2013 NBA Season News and Discussion

[chadwix]

Well said blue, my basketball expertise is limited to video games but i could still do a better job than this guy. But the facts are the facts, john gabriel said it when he was gm here, he doesnt make the calls on player personnel. The one thing that has stayed the same through out our franchises history is pat williams and our front office. He puts the league first, magic second.

We have a new arena, there is no reason for them to try. A truely pathetic organization. The best arena in the US sells itself.

Btw, JJ was going to get paid at the end of the year. Much like we see with our rookie gm and head coach (making peanuts) this franchise is milking the arena the tax dollars built them.

[jreg]

Chicago fans cheering after LeBron comes up hobbling after a hard foul by Robinson. You'd think Chicago fans of all people would know better.

[Blueobelisk]

Blue why you bashing my boy from Arkansas Ronnie Brewer isn't bad he just doesn't fit in the coach's playstyle. I think he is going to be great for OKC he is what they need to beat the Spurs (Not saying they will but he can't hurt) and if they get to the Championship game again he can guard some of the Heat players that OKC can't seem to guard.

Nah sorry Ronnie Brewer isn't THAT good. Maybe if he took extra initiative to try to be an offensive force.

But I will praise Tony Parker. He dropped 31 points to obliterate the LA Scissors!

[Skarsguard]

Nah sorry Ronnie Brewer isn't THAT good. Maybe if he took extra initiative to try to be an offensive force.

But I will praise Tony Parker. He dropped 31 points to obliterate the LA Scissors!

Lol yeah I saw that on Sportsnation yesterday where they where calling them the LA Scissors anyways one game and everybody is saying Tony Parker is in the MVP and barley over Lebron James....Wow Mike and Mike, Charles Barkley,Reggie Millier, Stephen A.Smith, man wth lol.

[jreg]

Lol yeah I saw that on Sportsnation yesterday where they where calling them the LA Scissors anyways one game and everybody is saying Tony Parker is in the MVP and barley over Lebron James....Wow Mike and Mike, Charles Barkley,Reggie Millier, Stephen A.Smith, man wth lol.

On a night where LeBron drops 26/7/12 which has only been done 11 times this season. LeBron is the only one who has done it more than once with 6. Last night was also the only game where someone dropped 26/7/12 on better than 70% shooting. Much respect to Tony Parker but the knee jerk reaction is ridiculous.

[Valeron]

Lebron is getting the Messi (worlds best soccer player) treatment from pundits I think. People get accustomed to the continual excellence of the player that they start looking at other players for their "mvp" even though those players don't have near the performance of a Lebron (or Messi).

[Stommped]

Lebron has better stats than TP, but if the award actually went to "most valuable" then it would be TP hands down. The Heat have been healthy all season and the other 2.5 stars on the team have been there every step of the way. Duncan and Manu have been in and out of the lineup all season (Duncan played 16 mins and chipped in 9 pts and Manu played 17 mins and chipped in 10 pts to last nights beat down of the Clippers) and still TP has led the Spurs to a better record than the Heat.

It's honestly a joke that Lebron ever won the MVP in Miami considering he plays with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, and now throw in Ray Allen coming off the bench and it's laughable. They really need to change the name of the award to Most Outstanding Player if they want to keep handing it to him. How was Lebron the MVP last year when a Bulls team without D Rose for a third of the season finished with a better record than the stacked Heat team? Makes no sense.

[Neazy]

Lebron has better stats than TP, but if the award actually went to "most valuable" then it would be TP hands down. The Heat have been healthy all season and the other 2.5 stars on the team have been there every step of the way. Duncan and Manu have been in and out of the lineup all season (Duncan played 16 mins and chipped in 9 pts and Manu played 17 mins and chipped in 10 pts to last nights beat down of the Clippers) and still TP has led the Spurs to a better record than the Heat.

It's honestly a joke that Lebron ever won the MVP in Miami considering he plays with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, and now throw in Ray Allen coming off the bench and it's laughable. They really need to change the name of the award to Most Outstanding Player if they want to keep handing it to him. How was Lebron the MVP last year when a Bulls team without D Rose for a third of the season finished with a better record than the stacked Heat team? Makes no sense.

