Paragon 8/8 hc

[mrwingtipshoes]

Now check this out.

2 bikes are in the race.

The race rules don't tell anything about penalties for leaving the track, but it's impossible, as all area around the track is a swamp. That's because the host did not want the bikes to make a shortcut.

But then Bike 2 sees a small dry area, with a really, really small shortcut. And uses it. Because the host didn't even consider a possibility to leave a track, there are no written rules what to do with those who would.

And then, when Bike 2 enters dry shortcut, the host quickly writes a rule and disqualifies the bike.

Bike 1 wins.

For me it's a longer, but better comparison.

Except blizzard game out and said "Dont do that or we'll ban you" but yea ok.

[Ryme]

As such, why are people finding it so hard to accept that this may very well be a changing of the guard? I don't recall seeing this many desperate attempts to cling onto a guild and place them in theoretical Number 1 guild spot when Ensidia were eventually toppled.

Because it wasn't done in the most chaotic tier ever, it was a clear and indisputable change in world best during ICC - Paragon dominated Ensidia. Hopefully, in the next tier, we won't get any guild bans and a better race can be forged.

[Jadle]

As such, why are people finding it so hard to accept that this may very well be a changing of the guard? I don't recall seeing this many desperate attempts to cling onto a guild and place them in theoretical Number 1 guild spot when Ensidia were eventually toppled.

I guess the difference is Ensidia were beaten in a straight up race, where as Paragon very stupidly got themselves banned, which is throwing some doubt over who would or would not of won.

My Personal oppinion is Paragon would have won, being an ex raider in a guild that directly competed with them, I know how good they are, thats nto to say they can never be beaten, and I'm certainly not 100% sure they would have won if they hadn't (deservedly) got banned, but it's just my sneaking suspicion.

The fact remains KIN seized their opportunity and did very well to get the WF kill, it's just a shame they got it under these circumstances that have maybe put their achievment in a shade of grey. Which really isn't fair to them, coz you can only beat what is put in front of you, and they did a good job doing that.

I guess it's just a case of wait until next tier, then aslong as anyone doesn;t get themselves banned, we can really see who is best once and for all.

[Deleted]

Hope Blizzard keeps punishing guilds for exploits and not give different areas different lockout resets for testing purposes.

The amount of people who are intrested in world firsts is so small, that it is propably no concern at all for Blizzard when testing things etc.
It's not an esport like Starcraft or WoW PVP.

[Jadle]

As such, why are people finding it so hard to accept that this may very well be a changing of the guard? I don't recall seeing this many desperate attempts to cling onto a guild and place them in theoretical Number 1 guild spot when Ensidia were eventually toppled.

I guess the difference is Ensidia were beaten in a straight up race, where as Paragon very stupidly got themselves banned, which is throwing some doubt over who would or would not of won.

My Personal oppinion is Paragon would have won, being an ex raider in a guild that directly competed with them, I know how good they are, thats nto to say they can never be beaten, and I'm certainly not 100% sure they would have won if they hadn't (deservedly) got banned, but it's just my sneaking suspicion.

The fact remains KIN seized their opportunity and did very well to get the WF kill, it's just a shame they got it under these circumstances that have maybe put their achievment in a shade of grey. Which really isn't fair to them, coz you can only beat what is put in front of you, and they did a good job doing that.

I guess it's just a case of wait until next tier, then as long as anyone doesn't get themselves banned, we can really see who is best once and for all.

[Deleted]

Now check this out.

2 bikes are in the race.

The race rules don't tell anything about penalties for leaving the track, but it's impossible, as all area around the track is a swamp. That's because the host did not want the bikes to make a shortcut.

But then Bike 2 sees a small dry area, with a really, really small shortcut. And uses it. Because the host didn't even consider a possibility to leave a track, there are no written rules what to do with those who would.

And then, when Bike 2 enters dry shortcut, the host quickly writes a rule and disqualifies the bike.

Bike 1 wins.

