Surv? What? Huh? How?

[Grolly]

3.84 DPS difference on a simulator YOU set up for YOUR gear does not prove me wrong. Just saying.

And also no: the more time you spend during a fight using skills that COST focus, the more damage you will do. Basically your DPS is inversely proportionate to how many cobra shots you do as it's our filler shot and obviously does less than any of our other skills in terms of DPS.

So if you spend time focus capped: you are losing DPS, no matter which way you want to bend it. Spending focus is always better than being capped: fact.

Also @Maelstrom You're not really delaying anything, as long as you use both LnL charges you're perrforming the same amount of explosive shots.

In the end you're just throwing away FREE damage if you're focus capping. Remember I'm not talking about using KC during unhasted normal periods of the fight. I'm talking about during RF, BL and ofc madness fight where you've got the 20% haste buff where you are in fact probably losing a lot more than 10 focus.

Because you've completely ignored the possibility of toth procs from both ES you shoot while focus capped: that's 40 potential focus on top of the 10 totally at a whole 50 focus wastage: another explosive shot.

So your setups wasn't BIAS then? I'm just saying. And yes I agree that capped focus during unhastened phases are a DPS loss. I have never argued against that. But the issue wasn't that now was it? When you are at the point where you have an excess of focus regen, this doesn't apply obviously. Because like I have stated twice now, as long as you are spending every GCD you can, and still focus cap, the shot that does the most damage is the one that is going to end up as the best shot to use. No matter how you look at it, KC does less damage according to you. KC also have a higher focus cost than Arcane shot, resulting in a lower damage per focus. Same applies for Explosive shot during LnL. I don't understand how you have problem grasping this.

[Deleted]

Illana if u try post on EJ forums you ll feel the banhammer faster then u can press killing command button :P

Im sorry but whats up with the extreme hate against Illana?

[Illana]

So your setups wasn't BIAS then? I'm just saying. And yes I agree that capped focus during unhastened phases are a DPS loss. I have never argued against that. But the issue wasn't that now was it? When you are at the point where you have an excess of focus regen, this doesn't apply obviously. Because like I have stated twice now, as long as you are spending every GCD you can, and still focus cap, the shot that does the most damage is the one that is going to end up as the best shot to use. No matter how you look at it, KC does less damage according to you. KC also have a higher focus cost than Arcane shot, resulting in a lower damage per focus. Same applies for Explosive shot during LnL. I don't understand how you have problem grasping this.

I'll show you what my settings say:





Also I don't understand how you have problems grasping the fact that EVERY GCD spent not using focus: you are losing DPS.

[Grolly]

Because there are these two things called Damage per execute time and Damage per focus that seems to have totally gone past you.
You can't spend more focus than your globals allow you to do. And in this particular instance that we have been discussing, where you are under extreme haste, Damage per execute time reigns supreme.

[Pope]

Because there are these two things called Damage per execute time and Damage per focus that seems to have totally gone past you.
You can't spend more focus than your globals allow you to do. And in this particular instance that we have been discussing, where you are under extreme haste, Damage per execute time reigns supreme.

Ok, but LnL and Explosive Shot is a special case. Due to the nature of the DoT, you need to use one skill between the three ES anyway.

ATTENTION: I'M TALKING ABOUT VERY HIGH FOCUS-LEVELS!

Most of the KC-haters in this thread say: ES-ES-AS-ES. You're not losing any stacks on ES, and spend your focus on the convenient AS. But you're potentially losing focus due to TotH and Focus-regeneration.

the pro-KC-people say: ES-KC-ES-ES. You have to spend 40 focus on KC, which is bad. But you can fire the next 2 ES back to back, and don't lose any focus on focus-capping.

That's why your and grolly's argument about being GCD-capped anyway is wrong.

[Dorfie]

I can't remember a time I got a LnL proc at 90 focus so that settles the KC debate for me personally.

[Grolly]

Ok, but LnL and Explosive Shot is a special case. Due to the nature of the DoT, you need to use one skill between the three ES anyway.

ATTENTION: I'M TALKING ABOUT VERY HIGH FOCUS-LEVELS!

Most of the KC-haters in this thread say: ES-ES-AS-ES. You're not losing any stacks on ES, and spend your focus on the convenient AS. But you're potentially losing focus due to TotH and Focus-regeneration.

the pro-KC-people say: ES-KC-ES-ES. You have to spend 40 focus on KC, which is bad. But you can fire the next 2 ES back to back, and don't lose any focus on focus-capping.

