I think the spam of Tier drops creates problems to 10man guilds.

[Deleted]

This is because of the locked tokens to certain classes. A 25man can get away with it since out of merely big roster numbers they usually even out relatively OK. A 10man though is easy to have 2 on a token, or 1 on a token or 5 or even 6 members on a single token (if it's the big token especially).

So, when you have valor, at least you're 'fighting' over 1 or 2 tokens max, with this, you're going to be fighting with people for at least 4 tokens.

Now, this wouldn't happen if a token could go to any class or if Blizzard became responsible and started being less random, and gave drops according to what it sees online at the time.

Or then if it's unfixable, put back some tokens on valor.

[Deleted]

I raid in a 10man guild and we have no problem with it, don't really see the big deal? You have to spend a bit longer to get token bonus?

[egrus]

And since the 10man guilds can go in as a guild group increasing chance of tokens in LFR this is not a very big issue. even downgrading from heroic 391 to LFR 384 to get 2/4p bonus can be a upgrade, On Heroic tokens it might be a small issue.

[Nitrak]

I get a bit of what you are saying, but that is just 10 man for you .. Less players, less loot.

But yea, in our situation on 10 man, we got:
5 people on Vanquisher
4 people on Conqurer
1 guy on Protector

So yea, when we get Protector loot, we often get kinda sad

[Maelle]

We have yet to get 1 PPW token drop for our raid this tier. We have 4 people in that token - the decision to make all 5 pieces raid drops only has pretty much made us sad in our 10 man team.

We hardly got any of those tokens last tier either. I got my 4 set bonus 1 week before the 4.3 patch.

I wouldn't say it creates a problem per se - more fustration and pressure to get your pieces from the Raid Finder lottery is the main side effect. I remember from my 25 man days that some tokens would be premiuim DKP and others being rolled for offspec though, so while I think you feel it a bit more in 10 man, it's also an issue for 25 too.

[Lumpriest]

I'm not so much upset about tier drops as random loot drops. We'll all eventually get our tier, but having 1 and only 1 random item off each boss kind of blows. What if we get the stupid spirit plate bracers off of Yor'sahj every week or the bow from Zon'ozz? We don't even have a holy paladin or a hunter!

Seems like just our luck, considering we had vanq pants drop off of Shannox for 11 straight weeks last tier. :/

[Akraen]

Try having a 25-man with 13 people on Vanquisher

/sigh

Direct me to the thread where I can complain about the Vanquisher token. Basically, loot will be loot. There are imbalances everywhere unfortunately, but it can't be perfect. 10-man guilds get to enjoy easier heroics, less recruitment hassle, and more cozy atmosphere at the cost of wasted drops, worse loot RNG, and higher responsibility per person.

[Stevoman]

I get a bit of what you are saying, but that is just 10 man for you .. Less players, less loot.

But yea, in our situation on 10 man, we got:
5 people on Vanquisher
4 people on Conqurer
1 guy on Protector

So yea, when we get Protector loot, we often get kinda sad

This is basically your failure to recruit a good raid comp, and not Blizzard's failure in the loot system design, so it's hard to feel any sympathy for this and similar 10m loot stories.

[micho]

i see a revamp of the token system coming tbh , to fit with the tier from raids only system and obv the inclusion of a new class

[Akraen]

This is basically your failure to recruit a good raid comp, and not Blizzard's failure in the loot system design, so it's hard to feel any sympathy for this and similar 10m loot stories.

The raiders you have are often the raiders you have. That applies to both 10 and 25. You can't just magically get the exact comp you want, raiders don't appear by snapping your fingers.
Vanquisher has many problems, 4 roles on druid + 2 roles on DK + mage + rogue = 8 potentially completely different roles on one token. Raid comp/balance wise there's no reason why 5 of those can't be vanq: e.g. Bear Tank, Resto Druid, Moonkin, Rogue, Mage

[Eliot123]

Tbh it's mostly that people get RNG-d, I've done Firelands heroic so many times and I have yet to see either Shannox or Domo drop a hc token for shamans(/warriors/hunters). As for Dragon Soul, we've had pretty much all paladin/priest/warlock tokens so far. 8<

[Superlolz]

This is basically your failure to recruit a good raid comp, and not Blizzard's failure in the loot system design, so it's hard to feel any sympathy for this and similar 10m loot stories.

And what happens when you have 4 conq, 3 vanq/prot but for every reset, no conq drops? We should have had the foresight to bench all the conq right?

