The Importance/Redundancy of Player Levels

[Fencers]

thanks for your replies.
normally, a player will stop gaining new attributes from leveling when he hits max level and start gaining attributes from tiered gear. in your fantasy mmo, when would the player stop gaining attributes if levels do not exist? do they gain attributes per X mobs/quests and never stop?

Well, I was fond of a system from another MMO where players had a limited number of slots on gear. Each slot could be filled with a rune. However, the same rune couldn't repeat. To simplify things.

The runes were all flat; Fire Rune of Bashing +20 str, Molten Rune of Crits +10 str & 5 crit, Blazing Rune of Toughness +20 sta & +5 int, etc, etc. The system worked out great for keeping gear at a equal level per tier. Because all attributes were potentially useful regardless of class, one could mix & match the runes which suited their need & purpose. These runes and the components to create them were scattered... everywhere; crafted, world bosses, dungeons, rare spawns, raids, token gear, mini-games, etc.

For example, I played a priestly healing class but used runes to fashion myself as a melee tank who held threat by ranged magic attacks and mitigated damage via effective health/absorbs. The very same class however could heal and provide the raid with an endless mana battery, be a short range magic nuker, fury warrior-ish or be a CC machine.

Gear modification like that where we end up with the same relative power but skewed to different ends is ideal for me. Having players search all over the world doing many different things is just icing.

[darkwarrior42]

There are a lot of different systems to measure character growth... the single biggest advantage a level system like the one WoW uses is *supposed* to have is that they're the easiest to balance. Levels are discrete blocks of character power, and by restricting access to certain abilities/items/talents/feats/whatever to a specific level, you can easily meter character growth and provide challenges of appropriate power.

However, WoW atm is horribly unbalanced... different classes grow at different rates. Some classes have specific abilities that make them significantly more powerful, but these are not all gained at the same time, leading to jumps and gaps in character growth.


I don't necessarily care what system a game uses, and I like the look of the GW2 system a lot personally. What's important is that if characters are allowed to compete directly against each other, either there is a system in place to make sure there are similar levels of character growth present (such as level brackets in bgs), or to make sure everyone knows that no such system exists so you take your chances (such as rolling on a PvP server). If a level system is used, it is important to make sure that different classes at level X are still approximately balanced. WoW's complete abandonment of making sure balance exists between classes at lower levels undermines much of what a level system is supposed to do.



Even without levels, there can be caps on when a player stops gaining attributes... it all depends on how you gain the attributes in the first place. If it's from gear, then you simply restrict the gear. If it's from quests, then they can get stats without more quests. Whatever system you use, there can always be built-in limits... it just depends on how the designer(s) set the system up.

[Arkenaw]

I enjoy levels because I love the feeling of leveling up.

[Mkalafut]

As much as I hate carrot on a stick mechanics, I think removing levels is too big of a jump for people to get their heads around.

Pretty much that. People aren't ready for it yet, but GW2, much like GW1 is skill based. That little number by your name doesn't mean anything. The item level that the computer considers your gear doesn't matter. Skill does. Arena Net is basically destroying the necessity of levels but kind of sneakily throwing them in so that the idea isn't too bold or shunned.

Also Mif for moderator!

[Waltzinblack]

making you want to play it regardless of the lack of "levels".

This sort of is how GW1 works. The first 20 levels are a joke and it hardly feels like an achievement to reach it, in my case more of a relief. In fact, in the EotN expansion, if you are not level 20 then you're given a buff that pretty much makes you level 20 while in the zone.

It feels as if there are no levels already. Also, there isn't much that has a level restriction, it's when you reach it in the storyline when you can do certain things.

[Acquiesce of Telara]

I always wondered why so many games use levels, as opposed to something that might actually represent you. For instance, you reach level 80 and you're "done". What does "done" even mean? 60, 80, 85... they're a fairly arbitrary metric.

If a metric is necessary at all (I do believe it is, if for no other reason than familiarity's sake), I'd rather you have a percentage bar that represents your potential. It's still basically leveling up, but when you hit 100%, it means you've learned everything you need to know and have the strength/gear/talents to make a name for yourself or to live up to legacy, or whatever. Reaching your potential doesn't mean villagers no longer need your help, it simply represents your mastery of your profession or intent.

It'd also be a great way to lessen the requirement for mob kills and potential grinding. Earn .25% potential for each skill book you find, or 1% with each weapon unlock. New combination attacks discovered, etc.

Expansions needn't raise the cap by 5 or 10 levels under this system, just start the Potential Meter all over again for new content, or drop a player down by X%, based on the amount of new things to learn/power-up through. You're meeting new people in a new land, there's more to learn: Earn it, live up to your potential once again.

[SPeedy26]

I honestly don't mind lv's reaching a new lv is a nice feeling (for the most part).
anyway I beleve GW2 kept them to serve as a kind of guide to players, (ohh this place has lv Y and I'm only lv X I guess I'll come back later) plus ppl like the big phat numbers. That being said, I wish they did keep it at lv cap 20 like GW. Too me the player only being lv 20 represented the limit in which a mortal's power could reach after that he would have to learn from his experiences and outsmart the more ethereal beings (I'm looking at a certain fallen god when I say this :P).

I always wondered why so many games use levels, as opposed to something that might actually represent you. For instance, you reach level 80 and you're "done". What does "done" even mean? 60, 80, 85... they're a fairly arbitrary metric.