That's why your and grolly's argument about being GCD-capped anyway is wrong.

But tell me, which of the scenarios are going to end up doing the most DPS, and which scenarios are you more likely to end up with most focus after the sequence is completed? I know the answer to the first one, but im not so certain on the second.

During the LnL procc, you are locked into a 4 shot sequence no matter what, using a 5 shot sequence is a DPS loss I think we both agree on. So what matter is the DPS during the 4 shot sequence and the average focus you're going to end up with after the sequence is completed.

[Dracodraco]

Can you guys keep it civil, please? This is starting to evolve from a constructive discussion into meaningless bickering.

KC vs Whatever during Lock and Load should be quite simple, really.
Considering the fact that you can fire off ES+ES+AS+ES now without actually losing any ticks, then you would, at the most, regain 10 focus over the 2 seconds it takes before you can spend focus again.
Considering TotH procs, that would be roughly 50 focus total, with the best RNG, meaning you can probably "never" stay in the zone where you're able to benefit from all the focus. However, TotH is only a 15% chance, which means that out of every 50 lock and loads, only 15 of the explosive shots should return focus to you. Planning around, and assuming that we will have both proc seems like a very stupid thing to do. Especially as doing a Explo-KC-Explo-CS or AS-Explo will push back ES with one second every time you get a LnL proc.
Im not sure about the above with delaying one second on ES, mind you - its entirely possible you could go for a ES-KC-ES-ES cycle, although I'm a bit confused as to where you would want to put in the minor delay between shots then (ES-KC-ES+delay-ES?).
A middleground for this could be staying around 70 focus as your "max" - you'd be able to regain the focus from one TotH proc, along with your natural focus regeneration. Altering your rotation to push back explo shot to anticipate TWO TotH procs is like taking an umbrella with you everywhere in case it's going to rain - it's doable, but very annoying in the length and you probably won't be happy that you did more than once or twice a week.

As for having +90 focus when it procs, thats you doing something wrong - unless you are stacking Rapid Fire with BL, 4 set proc or trinket procs, then theres absolutly no reason you should ever go above 70 focus if you're relatively good at managing it.


Its also worth noting that if you're using an explosive trap to proc Lock and Load, trap launcher is 10/20 (glyph/unglyph) focus, not on the GBC, to remove some of the excess focus if trap is off cd within 10 seconds

[TJ]

Just tried Illanas suggestion of switching to 2/2 wild hunt rather than 1/2 wild hunt and 1/2 shark attack, and FD is showing it as..



This is with 1422 haste.

[Maelstrom51]

Also @Maelstrom You're not really delaying anything, as long as you use both LnL charges you're perrforming the same amount of explosive shots.

You're incorrect here. By delaying Explosive Shot by a global, that's half a tick less explosive shot damage you will have over the course of a fight. The quicker you use Explosive Shot, the quicker it comes off cooldown. This is really just basic stuff, I expected better from you here.

In the end you're just throwing away FREE damage if you're focus capping.

No, we're not. Hunters are a GCD capped class, so by using a global one one thing, you're losing it on another.
In this case, you're wasting a GCD on a skill that does less damage but costs you more focus than focus capping.
Lets put it this way, as a combat rogue would you use Backstab to make sure you don't focus cap during AR?

Remember I'm not talking about using KC during unhasted normal periods of the fight. I'm talking about during RF, BL and ofc madness fight where you've got the 20% haste buff where you are in fact probably losing a lot more than 10 focus.

It won't be a lot more than 5 fps though. Even at high levels of haste you probably won't be higher than 4.7 base focus regen. 4.7 x 1.3 = 6.1, ES -> ES -> AS -> ES still comes out ahead.

Because you've completely ignored the possibility of toth procs from both ES you shoot while focus capped: that's 40 potential focus on top of the 10 totally at a whole 50 focus wastage: another explosive shot.

The first ES in your rotation also can proc TotH and be wasted, so its really just the second ES we're looking at. That's a 15% chance of a loss of 18 focus, for an average of 2.7 focus lost in my rotation. Guess what, ES -> ES -> AS -> ES is still ahead. Oh, look at that, AS can also proc TotH, bringing it down to a loss of 1.35 average focus.