[Deleted]

I actually like the idea they seemed to play with in ToTFW Where you could get an essence of the forlorn and get any head slot.
wouldn't take too much for them to implement this system in Mists IE

Boss Dies, you get your usual off pieces drop then 2 / 3 "Head of the Panda / Legs of the Panda" etc. These could then be taken to a vendor within or outside the raid and could be exchanged for which the relevant slots. now the same would work in heroic, IE "Heroic Head of the Panda" but they could be used for normal or heroic loot, this way the faster progressing guilds can get there tier gear from heroic rather than having to farm it on normal then upgrade it to heroic

Item names are purely for ease

[Stevoman]

And what happens when you have 4 conq, 3 vanq/prot but for every reset, no conq drops? We should have had the foresight to bench all the conq right?

Law of large numbers and all that. You and many other guilds have probably experienced crappy luck with only have 3 resets so far in this tier, but the droprates will average out to the advertised 30%/30%/40% by the time 5.0 launches (especially if it winds up being the expected 8-10 months).

The raiders you have are often the raiders you have. That applies to both 10 and 25. You can't just magically get the exact comp you want, raiders don't appear by snapping your fingers.
Vanquisher has many problems, 4 roles on druid + 2 roles on DK + mage + rogue = 8 potentially completely different roles on one token. Raid comp/balance wise there's no reason why 5 of those can't be vanq: e.g. Bear Tank, Resto Druid, Moonkin, Rogue, Mage

Hence my use of the word "recruit" and not "current roster." Any guild can get the comp they want - you might have to bench a friend or ask them to switch mains, but are you playing for friends and family, or are you playing to push heroic raids?

Running a foolish raid comp (like your example of having both tanks on the Vanquisher token) is, again, your fault. Especially since your hypothetical comp has the double-disadvantage of missing a boatload of buffs. Replace your moonkin and resto druid with a warlock and paladin, and your DK tank with a Warrior tank. Problem solved.

[Deleted]

We have 1 protector (hunter), 3 conquerors and 6 vanquishers in our 10m raid. Needless to say, when we got heroic protector glove token from Zon'ozz both last and this week, we weren't happy...

[Cernunnos]

I doubt blizz will do anything with tier until MOP.

They have changed the classes on the tier tokens once before.

Tier 4/5 was
Defender: Warrior, Priest Druid
Hero: Hunter Mage Warlock
Champion: Rogue, Shaman, Paladin

When blizzard released tier 6 the tokens became
Protector: Warrior Hunter Shaman
Vanquisher: Rogue Druid Mage
Conqueror: Priest Paladin Warlock

When tier 7 came around in wrath, along with the addition of Death Knights, the vanquisher token was changed to include death Knights.

In MOP, with the addition of Monks, it is safe to assume we are looking at either Protector or Conqueror getting a 4th class added to it, ala tier 7, or we will see the token be shuffled again much like tier 6 was, and the monk thrown in the mix as well.



Do i like the current system, or what classes are on the current tier tokens, no, my guild doesn't particularly like them, but that is due to the classes my 10 man guild uses for our runs.

Warrior MT (Prot)
DK (OT) Vanq)
Rogue (Vanq)
Fury Warrrior (Prot)
Mage (Vanq)
Warlock (Conq)
Hunter (Prot)
Disc Priest (Conq)
Resto Druid (Vanq)
Resto Shaman (Prot)

4x Prot
2x Conq
4x Vanq

Not exactly the best spread of tier. But we love our various classes that we all play, so we deal with it. some of us got geared faster than others due to RNG, others still dont have their full tier set (even if only for sentimental value or to simply say they have all 5 pieces).

[themightysven]

they'll have to reshuffle, the current tokens:

Prot 7 R,Mg,D+,Df,Db,DKb,DK + monk 10 specs
Vanq 6 H,Wp,W,S+,Sc,Sm +monk 9 specs
COnq 6 Wk,Pr+,Prs,Plp,Pl+,Plm +monk 9 specs

adding monk to any of them makes for one really overloaded token, but if they reset them to something like this:

Token 1 D+,Df,Db,Pr+,Prs,Wp,W,H (8 specs) [4classes, 2 tank, 2 heals, 4 dps]
Token 2 M+,Mb,Mm,S+,Sc,Sm,Mg (7specs) [3 classes, 1 tank, 2 heals, 4 dps]
Token 3 DKb,Dk,Plp,Pl+,Plm,R,Wk (7specs) [4 classes, 2 tank, 1 heals, 4 dps]

keeps the numbers fairly even and the number of classes/roles fairly even


That said, I prefer a quest system where-in you get a quest from your class trainer to retrieve item x, it's the same item x for each class, then everyone can role, or the loot council/dkp/guildmaster's girlfriend can determine who gets that upgrade that week...

[Raider321]

This is indeed very true.

[Lucapa]

Class restrictions on tokens need to go.

[Deleted]

I absolutely dislike the "locked" part of the tokens, we got a hunter with 4/5 hc tokens now, will vendor them next ID, while our 2 tanks (pal+DK) got 2 pieces each (normal mode/raidfinder....)