For me it's a longer, but better comparison.

Except that in the case of LFR, Blizzard had stated multiple times that you would only be able to get items from a specific boss once per week.
In your example that would mean that it would have been explicitly stated that you may not leave the track.

[TJ]

The credibility of your opinion is greatly undermined by this rather shortsighted and naive point right here. You do realise that Paragon came out of pretty much nowhere too when they got LK25 heroic WF? Before that they were practically unheard of on everybody's radar with regards to challenging for World Firsts, just like Kin Raiders have been in the Dragon Soul raid. Just like Paragon in Wrath, they were a top raiding team, but not one of what people would consider 'the elite' that were challenging for top spot. In the light of these facts, by your logic, it should have been just as much of a surprise to you that Paragon came out of nowhere and suddenly became top guild for several tiers. As such, why is it so hard for you to accept that the exact same pattern is seemingly showing itself again with Kin Raiders? As you look over the history of the game, this is precisely how change happens. Don't ask me why, but that is simply the way it is. Just as Paragon seemingly popped out of nowhere to usurp Nihilum/Ensidia as the world's top guild to claim World Firsts miles ahead of the competition, so have Kin Raiders with this tier of raiding. It is quite simply, the nature of change and how the game works. No guild can be top forever. There is no subjectivity or opinion here. I am simply stating facts, facts I daresay, with a lot of evidence to support it. If you cannot grasp this then it is as clear as day that you have an inherently bias point of view towards Paragon, which flies right in the face of what you are claiming not to be.

My opinion isnt undermined from anywhere considering that Paragon claimed world 4th in tier 8, and 14th in tier 9 to then world 1st in tier 10, but also getting world 1st in one of the more prestigious achievements which actually warrants some credit in tier 9. In tier 12 we had what? 5 guilds (maybe more) competing for world 1st? and it could have gone to any of them. Therefore anyone from the top 5 (occasionally top ~7) could get a world 1st, so Paragon who were world 4th before hand getting it was nowhere near out of nowhere.

Kin on the other hand were ranked 14th in tier 11 (actually makes them sound closer than they were if you look at the kill dates of the end bosses) and 11th in tier 12, so them getting a world 1st does class as coming out nowhere since in general, its more of the top 4-5 who are competing for it. If anything id say your reply is undermined by how you havent done any research into why i apparently said theyve come from nowhere and why Paragon didnt in tier 10.

[Deleted]

The amount of people who are intrested in world firsts is so small, that it is propably no concern at all for Blizzard when testing things etc.
It's not an esport like Starcraft or WoW PVP.

Agreed on the part that Blizzard doesn't care about world first race. Estimating the amount of people interested in it is hard though.

[Deleted]

Because it wasn't done in the most chaotic tier ever, it was a clear and indisputable change in world best during ICC - Paragon dominated Ensidia. Hopefully, in the next tier, we won't get any guild bans and a better race can be forged.

But this simply comes with the territory. There is always hiccups like this in every WF race at the end of an expansion. Cry's of exploits and people getting banned as a result is nothing new to this game in end of tier WF races. It was no different to when Ensidia were (wrongly IMO but let's not open that can of worms) punished for the exploit on LK25 and subsequently received a ban. Who isn't to say that they would not have got WF on LK25 heroic were they not banned, and yet, I don't ever remember so many people going out of their way to theorise so extensively over who would have been World First if no bans were implemented like they have been here. I guess, in a nutshell, what I am saying is that this tier is not unique in how the WF race has been marred and affected by bans and exploits. Granted, maybe not so much as previous tiers, but regardless still significantly enough either way to majorly influence who claims top spot. So really, if were going to say that Kin Raiders were not out and out winners in this tier, then it's equally fair to apply the same logic and say that Paragon were no more out and out winners at the end of Wrath. So in the bigger picture, what's happened with this tier of raiding is no different to what's happened in the past. As such, I again ask the question - why are so many people (mainly blinded Paragon defenders) arguing as though it is?