Really, using KC wastes more focus than focus capping, while doing less damage than the ES -> ES -> AS -> ES rotation. If that's not clear by now, then I don't know what to say.

[Illana]

You're incorrect here. By delaying Explosive Shot by a global, that's half a tick less explosive shot damage you will have over the course of a fight. The quicker you use Explosive Shot, the quicker it comes off cooldown. This is really just basic stuff, I expected better from you here.

Well actually no, LnL resets the cd on ES so unless you're delaying a whole 6 seconds between every LnL proc (pretty impossible if you're trapping, might happen with bad RNG if you use BA) you aren't losing any explosive shots.

No, we're not. Hunters are a GCD capped class, so by using a global one one thing, you're losing it on another.
In this case, you're wasting a GCD on a skill that does less damage but costs you more focus than focus capping.
Lets put it this way, as a combat rogue would you use Backstab to make sure you don't focus cap during AR?

Well no because sinister strike is completely different as it can proc 2 combo points, that's apples and oranges and has a whole load of other connotations attached like restless blades frequency and SnD/rupture uptime.

I understand your point however but you can't really compare it to any other class out there since it's unique to hunters. Ever since we got changed to focus the question on how to handle LnL has been a bit cloudy as we are discovering here.

But your point falls flat here, we're not choosing a skill that does less damage, in fact KC does more damage on average than Arcane shot because of it's critical chance.

It won't be a lot more than 5 fps though. Even at high levels of haste you probably won't be higher than 4.7 base focus regen. 4.7 x 1.3 = 6.1, ES -> ES -> AS -> ES still comes out ahead.

You're right about the focus wastage number yes, but it still doesn't address the point.

The first ES in your rotation also can proc TotH and be wasted, so its really just the second ES we're looking at. That's a 15% chance of a loss of 18 focus, for an average of 2.7 focus lost in my rotation. Guess what, ES -> ES -> AS -> ES is still ahead. Oh, look at that, AS can also proc TotH, bringing it down to a loss of 1.35 average focus.

Alright let's assume we start at 70 focus then, now what?

Really, using KC wastes more focus than focus capping, while doing less damage than the ES -> ES -> AS -> ES rotation. If that's not clear by now, then I don't know what to say.

It doesn't and no it's not clear from the way you've explained it

---------- Post added 2011-12-19 at 08:47 PM ----------

Can you guys keep it civil, please? This is starting to evolve from a constructive discussion into meaningless bickering.

KC vs Whatever during Lock and Load should be quite simple, really.
Considering the fact that you can fire off ES+ES+AS+ES now without actually losing any ticks, then you would, at the most, regain 10 focus over the 2 seconds it takes before you can spend focus again.
Considering TotH procs, that would be roughly 50 focus total, with the best RNG, meaning you can probably "never" stay in the zone where you're able to benefit from all the focus. However, TotH is only a 15% chance, which means that out of every 50 lock and loads, only 15 of the explosive shots should return focus to you. Planning around, and assuming that we will have both proc seems like a very stupid thing to do. Especially as doing a Explo-KC-Explo-CS or AS-Explo will push back ES with one second every time you get a LnL proc.
Im not sure about the above with delaying one second on ES, mind you - its entirely possible you could go for a ES-KC-ES-ES cycle, although I'm a bit confused as to where you would want to put in the minor delay between shots then (ES-KC-ES+delay-ES?).
A middleground for this could be staying around 70 focus as your "max" - you'd be able to regain the focus from one TotH proc, along with your natural focus regeneration. Altering your rotation to push back explo shot to anticipate TWO TotH procs is like taking an umbrella with you everywhere in case it's going to rain - it's doable, but very annoying in the length and you probably won't be happy that you did more than once or twice a week.

As for having +90 focus when it procs, thats you doing something wrong - unless you are stacking Rapid Fire with BL, 4 set proc or trinket procs, then theres absolutly no reason you should ever go above 70 focus if you're relatively good at managing it.


Its also worth noting that if you're using an explosive trap to proc Lock and Load, trap launcher is 10/20 (glyph/unglyph) focus, not on the GBC, to remove some of the excess focus if trap is off cd within 10 seconds

ES>KC>ES>ES has never clipped any ticks for me, I just tried it even spamming the last two at 70ms.

but draco, not sure if you're agreeing with KC here or not

[Zaxus]

To sum up:

Don't use KC. Manage your focus better (70 max) and do ES>ES>AS>ES.