I'd take every other player on the Spurs other than TP over every other player on the Heat other than LeBron any day.

[Stommped]

I'd take every other player on the Spurs other than TP over every other player on the Heat other than LeBron any day.

Is that a joke? You just said every player other than TP on the Spurs roster is better than Dwayne Wade..............

[jreg]

Lebron has better stats than TP, but if the award actually went to "most valuable" then it would be TP hands down. The Heat have been healthy all season and the other 2.5 stars on the team have been there every step of the way. Duncan and Manu have been in and out of the lineup all season (Duncan played 16 mins and chipped in 9 pts and Manu played 17 mins and chipped in 10 pts to last nights beat down of the Clippers) and still TP has led the Spurs to a better record than the Heat.

It's honestly a joke that Lebron ever won the MVP in Miami considering he plays with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, and now throw in Ray Allen coming off the bench and it's laughable. They really need to change the name of the award to Most Outstanding Player if they want to keep handing it to him. How was Lebron the MVP last year when a Bulls team without D Rose for a third of the season finished with a better record than the stacked Heat team? Makes no sense.

So much of this is so flawed.

First, Dwyane Wade spent the first month and a half to two months with lingering knee problems. His stats were awful for a player of his calibre. People were actually talking about that in this thread. The Heat have had good health for the season but let's not pretend they haven't had problems. Do you really think it's coincidence that the Heat are on a nine game winning streak while LeBron averages 30.4 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 7.1 apg on 67.8% FG, 47.1% 3P and 81.1% FT?

Second, let's not pretend that the Heat have a super stacked team while simultaneously making the Spurs out to be some garbage team without Tony Parker. Without the big three, the Spurs almost beat Miami in Miami. Whether or not the Heat were playing down to the competition, the Spurs have an excellent team from top to bottom with a fantastic system in place by Pops. Again, it's not black and white as you make it out to be.

Finally, the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately crowd is out in full fucking force. The last two games Spurs played against the Clippers, Parker's stat lines were:

4 points, 6 assists, 4 turnovers, 28.6% FG.

11 points, 6 assists, 45.5% FG.

LeBron has not scored less than 15 points and he has not shot worse than 37.5% In fact, LeBron has only shot worse than 50% 8 times in 52 games.

I believe a case could be made for Tony Parker's MVP candidacy. I don't doubt that. But to say that LeBron winning an MVP while in Miami is a joke is in itself a fucking joke.

The only really legitimate point you made was the way an MVP is defined. It has almost never been about the most valuable player so much as a player on a top 3 team in either conference with a certain amount of statistical prowess.

[Stommped]

So much of this is so flawed.

First, Dwyane Wade spent the first month and a half to two months with lingering knee problems. His stats were awful for a player of his calibre.

And he's still at 21 PPG for the season.

Do you really think it's coincidence that the Heat are on a nine game winning streak while LeBron averages 30.4 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 7.1 apg on 67.8% FG, 47.1% 3P and 81.1% FT?

Great so they would have lost those 9 games if Lebron had shot 40% instead?

Second, let's not pretend that the Heat have a super stacked team while simultaneously making the Spurs out to be some garbage team without Tony Parker. Without the big three, the Spurs almost beat Miami in Miami. Whether or not the Heat were playing down to the competition, the Spurs have an excellent team from top to bottom with a fantastic system in place by Pops. Again, it's not black and white as you make it out to be.

Again, the Spurs have a great bench, but that is not as impactful as two other superstars on your team and a future HoFer who has the most 3s of all time.

Finally, the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately crowd is out in full fucking force. The last two games Spurs played against the Clippers, Parker's stat lines were:

4 points, 6 assists, 4 turnovers, 28.6% FG.

11 points, 6 assists, 45.5% FG.

Cool, so he had two bad games against the Clippers and one great game. Guess that proves... nothing?

I believe a case could be made for Tony Parker's MVP candidacy. I don't doubt that. But to say that LeBron winning an MVP while in Miami is a joke is in itself a fucking joke.

The only really legitimate point you made was the way an MVP is defined. It has almost never been about the most valuable player so much as a player on a top 3 team in either conference with a certain amount of statistical prowess.

