Rawr - Bear - Mastery/Dodge

[Sharissa]

So I downloaded Rawr yesterday for my druid tank alt, and am wondering if it is accurate. Here's my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...radie/advanced (these are reforges it told me were optimal). It has mastery > dodge whereas I always thought dodge > mastery.

[Warheart]

I have limited experience with Rawr, and I only play feral druid as my alts offspec.

Under the boss settings in Rawr, if the melee swings are small relative to your HP then mastery will be stronger, but if the melee swings are very large then dodge will be stronger. So really it depends what content you are doing.

[Sharissa]

I'm currently doing normal DS. Under "Boss Does Damage" it's setting is "208,250 every 2s to 1 targets 100% phase uptime" Also our MT in our main raid is using Stay of Execution over Matrix Restabilizer. I think for dodging more the Elementium Terrors as he solo tanks MoD. But I would think Matrix would still be better? Opinions?

[Ihnasir]

Never utilized Rawr (I tried, didn't work), but I try to go for gear with Mastery and then reforge the other stat to Dodge. I'm pretty sure Mastery is coming out pretty big now due to the need for absorbs in T13 content. I never liked it (RNG) until recently and I saw improvement with more of it.

[BlackMagicMarkel]

Haven't used Rawr myself, but at this Tier level Mastery slowly starts becoming more useful than dodge due to dodge's diminishing returns. Mastery becomes even -more- useful than Dodge once you have your T13 2pc, as the RNG element of Savage defence is removed, thus letting you keep up a consistant damage shield (Well, more consistant).

We'll still be gemming for straight agility, as it's still our most useful stat (We avoid the straight mastery stacking of other tanks still) but reforging will be more to mastery with the more gear you get. Not all of it, but good chunks. I'd advise checking out your stat weights with the spread sheet from here if you haven't already.

[elimin]

Haven't used Rawr myself, but at this Tier level Mastery slowly starts becoming more useful than dodge due to dodge's diminishing returns. Mastery becomes even -more- useful than Dodge once you have your T13 2pc, as the RNG element of Savage defence is removed, thus letting you keep up a consistant damage shield (Well, more consistant).

We'll still be gemming for straight agility, as it's still our most useful stat (We avoid the straight mastery stacking of other tanks still) but reforging will be more to mastery with the more gear you get. Not all of it, but good chunks. I'd advise checking out your stat weights with the spread sheet from here if you haven't already.

Where do you feel the diminished returns begin? I have never been able to find a straight answer on this question. I'm sitting at just shy of 38% dodge just standing there by myself in SW self buffed, and so I've begun working on master instead. It has seemed to pay off alot more now with the 2 piece bonus.

[tangedyn]

Where do you feel the diminished returns begin? I have never been able to find a straight answer on this question. I'm sitting at just shy of 38% dodge just standing there by myself in SW self buffed, and so I've begun working on master instead. It has seemed to pay off alot more now with the 2 piece bonus.

Here's your straight answer: http://theincbear.com/dodge-diminishing-returns
TLDR version: Ignore the dodge diminishing returns - it doesn't negatively affect the dodge rating stat or agility stat - keep stacking dodge.

[Hinalover]

If you want to tell Rawr to always go dodge > all, then set the Boss Handler difficulty setting to a higher setting (such as Heroic 25 DS). That should change it so that it will favor dodge again. I'm planning on redoing a lot of the Bear module before MoP. It needs an overhaul badly.

[earthwormjim]

Where do you feel the diminished returns begin? I have never been able to find a straight answer on this question. I'm sitting at just shy of 38% dodge just standing there by myself in SW self buffed, and so I've begun working on master instead. It has seemed to pay off alot more now with the 2 piece bonus.

Diminishing returns apply to all dodge rating and extra agility you gain from your gear. A huge portion of our dodge though is not affected by diminishing returns at all.

Basic gist of it is, diminishing returns is not an issue for any attainable level of dodge we can get with our gear.

Here's a nice graph showing visually how diminishing returns affects dodge chance.



Realistically, 25-30% of our dodge comes from dodge rating (if you reforged to dodge) and agility. Using my character as an example, 28.29% of my dodge chance comes from dodge rating and agility. Looking at the curved line on the graph, I find where 28.29% is. Then I follow follow that point and go straight up to the yellow line. That tells me roughly how much dodge chance I'm missing out on due to diminishing returns. In this case I would have 36.27% dodge if there were no diminishing returns. Almost a loss of 8% dodge chance. I still do have some undiminished dodge though, 15.09% to be exact. Which brings my unraid buffed total to 43.38%.

If I were to compare myself with an all mastery reforge, and no dodge rating, I would have 36.93% dodge. 21.84% of it from agility; would be 26.11% without DR which gives a loss of 4.27%. So at this high dodge chance, to gain 6.5% dodge, I had to give up almost 4% more in diminishing return losses.