---

Debating KC further seems pointless... If you're at the point where it might be close to AS (Full Focus) you've already messed up.

[Dorfie]

I just did 2 5 minute runs on the dummies. Only debuffs were hunters mark and 8% magic damage, no buffs.

Doing ES > ES > AS > ES I got 22.7k DPS with 10 LnL procs, 183 ES ticks with 39.3% crit on ES.

Doing ES > ES > ES I got 23k DPS with 8 LnL procs, 181 ES ticks and 37% crit on ES.

Now obviously 10 minutes of dummies isn't enough to chose what's better, but it looks close. The ES>ES>ES came ahead with less LnL procs and less crit on ES for this test.

---------- Post added 2011-12-19 at 10:20 PM ----------

To sum up:

Don't use KC. Manage your focus better (70 max) and do ES>ES>AS>ES.

---

Debating KC further seems pointless... If you're at the point where it might be close to AS (Full Focus) you've already messed up.

Agreed. Let's bury the KC hatchet by saying in a perfect rotation it's a DPS loss but if you should find yourself on high focus with a LnL proc it would be a dps gain to use it.

[Illana]

to both above: no.

[Dorfie]

to both above: no.

Hmm. I think you should give up, I've already stopped reading your useless dribble.

[Illana]

I just did 2 5 minute runs on the dummies. Only debuffs were hunters mark and 8% magic damage, no buffs.

Doing ES > ES > AS > ES I got 22.7k DPS with 10 LnL procs, 183 ES ticks with 39.3% crit on ES.

Doing ES > ES > ES I got 23k DPS with 8 LnL procs, 181 ES ticks and 37% crit on ES.

Now obviously 10 minutes of dummies isn't enough to chose what's better, but it looks close. The ES>ES>ES came ahead with less LnL procs and less crit on ES for this test.

---------- Post added 2011-12-19 at 10:20 PM ----------



Agreed. Let's bury the KC hatchet by saying in a perfect rotation it's a DPS loss but if you should find yourself on high focus with a LnL proc it would be a dps gain to use it.

I think this is what we define as useless dribble actually.

[Zaxus]

to both above: no.

Plenty of good analysis has been posted by Dracodraco and Maelstrom51 that supports KC almost always being worse than ES>ES>AS>ES. Not sure why you continue to cling to KC. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

[Illana]

Plenty of good analysis has been posted by Dracodraco and Maelstrom51 that supports KC almost always being worse than ES>ES>AS>ES. Not sure why you continue to cling to KC. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

maelstrom still hasn't convinced me and draco I'm not sure what he's advocating XD

[jekka]

I have to agree with mealstorm here. Like he mentioned before doing dmg is about using the best GCD possible in evry given time. What does it matter if you are focus cappd during haste procs? ofc you will be cappd with this new set bonus and crasy haste lvls but the number of GCDs u can put in will allways stay the same. Yes.. we have potantial focus being wasted but its only because we got a stupid orange bar with the number 100 on it! if we had unlimitid focus cap your arguement might be valid but even so imagine a situation where u got no resource named focus wouldnt you prefer to use 5 AS and 1 ES as your rotation? during this haste procs we will be cappd, this is not the end of the world like ppl stated as long as u make evry GCD count. For my hunter at the moment
gearwise Im aiming to have haste so my cobra cast is 1.5 sec (im also lucky to get DI) so most of my rotation is 4 filler and look like this: 2 AS 2 CS 1 ES (with new set bonus this happens quite often) when im getting LnL at high focus im actualy happy cuz i know my next round rotation will have 4 fillers and 1 ES, if I use KC instead my next rotation will most likly will not have 4 fillers in it thus I lose 1 GCD and this alone beats KC on dmg. Also it may happen that after using LnL like that i start a new rotaion with 100 focus or close to it (it happens rarly but mostly during BL and trinket proc+toth procs) than i can squeeze 4 AS and 1 CS (cobra shot cast is close to 1 sec) and have enough focus for new ES, thats 2 more GCD than using KC!
Finnal note: like others said you will lose potantial focus but it doesnt matter if you cant use it because we are locked by the GCD rules.
(sorry for typos)

[OmerIL85]

usually ES, waiting half a sec, ES, AS, ES works best for me,

but it might not, cause i have no addon to count ticks except for Recount..

is there any addon that shows ticks? ( more or less like quartz does for channeled dots?)