[TJ]

But this simply comes with the territory. There is always hiccups like this in every WF race at the end of an expansion. Cry's of exploits and people getting banned as a result is nothing new to this game in end of tier WF races. It was no different to when Ensidia were (wrongly IMO but let's not open that can of worms) punished for the exploit on LK25 and subsequently received a ban. Who isn't to say that they would not have got WF on LK25 heroic were they not banned, and yet, I don't ever remember so many people going out of their way to theorise so extensively over who would have been World First if no bans were implemented like they have been here. I guess, in a nutshell, what I am saying is that this tier is not unique in how the WF race has been marred and affected by bans and exploits. Granted, maybe not so much as previous tiers, but regardless still significantly enough either way to majorly influence who claims top spot. So really, if were going to say that Kin Raiders were not out and out winners in this tier, then it's equally fair to apply the same logic and say that Paragon were no more out and out winners at the end of Wrath. So in the bigger picture, what's happened with this tier of raiding is no different to what's happened in the past. As such, I again ask the question - why are so many people (mainly blinded Paragon defenders) arguing as though it is?

Ensidias ban had nothing to do with their progress on heroic modes thats why, they were banned on normal lich king on the reset he was released for 3 days compared to the 8 that the guilds recieved this year on heroic mode progression. They were banned on a thursday which is a day after LKs release day, that means the week they were banned was a normal clear and was lifted on the Sunday 7th so they still had 3 days to kill lich king on normal which guilds were doing in 1 day. They killed it later in the week and resumed heroic mode progress the next week as they would have normally.

Thats why its not mentioned, because it didnt impact their heroic mode progress at all, and it definitely didnt stop them getting world first.

[Deleted]

Ensidias ban had nothing to do with their progress on heroic modes thats why, they were banned on normal lich king on the reset he was released for 3 days compared to the 8 that the guilds recieved this year on heroic mode progression. They were banned on a thursday which is a day after LKs release day, that means the week they were banned was a normal clear and was lifted on the Sunday 7th so they still had 3 days to kill lich king on normal which guilds were doing in 1 day. They killed it later in the week and resumed heroic mode progress the next week as they would have normally.

Thats why its not mentioned, because it didnt impact their heroic mode progress at all, and it definitely didnt stop them getting world first.

Regardless, you are arguing based purely on "what ifs'" "buts" and "maybes" which give way to an infinite possible number of variables. The reason people don't argue these sorts of points generally speaking is because it is endless and anything can be made to sound like it might have happened based on the most obscure and unlikely sequence of events. I could say "If Hitler wasn't born I wouldn't be here today" but the statement would be subject to so many untenable and, most importantly, unprovable events that it would be pointless even worth debating. In many cases, for the sake of productive discussion, people talk about facts. Then we are all on the same wavelength. That is not what is going on here. That is why people seem so desperate.

[TJ]

Regardless, you are arguing based purely on "what ifs'" "buts" and "maybes" which give way to an infinite possible number of variables. The reason people don't argue these sorts of points generally speaking is because it is endless and anything can be made to sound like it might have happened based on the most obscure and unlikely sequence of events. I could say "If Hitler wasn't born I wouldn't be here today" but the statement would be subject to so many untenable and, most importantly, unprovable events that it would be pointless even worth debating. In many cases, for the sake of productive discussion, people talk about facts. Then we are all on the same wavelength. That is not what is going on here. That is why people seem so desperate.

Whilst the Paragon argument is a "what if", i believe its a very strong what if and isnt purely on "what ifs'" "buts" and "maybes", but on Paragons history and rankings. If i said i believe <insert random guild thats behind on progression> would get world first then thats a wild shot in the dark, saying Paragon would have got it is believable. Its only speculation and opinion, albeit we will never know what would have happened, but me and many others believe Paragon would have got it, and if you dont then thats fine. I dont know why you're goign out of your way to try and make it sound like thats a bizarre idea and that we are wrong just because you disagree.