seasonal events (not many MMOs go without them, so meh), and possible a FEW other to name. Other than a few things, there really isn't anything else outside of questing, dungeoneering/raiding, PvPing, and daily quests. I think when there simply isn't enough to do OUTSIDE of combat is when the game starts to feel like a grind. I like that WoW added tons of tools to their game over 7 years, that's cool, but it's not going to sate content hungry players. I don't know if this is true, but I have to give them credit where credit is due: it's gotta be hard creating new raids and what not using a modified WC3 engine. An engine designed for an RTS.

I'm glad GW2 is going to give us tons of things to do outside of combat right off the bat, and I hope ANet adds more of this kind of content in future expansions.

[Fencers]

They haven't really discussed the rewards for minigames yet, but I'm sure there will be some. As for eliminating the grind; I don't think that's entirely possible. I think the game would become a Blast-n-leave game if it there wasn't any kind of grind. Honestly, anything can be described as a grind by anyone. The game is challenging? IT'S A GRIND. The game has daily quest system. IT'S A GRIND. The game has a combat system that doesn't give you 9000 things to do? BECOMES A BORING GRIND. I think we can nit pick at it all we want, but I think the real kind of grind is when no new type of content is presented every patch/expansion.

Yea, I agree fully here.

The last part there about content additions has been on my mind lately w/r/t TOR and to some extent GW2. They seem to be much harder games to plug new stuff into regularly due to production. At this point I expect major updates at least once ever 1 1/2 months.

Pretty excited to see what comes of it all.

[Cuchulainn]

Yea, I agree fully here.

The last part there about content additions has been on my mind lately w/r/t TOR and to some extent GW2. They seem to be much harder games to plug new stuff into regularly due to production. At this point I expect major updates at least once ever 1 1/2 months.

Pretty excited to see what comes of it all.

I'm just hoping that they'll push themselves to create new content, and elaborate on old content every so often in order to keep the flow of the game interesting and also to keep current content interesting. I think that's why there aren't any raids in the game. They're difficult to balance, take an incredible amount of development time in ALL departments, and pull the focus away from other aspects of the game. I'm glad of it. Good riddance. This really allows ANet to keep pumping out new dungeons with great lore, high replayability, and interesting mechanics. They could make a million dungeons and they'd never get old, I'd think. Their dungeon model is ideal, and really helps take the grind out of the game, as well as the loot system.

Yet, I don't know. There's a lot to the game, and keeping up with all of it, and keeping it balanced seems like a daunting task to developers. Sure they're spending 5 years making the game, but how well off with the game be 5 years after that? I digress. That's a conversation best left for another thread.

[Fencers]

I'm just hoping that they'll push themselves to create new content, and elaborate on old content every so often in order to keep the flow of the game interesting and also to keep current content interesting. I think that's why there aren't any raids in the game. They're difficult to balance, take an incredible amount of development time in ALL departments, and pull the focus away from other aspects of the game. I'm glad of it. Good riddance.

I am not so sure about this. Rift has managed to add new raids and new 5 man dungeons almost monthly since launch. We just got a 5 man with five modes, a new 10 man raid, several open world raids and a new world zone 2x as big as the biggest zone previously. Next month another raid is planned and possibly an even larger zone in the next 2-3 months.

Think the idea of instance content coming out slowly ala Warcraft is no longer acceptable. Nor does that content decrease other areas of the game. Trion have up the ante.

This really allows ANet to keep pumping out new dungeons with great lore, high replayability, and interesting mechanics. They could make a million dungeons and they'd never get old, I'd think. Their dungeon model is ideal, and really helps take the grind out of the game, as well as the loot system.

Yea, agreed.

Yet, I don't know. There's a lot to the game, and keeping up with all of it, and keeping it balanced seems like a daunting task to developers. Sure they're spending 5 years making the game, but how well off with the game be 5 years after that? I digress. That's a conversation best left for another thread.

That's the beauty of scaling. As I said earlier, a lot of problems in previous MMOs are rooted in the fact they are static. You get better, you gear gets better and the only thing left is tier XXXXX.