Here's the great thing about dodge. The more dodge you have, the better additional dodge becomes. Going from 36.93% dodge to 43.38% dodge is not just a 6.45% damage reduction, it's actually better than that.

With 43.38% dodge, I have a chance of 54.02% of taking damage. With 36.93%, I have a chance of 60.47%. Thus the damage reduction is 10.7%. So even though you gave up 4% dodge in dimishing returns to gain 6.45% dodge, you ended up with a 10% damage reduction that scales with all boss hits and boss attack speeds.

Look at that, 10% damage reduction is equal to the dodge we gained and the dodge we lost in diminishing returns added together (6 + 4 = 10). You really aren't "losing" anything by continuing to gear towards dodge.

TLDR, to answer your question, you'd have to be above 50-55% (guessing on where the graph levels out and adding 15.09% undiminished dodge) dodge on your character screen before diminishing returns make additional dodge not worthwhile.

http://www.zalambar.com/warcraft_calculators/dodge

[Auroro]

I like what Earthworm said about the diminishing returns on dodge.

Right now, many bear have not seen where diminishing returns make additional dodge not worthwhile.

That magic number (45%) is made up to get people to shut up about how much is the right amount?

You can try to get as high as you can but you will never reach that point.

Same thing happen with armor, you could enchant your armor but you will never reach 75% because it is too high.

[earthwormjim]

I like what Earthworm said about the diminishing returns on dodge.

Right now, many bear have not seen where diminishing returns make additional dodge not worthwhile.

That magic number (45%) is made up to get people to shut up about how much is the right amount?

You can try to get as high as you can but you will never reach that point.

Same thing happen with armor, you could enchant your armor but you will never reach 75% because it is too high.

I'm at ~46.5% fully raid buffed . When my polearm procs, I think I'm at around 48-49%.

Armor diminishing returns are different from dodge though. Since it's not an avoidance stat, it really does become pointless to keep increasing it (enchants) at a certain point. I'm at 56k armor, the armor enchants add next to nothing since I'm quite far into diminishing returns.

[axxey]

Diminishing returns on armor? please elaborate.

[Yawning]

Armor diminishing returns are different from dodge though. Since it's not an avoidance stat, it really does become pointless to keep increasing it (enchants) at a certain point. I'm at 56k armor, the armor enchants add next to nothing since I'm quite far into diminishing returns.

Huh? DR is applied to armor for exactly the same reason that it is to avoidance. There is one point at which it becomes absolutely terrible (assuming a good amount of physical damage), and that's when you ht 75% reduction.

[Yohassakura]

Wait never mind... I see that it doesn't add in base dodge or race dodge at all.

I find that it should be called DR Calculator, not dodge calculator

[earthwormjim]

Huh? DR is applied to armor for exactly the same reason that it is to avoidance. There is one point at which it becomes absolutely terrible (assuming a good amount of physical damage), and that's when you ht 75% reduction.

I suppose you could look at armor damage reduction similarly to avoidance stats. The more damage reduction you gain, the longer your time to live is. So at higher armor values, each additional percentage in damage reduction becomes better and better. E.G. adding 500 armor when you're at 10,000 armor is just as good as adding 500 armor when you're at 55k armor, you'll get the same exact time to live increase (say plus .05 seconds or something, just throwing numbers out there).

The big thing from dodge though, is that 15% of it is not subject to diminishing returns at all.

[Shinz]

So. every bear i see must be clueless because bears are already dodge capped and no longer need any dodge. Mastery is best.

[Yohassakura]

So. every bear i see must be clueless because bears are already dodge capped and no longer need any dodge. Mastery is best.

That's funny because I haven't seen any bears at 116.890707% dodge or greater.
65.631440% is the cap for warriors/pallies/dks - theirs is split between dodge and parry, so parry is also 65.631440%.

[huth]

Huh? DR is applied to armor for exactly the same reason that it is to avoidance. There is one point at which it becomes absolutely terrible (assuming a good amount of physical damage), and that's when you ht 75% reduction.

I still don't quite understand why the 75% cap even exists... you would quickly run into unreachable amounts of armor after this point, even when you use the old vanilla formula, long before you reach 100%.

It could be helpful(though, seeing current armor values, probably unnecessary) for bear tanks in MoP for this hard cap to be removed or increased to 99%, especially if the Mastery remains as putting us on the Way of the Obstructing Rock for tanking.

[Yohassakura]

Looking at armor now:



Just try to get near there :P As seem as the only real armor comes from the items themselves, with no real +armor enchants, GL!

[huth]

Yeah, you'd need about 80 mastery or so to reach that.

Only goes to reinforce the point about the cap being pretty pointless, though.