If a metric is necessary at all (I do believe it is, if for no other reason than familiarity's sake), I'd rather you have a percentage bar that represents your potential. It's still basically leveling up, but when you hit 100%, it means you've learned everything you need to know and have the strength/gear/talents to make a name for yourself or to live up to legacy, or whatever. Reaching your potential doesn't mean villagers no longer need your help, it simply represents your mastery of your profession or intent.

It'd also be a great way to lessen the requirement for mob kills and potential grinding. Earn .25% potential for each skill book you find, or 1% with each weapon unlock. New combination attacks discovered, etc.

Expansions needn't raise the cap by 5 or 10 levels under this system, just start the Potential Meter all over again for new content, or drop a player down by X%, based on the amount of new things to learn/power-up through. You're meeting new people in a new land, there's more to learn: Earn it, live up to your potential once again.

I'm liking the sound of this idea lets you and me team up and make millions you can do the ideas and the work, while I..... make the millions mwhahahaah

[Blackmist]

Levelling makes old content obsolete.

Levelling creates an artificial barrier to keep new players from end game content.

I like GW2's idea. The number next to your name should mean little aside from how much you've played. I'd like to see that in WoW tbh. At the moment questing is pretty poor because they don't think it matters. People will do it anyway because they need to level. If there was no levelling, they'd have to improve it. Hell, they could go all out SWTOR on that. You'd want to finish the quest chains because they were awesome, not because you'll get a blue sword that'll keep you going for another 5 levels...

[Squirrelbanes]

The interesting thing I see about levelling in GW2 is that - and I stress here that I mean at first glance - it (having 80 levels) almost feels like a contradiction when considered together with their focus on making a more skill based game than seen with traditional MMOs, and the things they have actively implemented to help achieve this - no trinity, less important of stats etc.

Now, traditionally - levelling unlocks abilities. It makes you stronger. Your stats increase. You pwn more. You get to end game. You can laugh at all the ignorant little lowbies.
This is the, by and large, the path of levelling in most MMOs.

GW2 doesn't focus on stats. Or becoming more powerful in the traditional MMO sense. i.e. getting gear and stat upgrades. They could, and of course did consider, not having any levels at all.

So what they've done by having 80 levels is, imo quite cleverly, gone for a mid-ground. They've significantly reduced the important of stats and made it a more skill based game...but kept in levels so that traditional MMOers will feel comfortable.

Lets face it...GW2 is a great leap forward. There re-writing a great many things that people have taken for granted. So...what do you do? Throw ppl out of the frying pan and into the fire of a totally new MMO style that doesn't have levels, stats etc. They'd leave. So, no. You ease them in a bit gently.
And over 80 levels they'll come to understand what GW2 is trying to do.

I think levelling was the thing Anet cared about changing the least tbh. The changes to skills, stats, trinity, questing etc were prob much more important to them...so they put levelling back in to make things easier for people coming from.......ahem.....more traditional games.

Toodles.

[Blznsmri]

Similarly, MOBAs have this type of introduction feature. Another game I played for years, simply had players visit trainers who would... erhm, train you in the art of blahblah skill.

GW: Factions had something similar once you got your Second Profession, you would go to Instructor Ng to earn your Profession Insignia (or whatever) and they would give you a few select abilities that taught you basic mechanics that your chosen professions could do (with the skills available at that time), snaring, enchantment (buff) removal, hexing, conditions (bleeding, crippled, burning, diseased, weakened, blinded, dazed), healing, and so on.

I don't remember if NF has something similar, they do have a few tutorials about how to command your heroes (as did EotN).

[SPeedy26]

Well, I was fond of a system from another MMO where players had a limited number of slots on gear. Each slot could be filled with a rune. However, the same rune couldn't repeat. To simplify things.

The runes were all flat; Fire Rune of Bashing +20 str, Molten Rune of Crits +10 str & 5 crit, Blazing Rune of Toughness +20 sta & +5 int, etc, etc. The system worked out great for keeping gear at a equal level per tier. Because all attributes were potentially useful regardless of class, one could mix & match the runes which suited their need & purpose. These runes and the components to create them were scattered... everywhere; crafted, world bosses, dungeons, rare spawns, raids, token gear, mini-games, etc.

For example, I played a priestly healing class but used runes to fashion myself as a melee tank who held threat by ranged magic attacks and mitigated damage via effective health/absorbs. The very same class however could heal and provide the raid with an endless mana battery, be a short range magic nuker, fury warrior-ish or be a CC machine.

Gear modification like that where we end up with the same relative power but skewed to different ends is ideal for me. Having players search all over the world doing many different things is just icing.

hey Fencers whats game is this? I'd lake to give it a try :P

[Mojo Risin]

While I don't have anything against leveling--it's never been an obstacle in my enjoyment of a game, rather the opposite--I wouldn't mind the system evolving.

It does feel a bit illogical that it isn't my skill with the blade or the arcane arts that distinguishes me as a fighter, but rather the abstract number placed above my head as I experience things.

A solution would be to focus more on skills. If I've successfully fought my way through several days of gameplay with a sword, then naturally my sword skill will have improved, and I can therefore complete more difficult content. The unlocking mechanism for such content could be handled out of sight, as it were.

Experience points could still be there in a way, as perhaps being more experienced will allow you to level skills above a certain level, etc.