Just by having what looks to be a more fluid system in GW2 they [Anet] fundamentally are building a game that can scale. Instead of you scaling out of it. OT, I guess but interesting nonetheless.

[Ynna]

They haven't really discussed the rewards for minigames yet, but I'm sure there will be some. As for eliminating the grind; I don't think that's entirely possible. I think the game would become a Blast-n-leave game if it there wasn't any kind of grind. Honestly, anything can be described as a grind by anyone. The game is challenging? IT'S A GRIND. The game has daily quest system. IT'S A GRIND. The game has a combat system that doesn't give you 9000 things to do? BECOMES A BORING GRIND. I think we can nit pick at it all we want, but I think the real kind of grind is when no new type of content is presented every patch/expansion.

I don't fully agree here. Yes, what feels and does not feel grindy depends on the person. I'm sure there's someone who thinks Super Mario is a grind. But if we define grind somewhat, you'll see that it can be mostly eliminated. Grind is, for me, doing the same monotonous activity over and over again, for a longer period of time (at least 15 minutes, often longer, sometimes going on for months--think end of WotLK) to get some kind of reward.

If you remove the reward, you remove the grind, but you also remove most of the gamey aspects.
If you have multiple ways of achieving the reward, it gives extra variety so you can reach the goal however you do it, and alternate between approaches whenever you get bored.
You can also implement side-activities that in themselves do not contribute to achieving the reward, but can help you in activities that do. The side-missions in Assassin's Creed are this somewhat.

And I'm sure there are more things, but it's bloody early, and I hardly slept, so this is all I can come up with at the moment.

[Cuchulainn]

@Fencers: That's the great thing about Trion, the company is focused on one project: RIFT. That's it, and that's the reason why they're able to pump out so much content in such a short time. Their devs aren't being tossed around 9001 projects at a time, so they're able to keep their focus on the only game they HAVE to focus on. The same goes for ANet. I didn't think of it until you mentioned it. Thank you for reminding me.

@Ynna: I respect your stance, and I'm not going to disagree with you because I'm not nearsighted. I see many things in many games as a grind, spanning across all genres. The things you pointed out are just some of the things I see as "grindy". I don't think it's really a matter of what we think is a grind, it's a matter of what is a grind. We can narrow our perspective of what's grindy and what's not, but it all comes down to what the devs are doing. They know well what content they're putting in the game, and they know well if it's supposed to be grindy.

[Blznsmri]

@Fencers: That's the great thing about Trion, the company is focused on one project: RIFT.

Front page of their website suggests something different.

[Fencers]

@Fencers: That's the great thing about Trion, the company is focused on one project: RIFT. That's it, and that's the reason why they're able to pump out so much content in such a short time. Their devs aren't being tossed around 9001 projects at a time, so they're able to keep their focus on the only game they HAVE to focus on. The same goes for ANet. I didn't think of it until you mentioned it. Thank you for reminding me.

Not to get Off-Topic but they are developing [& have been before Rift launch] End of Nations (MMO/RTS), Defiance (Weekly MMO) and some technology things for future games & licensing. :P

Anet being focused on just GW2 I think gives us this much-talked-about iterative process they are doing rather openly. Pretty sure all games go through such stages, but I not sure we see many games in their alpha with the polish GW2 seems to have.

Just look at those Total Biscuits gameplay vids- he's playing for good while in those videos. And already it is obvious many of the progressive elements are part of the game from the go- your in the personal story, the world is busy, movement is fluid & tight (big deal in reducing grind), etc.

I do disagree somewhat with those who feel an involved combat system such as we seen only postpones the feeling of "grind". Hotkey MMOs, aside from having a base design that sorta inspires "grind; are also kinda boring to play. Think about it for a second, you don't really enjoy the experience of playing as much as the planning. That fireball will always hit you in Warcraft/Eq/Rift. Just a matter of planning if you can live through 9 fireballs vs 10.

No doubt in my mind a fluid world and combat system will make the elements of grind (such as they will be) in GW2 minimal in burden.