Again as I stated, you want to change the name to MOP and give it to Lebron every year that's fine. In no way is he the most valuable player to his team, nor can he ever be unless Wade or Bosh miss nearly the entire season. See my point last year about how his team (again as healthy as a normal NBA team) finished 4 games worse than the Bulls without D Rose for a third of the season. How is he valuable? What's his value?

Getting 60+ wins on those Cavalier teams with garbage around him, now that was MVP stuff.

[jreg]

And he's still at 21 PPG for the season.

And yet the Spurs still score more ppg. Some of this is attributable to pace but at the end of the day, players still need to make shots. The Spurs team is excellent in this regard.

I also like how you say that he's still scoring 21 ppg as if that's an accomplishment when this is easily his worst season since his rookie year. Context bud.

Great so they would have lost those 9 games if Lebron had shot 40% instead?

Actually, they'd probably only win half of those games if LeBron shoots 40% based on point differential. The very idea of LeBron shooting 40% also hurts everyone else on the team because the defense can play him far differently than they do in those 9 games. Difference between a 9 game win streak and being a 0.500 team. Isn't that the point of MVP?

Again, the Spurs have a great bench, but that is not as impactful as two other superstars on your team and a future HoFer who has the most 3s of all time.

And again, I don't care where the scoring comes from. Point is, the Spurs are a fantastic team. Great offense, great defense. It's NOT just Tony Parker's doing.

Cool, so he had two bad games against the Clippers and one great game. Guess that proves... nothing?

If you're trying to make a case for MVP, shitting bricks in games against the top teams in the league tend to hurt your case. It's not fucking hard. Stop playing stupid.

Again as I stated, you want to change the name to MOP and give it to Lebron every year that's fine. In no way is he the most valuable player to his team, nor can he ever be unless Wade or Bosh miss nearly the entire season. See my point last year about how his team (again as healthy as a normal NBA team) finished 4 games worse than the Bulls without D Rose for a third of the season. How is he valuable? What's his value?

When Wade is out, Heat are still 14 - 1 and that's hugely attributable to LeBron stepping up his game. In the seven games LeBron has been out, they've only won once. That's the value.

[Stommped]

And yet the Spurs still score more ppg. Some of this is attributable to pace but at the end of the day, players still need to make shots. The Spurs team is excellent in this regard.

I also like how you say that he's still scoring 21 ppg as if that's an accomplishment when this is easily his worst season since his rookie year. Context bud.

So is Wade good or bad? You seem to be going back and forth between he's a great player, and he's a broken down/oft-injured player who barely contributes to his team's success.

If you're trying to make a case for MVP, shitting bricks in games against the top teams in the league tend to hurt your case. It's not fucking hard. Stop playing stupid

.

And he dominated CP3 and the Clips last night? How am I playing stupid? There are other great teams in the league besides the Clippers (who aren't all that great to begin with) why would you spoonfeed me stats from 2 random games?

When Wade is out, Heat are still 14 - 1 and that's hugely attributable to LeBron stepping up his game. In the seven games LeBron has been out, they've only won once. That's the value.

I'm not even sure where you are pulling that 14-1 stat from. Wade has missed 4 games this year; if you were including last year as well that wouldn't make sense either because he missed 17 games.

Either way you are showing you don't really understand basketball. The VALUE guys like Wade/Bosh/Allen bring to a team is so much more than Ginobli/Duncan at this point in their careers. If you can't grasp that then you are beyond hope. The Spurs 2nd most valuable player is actually Kawhi Leonard; while good, he is not D Wade yet.

Lebron did not deserve the MVP last year (Again his team finished 4 games worse than a Bulls team w/o Rose for 40% of their games). Dwayne Wade played more games than Rose did last year, and still with the three of them they couldn't finish higher than that Bulls team? That's not MVP. If your excuse is they frequently play down to their competition or play poorly on the road than that's too bad. MVPs don't let their team do that.

He absolutely does not deserve it this year when Wade has played much more. Hint: You're an idiot if you don't think Wade's presence on the floor alone (not to mention Bosh and a spotting up Ray) doesn't make Lebron's job easier. Sore or not sore.

[jreg]

So is Wade good or bad? You seem to be going back and forth between he's a great player, and he's a broken down/oft-injured player who barely contributes to his team's success.

Making stuff up that I didn't say doesn't help you or your argument in the slightest.

By the way, no one doubts Wade has been playing better of late just as it's undeniable that he played awful for the first month and a half.

And he dominated CP3 and the Clips last night? How am I playing stupid? There are other great teams in the league besides the Clippers (who aren't all that great to begin with) why would you spoonfeed me stats from 2 random games?

I think you're still playing stupid. Note the difference between that and being stupid.

The MVP award is a prestigious award. Yea, there have been some years the choice has been very debatable and the criteria isn't necessarily consistent (outside of patterns we can discern from all MVP winners) but when you're anointing a player with the title of most valuable player, every thing should be taken into consideration. Tony Parker, though having an amazing year, has also stunk it up pretty badly in a number of games.

The reason I specifically selected the two Clippers games was to set the framework of my argument that people are prone to a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mentality. Tony Parker has one good game against the Clippers in three games of which two he played horribly and people want to anoint him MVP. That's ridiculous. Last time I checked, MVP wasn't based on what you did lately but based on the full 82 game season.

I'm not even sure where you are pulling that 14-1 stat from. Wade has missed 4 games this year; if you were including last year as well that wouldn't make sense either because he missed 17 games.

It's the last updated figure. I really don't want to go back and fill in the few games left. The point remains the same.

Either way you are showing you don't really understand basketball.

Translation: I can't argue coherently so I'm going to make presumptions.

The VALUE guys like Wade/Bosh/Allen bring to a team is so much more than Ginobli/Duncan at this point in their careers.

Stop. Unless you're familiar with the Heat's offensive and defensive schemes (which you are revealing to be less than par), stop making blanket statements that simply aren't true.

Bosh is incredibly important for the Heat's spacing, this is true. However, even at their respective points in their careers, Tim Duncan is still a superior player. This isn't debatable. There are precious few metrics available that prove Bosh is a better player in any regard or that he's more important. Last time I checked, the Heat still managed to beat the Pacers in 6 despite Bosh's absence. Notice how in every instance of one of the big three missing, there's always one constant? LeBron James.

Wade's importance this year has been more on the defensive end than on the offensive end. His jump shooting is still mediocre and he's lost a lot of lift he used to have. His greatest asset is the ability to make perfectly timed cuts to the basket and draw fouls. As a singular entity, I'd say he's more important to the Heat than virtually anyone not named Tony Parker or Tim Duncan on the Spurs but the Spurs have a far superior bench and role players. That's where the difference exists. The cumulative whole out weighs what Wade brings to the Heat.

And Allen? Really? Spurs have two guys, almost three averaging the stats Allen does. In fact, saying that is an insult to Kawhi Leonard. Leonard is better.

If you can't grasp that then you are beyond hope. The Spurs 2nd most valuable player is actually Kawhi Leonard; while good, he is not D Wade yet.

Dude, stop. Tim Duncan on a per 36 basis is averaging 20.6 ppg and 11.7 rpg on 50.1% shooting. He's also got the best defensive rating in the league. He's also got a higher PER than Wade. There isn't a single subjective opinion that can argue against Tim Duncan's objective value to his team. And you think I'm the one who doesn't know basketball?

Stop misplacing "understanding" with anecdotes and subjective fluff in the place of objective and statistical analysis.

Lebron did not deserve the MVP last year (Again his team finished 4 games worse than a Bulls team w/o Rose for 40% of their games).

Ridiculous. Who did in his stead?

If your excuse is they frequently play down to their competition or play poorly on the road than that's too bad. MVPs don't let their team do that.

I never said this. Stop making presumptions.

He absolutely does not deserve it this year when Wade has played much more. Hint: You're an idiot if you don't think Wade's presence on the floor alone (not to mention Bosh and a spotting up Ray) doesn't make Lebron's job easier. Sore or not sore.

Hint: you're an idiot if you don't think Tim Duncan's presence on the floor alone (not to mention excellent shooting from Green, Leonard and Ginobli and Splitter's presence on the block) doesn't make Tony Parker's job easier.

See why this is a fucking awful argument?