[Cuchulainn]

@ Blz & Fen: I am mistaken. I only played Rift for a month before giving it up. I would probably keep playing if there wasn't a monthly fee, but meh, to each their own. I think it's amazing that they're pumping out so much content even though they have other things going on. That's really good news and shows dedication on the devs part. Thank you for the info.

Anet being focused on just GW2 I think gives us this much-talked-about iterative process they are doing rather openly. Pretty sure all games go through such stages, but I not sure we see many games in their alpha with the polish GW2 seems to have.

QFT.
Never have I seen an MMO in alpha stage that has such a nicely polished demo. A long one at that. Also to touch up on TBs videos. Have you seen his video while he's playing The Heist? He totally goes on a rampage about how he has quit WoW and GW2 will be his new MMO home. So many TB (and WoW) fans raged at him by saying stuff like "well, he was never a reviewer at all, anyway". Hahaha, what a bunch of butthurt asshats.

[Blznsmri]

Slightly off topic, but anyone remember what GW1 looked like in its Alpha?

[Fencers]

I was in the later beta of GW1, when it was only Prophecies. They had the game running up to Maguma Jungle/Shiverpeaks. Parts of Post-Searing Asclaon were not there yet. Like the western half of the map. It was fairly well running but they had the difficulty cranked up to nightmare.

Beta GW1 was shockingly unforgiving. The Wilds, Aurora Glade, the refugee mission in Kryta, forgot the name... super hard.

[Blznsmri]

I was in the later beta of GW1, when it was only Prophecies. They had the game running up to Maguma Jungle/Shiverpeaks. Parts of Post-Searing Asclaon were not there yet. Like the western half of the map. It was fairly well running but they had the difficulty cranked up to nightmare.

Beta GW1 was shockingly unforgiving. The Wilds, Aurora Glade, the refugee mission in Kryta, forgot the name... super hard.

I was more or less referring to the art used in the Alpha before they got that guy from Half Life.

[Fencers]

I was more or less referring to the art used in the Alpha before they got that guy from Half Life.

Yea, I only had the beta giveaway thingy for pre-order CE. Fuzzily I remember more stocky looking models and a way uglier UI in the early days of alpha->beta. The Shiverpeaks reminded me a lot of Icewind Dale at the time.

[Deleted]

I didn't mind grinding mobs in GW1 for golds, holiday items, materials or rep it was fun, usually "quick" in the sense that you could pick a solo build zone in kill 30ish mobs in a minute or so and restart. It had a fluid motion to it that made it fun. Grinding in WoW for example is another story altogether, especially reps before the introduction tabards being available for the majority of reps.

The only thing that annoyed me about grinding in GW1 was the strong emphasis on meta builds and it was a pain in the ass levelling a new character and getting it to end game story wise to unlock the popular farming runs such as DoA. However, now that this kind of farming/grinding is gone in GW2 and points/items will be from DE's I think they will be quite enjoyable to grind.

[Chickensoup23]

I have no problem with long grinds. I actually prefer long grinds in my mmos.

<--- Flyff player. Yep, grinding. Oh lord.

[Deleted]

I don't mind, it's actually nicer to achieve a title or whatever when you've grinded hard for it. It'll give some kind of satisfaction :P

[Eorayn]

I actually love the occasional grind

[Khanjin]

I got insane in the membrane in wrath, what do you think?

[Cuchulainn]

I got insane in the membrane in wrath, what do you think?

I think you wasted a lot of time.

I like the occasional grind for a title, mount, pet, or piece of ascetic gear here and there, but the "Insane" title just never seemed worth it to me. If a few other rewards were included for going through that massive bullshit grind, then yeah, I'd probably put myself through hell for those rewards. I guess the title fits well though, only someone who is "Fucking Crazy Off Their Rocker" could do a grind like that. That's why I could never stay interested in MMOs like EQ, especially after playing a lot of Diablo; where things went into my bags and armor slots at a steady pace, but not -too- steady.

[Fencers]

Ha! Have you seen the amount of achievements you needed in GW1 to max out? Just the one where you explore the entire world could take months- and clear every _single_ baddie.

I did it twice! ;D