[Pendulous]

Lebron did not deserve the MVP last year (Again his team finished 4 games worse than a Bulls team w/o Rose for 40% of their games). Dwayne Wade played more games than Rose did last year, and still with the three of them they couldn't finish higher than that Bulls team? That's not MVP. If your excuse is they frequently play down to their competition or play poorly on the road than that's too bad. MVPs don't let their team do that.

He absolutely does not deserve it this year when Wade has played much more. Hint: You're an idiot if you don't think Wade's presence on the floor alone (not to mention Bosh and a spotting up Ray) doesn't make Lebron's job easier. Sore or not sore.

Are you suggesting that the MVP should always go to the team with the best record? Because that's kind of a bad way to go about it.

[Jibjabb]

I think its either Kevin Durant or Lebron James at this point and its a neck and neck race. I would still lean towards Durant as his value to OKC is greater imo while also playing against tougher competition in the West vs the muddled down East.

Oh god once the PER argument shine its head you know its all gone downhill

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 11:09 PM ----------

Ridiculous. Who did in his stead?

Durant. More points, rebounds, blocks, better % from FT and 3PT, and most importantly won more games in the Western Conference

[Skarsguard]

I think the MVP should be somebody that if they where not on that team the team has no chance of winning the championship. Heat without Lebron could probably win just because the east is so bad I mean the second best team is probably the Pacers. I would say last year D.Rose should have gotten MVP without D.Rose Bulls are not getting past first and for sure not getting past 2nd round of playoffs this year. I know it was a different team but the Heat did win without Lebron some years ago with a old half a Shaq while Lebron was in the east and Lebron did get killed 0-4 against the Spurs so idk.Is Lebron the best player in the NBA yeah no question, is he the MVP who's to say at this point I have these people as in my MVP pool Lebron James, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, and Kevin Durant.

[jreg]

I think its either Kevin Durant or Lebron James at this point and its a neck and neck race. I would still lean towards Durant as his value to OKC is greater imo while also playing against tougher competition in the West vs the muddled down East.

It's really not that close.

And the argument about West vs. East is not a very good one. Heat are 20 - 5 against the West including sweeping the OKC series. OKC is 12 - 7 against the "weak" East.

Oh god once the PER argument shine its head you know its all gone downhill

Easy to dismiss, not so easy to show why. It's one metric of many. Stop treating it the same as a subjective opinion. It has flaws, but it's better than "because I said so".

[Jibjabb]

It still a completely terrible and irrelevant stat. If you want to argue use real statistics not made up ones by fuckin Hollinger

"In examining Hollinger’s metrics, though, it is not clear that his measurements are trying to explain anything more than what he originally believed about the players. He offers various weights for the statistics the NBA tabulates, and at times it appears he is constructing these weights in terms of points scored. But he never establishes that the chosen weights allow him to predict how many points a team scores or how many games the team wins. Without knowing precisely what and how well PERs explains and/or predicts it becomes very difficult to verify Hollinger’s claim that this metric is “accurate."

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA played does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

Just one example. Its like when people use QBR when debating Quarterbacks. It has Colin Kaepernick having a better rating than Aaron Rodgers which is hysterical.

[Stommped]

Are you suggesting that the MVP should always go to the team with the best record? Because that's kind of a bad way to go about it.

Not necessarily. I think you should try to gauge the amount one is responsible for his team's W/L record. i.e. I think Dwight Howard deserved the MVP during his peak years in Orlando because if you removed him from that team they were for sure lottery bound. There's no way this Heat team with Wade, Bosh, Allen, Battier, and Chalmers would miss the playoffs.

As for Jreg you are mindlessly dishing out Lebron stats for god knows what reason. You finally acknowledged my point from his last year MVP award in regards to the Rose-less Bulls having a better record, but your retort was:

Ridiculous. Who did in his stead?

Hardly a defense.

Dwayne Wade is better than anyone on the Spurs (including TP). Bosh is better than Duncan. And the Heat have plenty of shooters to throw out there as well, Allen, Chalmers, and Battier can all drain em.

Just give it a rest. He is the Most Outstanding Player, he is not the MVP. I would put TP, Durant, and CP3 all ahead of him.